BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 2

[AnneFan]

I really don't get this. He quite literally outlines his entire motivation to Superman on the roof, yet everyone says he has no motivations,

Lex and Bruce have the same concerns, basically. Arming themselves against potential threats, chiefly Superman.

 

[Aquafinn90]

Lex and Bruce have the same concerns, basically. Arming themselves against potential threats, chiefly Superman.

oh I'm very aware of that. Its everyone else that isn't getting is. I can't listen to another person says Lex has no motivations. You don't even have to search for them, they are RIGHT there in the movie. Like, did anyone even watch the movie?

also, at what point can we stop tagging spoilers?

Also, LOVE that you are a Hathaway fan. Everyone tells me how much they hate her, I think she's fabulous.

 

[Cats]

I really don't get this. He quite literally outlines his entire motivation to Superman on the roof, yet everyone says he has no motivations,

And especially in the lab. Truthfully I'm starting to think half the people who graded the movie 5 and below weren't even paying attention.

 

[Aquafinn90]

And especially in the lab. Truthfully I'm starting to think half the people who graded the movie 5 and below weren't even paying attention.

I just don't get any of the criticisms of this movie. The only one I can understand is people being upset that these aren't the versions of Superman and Batman that they grew up with etc etc. I however don't have that problem as I've never read a comic book in my life, and I used to think Superman was campy and boring until he was reinvented for MOS. From a movie making standpoint I think its just about perfect, though I know most people disagree with me.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I really don't get this. He quite literally outlines his entire motivation to Superman on the roof, yet everyone says he has no motivations,

And especially in the lab. Truthfully I'm starting to think half the people who graded the movie 5 and below weren't even paying attention.

I heard the speech on the roof, yeah, that speech was clear as day.

First he goes devils, then he goes to Gods, and then he creates something too powerful he has no control of, that should be more powerful than Superman, he creates a devil of his own doing using his own blood on the corpse of the guy who wanted to kill him and every other human on the planet then places it in the regeneration matrix, and with no means to control it.

Killing that guy he feeds candy in his own house is random and not matched with his motives.

Hey Superman, I will kill your mom if you don't kill Batman, who I won't tell you that I want him to kill you, then I will kill your mom.



Alexander Luthor in a nutshell =

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

http://www.dorkly.com/post/77697/zack-snyder-batman-v-superman?ref=homepage


read this article this morning, damn. look i enjoyed parts of the film really frigging enjoyed but i personally felt there was a lot wrong with it. but some of the defense counter arguments put forth by synder just seem like a 5 year old sticking his fingers in her ears screaming na na na your wrong im right im amazing

 

[Aquafinn90]

I heard the speech on the roof, yeah, that speech was clear as day.

First he goes devils, then he goes to Gods, and then he creates something too powerful he has no control of, that should be more powerful than Superman, he creates a devil of his own doing using his own blood on the corpse of the guy who wanted to kill him and every other human on the planet then places it in the regeneration matrix, and with no means to control it.

Killing that guy he feeds candy in his own house is random and not matched with his motives.

Hey Superman, I will kill your mom if you don't kill Batman, who I won't tell you that I want him to kill you, then I will kill your mom.



Alexander Luthor in a nutshell =

Well it's not like he kills the Senator that he feeds candy to for a specific reason. He just happened to be a casualty of the Senate bombing.

As for having no means to control DD, no he didn't. but the point was he likely THOUGHT he could control it by using his blood to help create it. I picked up on that on my first viewing and I believe Snyder confirmed this as well.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I agree with 'Batman and Superman are better than flavor of the week as characters' (regardless of films quality), and talking about destroying planets.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Well it's not like he kills the Senator that he feeds candy to for a specific reason. He just happened to be a casualty of the Senate bombing.

No, he was a corpse with open eyelids, or in catatonic state in state Luthor, he was not in the hearing session.

As for having no means to control DD, no he didn't. but the point was he likely THOUGHT he could control it by using his blood to help create it. I picked up on that on my first viewing and I believe Snyder confirmed this as well.

So maybe it matched his motives, it didn't make me see a very competent planner.

 

[Cats]

First he goes devils, then he goes to Gods, and then he creates something too powerful he has no control of, that should be more powerful than Superman, he creates a devil of his own doing using his own blood on the corpse of the guy who wanted to kill him and every other human on the planet then places it in the regeneration matrix, and with no means to control it.

If you didn't flip just one page prior to this one, I think Keyser Sushi did a good job explaining the situation:

Spoiler

He talks about his dad punching him (and possibly doing even more unfortunate things to him...) so you know he's got daddy issues. He talks about how God didn't save him when that was going on, so he believes that God can't be both all good and all-powerful, but only one or the other. So that's another seed of distrust for power. And god-figures, of which Superman is certainly one. So it's obvious that he projects his anger towards God onto Superman, as well as his daddy issues (God is, after all, traditionally referred to as father).

It's possible that the half-hour of deleted scenes had more Lex stuff in it, but really, how is it difficult to understand a character's psychological motivations when he lays it out for you in literally EVERY SINGLE CONVERSATION HE HAS IN THE MOVIE WITH ANYBODY EVER.

Did you know that in real life, victims of abuse often become abusers themselves? That's why they say that abuse is something you pass on. It's fairly common knowledge, and it's also what Terrio and Snyder do with Lex here, in larger scale. He was tormented and now he's becoming a tormentor, a tormentor to the ultimate authority figure, a surrogate God, a stand-in for the biggest daddy of all. It's all in the movie, I just told you that. Twice.

You can insist that there's no background there to explain it but he literally talks about it every single time he opens his mouth, dude. It's the entire character.

Lex spent the whole movie trying to turn public opinion against Superman, to destroy his image in order to take him down. I think Doomsday was exactly what his name would imply. Lex talked to Senator Finch about "deterrants," which is the language traditionally associated with nuclear missiles, i.e. the entire Cold War where Russia had nukes aimed at the US and the US had nukes aimed at Russia and nobody would dare launch the nukes because it meant the other side would launch theirs too and pretty soon everybody ends up dead. Doomsday.

So I think the point of Doomsday was that, if Lex couldn't have his deterrent, if he couldn't control "god" or make him bend to his will, then he would kill this surrogate god, even if it meant destroying everything else along with him. When people are angry at God, where do they turn? What does Lex say when he unleashes Doomsday? "If man won't kill God, the devil will do it!" He knows he's destroying everything. He simply does not care. That's how much he hates Superman and everything that Superman represents to him.

Killing that guy he feeds candy in his own house is random and not matched with his motives.

Anyone who can feed candy to a senator obviously has the man under his thumb. That's precisely what's being shown to us in that moment. He's lording power over the senator.

Hey Superman, I will kill your mom if you don't kill Batman, who I won't tell you that I want him to kill you, then I will kill your mom.

He wants to see heroes tear each other to shreds because he doesn't believe in goodness and selflessness, he believes everyone has an agenda (much as he does). He thinks by turning Batman and Superman against each other, it will show the world their true colors so people will know better than to trust them. He's projecting his own hurt, anger and disappointment in life onto these two symbols of heroism in the world (with particular focus on Superman, being the slightly more heroic of the two).

 

[Supernova]

Yea Ive seen the film twice now and loved it even more the second time around. Since my opening weekend viewing I really have ignored people bashing the movie because everyone seems to be copying each other with what was popular to nitpick. My wife went the second time and had questions because she isnt into the comics but likes DC's more adult approach and once she had a better understanding of the flash and other parts she wanted to go back again because she got even more excited.

People really do like this film, its just there is a bigger portion of the GA who need to be educated and better prepared for what these films are gonna be and who the lesse known characters are.

 

[Aquafinn90]

No, he was a corpse with open eyelids, or in catatonic state in state Luthor, he was not in the hearing session.

wait I'm sorry, what?

 

[Supernova]

To be fair all lex luthors weve gotten on screen so far arent the best masterminds or really close to the comic counterpart. Theyve all yes all have come off goofy or borderline nut jobs.

 

[Kanon]

People really do like this film, its just there is a bigger portion of the GA who need to be educated and better prepared for what these films are gonna be and who the lesse known characters are.

If only the movies themselves were able to explain those things...

 

[Aquafinn90]

Yea Ive seen the film twice now and loved it even more the second time around. Since my opening weekend viewing I really have ignored people bashing the movie because everyone seems to be copying each other with what was popular to nitpick. My wife went the second time and had questions because she isnt into the comics but likes DC's more adult approach and once she had a better understanding of the flash and other parts she wanted to go back again because she got even more excited.

People really do like this film, its just there is a bigger portion of the GA who need to be educated and better prepared for what these films are gonna be and who the lesse known characters are.

yeah every single person I've talked to has really liked or loved the movie. But the common criticism though for all of them is "what the hell was up with that weird Nightmare sequence"?
The GA doesn't know that Justice League and the rest of the DCEU slate have been planned and they look at it as an unresolved plot point. I've had to explain that its a direct setup for Justice League to just about all of them

 

[Supernova]

If only the movies themselves were able to explain those things...

I hate to sound pompous but if people are going to any movie alittle research is required on the viewers part going in. If I go see a movie of any type I watch a few trailers, plot synopsis etc

 

[paulogonza]

cancel the entire DCEU now, and make a JL movie like superfriends

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

People really do like this film, its just there is a bigger portion of the GA who need to be educated and better prepared for what these films are gonna be and who the lesse known characters are.

ok wow seriously if someone doesn't agree with you or your opinions they need to be educated

these films are superhero movies and yes while they can tell amazing complex heartfelt stories when it boils down to the basics they are men and women in colorful tights beating on each other. people dont "need to be educated" after the story if the story can not put its narrative across effectively within its own confines it is a badly told story.

 

[Beatnation]

cancel the entire DCEU now, and make a JL movie like superfriends

It's the only solution

 

[javonstokess]

I hate to sound pompous but if people are going to any movie alittle research is required on the viewers part going in. If I go see a movie of any type I watch a few trailers, plot synopsis etc

If you need to research a movie before you go in to understand it, then it's a terrible script with terrible direction.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a relatively convoluted comic book, but the movie is easy to understand and requires no previous knowledge of the comic book.

At this point, people are just making excuses for BvS's shortcomings.

 

[Cats]

If only the movies themselves were able to explain those things...

DC comics have such massive lores. If they bothered to explain everything in the span of 2hours, we wouldn't get very deep at all. Just think about it; we've had 8 Batman live action movies since 1989 and aside from that one shot of a vandalized Robin outfit, we haven't seen Jason Todd, Oracle, Nightwing, Tim Drake, Damien Wayne, Azrael etc even tho many of those characters have become staple in Batman comics. And that's just Batman alone, we haven't even touched on the rest. I'd rather DC keep going at it than have to baby it all down, so much that what could've been explored in one movie had to be split into 2-3 movies, spread over several years. Maybe I'm selfish but I don't want to wait that long, especially at the risk of these actors getting old or quitting, and WB possibly deciding to end the series. If the GA is interested, they will go look for DC material to understand it all better. We're living in the age of the internet, information is a mere click away. If they're not willing to do that, then I doubt they would've been fans of the material at all. Why should the fans sacrifice everything for them?

 

[Supernova]

ok wow seriously if someone doesn't agree with you or your opinions they need to be educated

these films are superhero movies and yes while they can tell amazing complex heartfelt stories when it boils down to the basics they are men and women in colorful tights beating on each other. people dont "need to be educated" after the story if the story can not put its narrative across effectively within its own confines it is a badly told story.

First calmn down I never said if someone agrees or disagrees with me they need to be educated, I said alittle research is required from viewers going in. Im not saying anyone is dumb or stupid, Im saying if people like my wife saw the film and got the motivations and what the characters were trying to do but had questions about tie ins and easter eggs.

How many people really knew who the hell thanos was at the end of avengers one? Im willing to bet alot people went home and googled him or asked there friends for more insight. Especially once they saw or heard of the infinty gauntlet.

 

[Kanon]

I hate to sound pompous but if people are going to any movie alittle research is required on the viewers part going in. If I go see a movie of any type I watch a few trailers, plot synopsis etc

If you need to research a movie before you go in to understand it, then it's a terrible script with terrible direction.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a relatively convoluted comic book, but the movie is easy to understand and requires no previous knowledge of the comic book.

At this point, people are just making excuses for BvS's shortcomings.

True. Any knowledge required to enjoy or understand the story, should be presented by the story. If the story doesn't, it's either poorly told, or it's not actually required.

 

[TripleJ]

If you need to research a movie before you go in to understand it, then it's a terrible script with terrible direction.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a relatively convoluted comic book, but the movie is easy to understand and requires no previous knowledge of the comic book.

At this point, people are just making excuses for BvS's shortcomings.

No there weren't able to....I know a lot of people who enjoyed the movie but were just confused the hell out of all the comic book elements.

I don't blame them. It's almost impossible to explain all of the comic book lore, particularly to GA, through 1-2 hour movie.

Heck even comic book fans get confused by some story lines (*ahem* Grant Morrison's recent works *ahem*).

The difference is that GOTG was more fun, in many ways than BvS. Had BvS been as fun as GOTG, GA would have supported the film (a lot more) even if the reviews were abysmal.

I am not making any excuses by the way - Both BvS and GOTG are a lot more enjoyable if you already knew about the lore. It's just that GOTG is a more enjoyable film.

 

[Supernova]

If you need to research a movie before you go in to understand it, then it's a terrible script with terrible direction.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a relatively convoluted comic book, but the movie is easy to understand and requires no previous knowledge of the comic book.

At this point, people are just making excuses for BvS's shortcomings.

not true at all, as well how do you know its a terrible script and directing if you havent even seen it yet as movie goer going in?

Gaurdians was a very basic scifi story and easy to get into as a viewer for anyone and pretty straight forward unlike this movie which had alot going on. Also why the villian was generic and I know alot of people who had no idea who he or thanos were. The only hurdle that movie had to face was getting people to believe in a talking racoonand tree. Not too mention they struck gold with chris pratt as aleading man

Shortcomings? Please enlighten me outisde of the ussual nitpicking ive heard online.