BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 295

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No offense, but this is a copout. I hate to do it, but when you look at Marvel movies, forget their tone, they literally get to the heart and spirit of their characters. They don't necessarily force their characters to act in a way that betrays their spirit just to fit a story.

Captain America acts like Captain America. I remember a time when people said that Cap was "unrelatable" and hard to adapt to other forms of media.

Same with Thor. "He's a god, it's hard to relate to him". Heard that quite a bit.

WB refuses to stick with the foundation of a character for anyone other than Batman (and even that is iffy sometimes).

How is it a copout?

Snyder took the essence of the Superman and Batman mythos and condenced it down to tell a story he wanted to tell.

How is SUPERMAN NOT Superman in BvS? He is selfless, loving, loyal, heroic, humble... Not Superman?

Batman is an older angrier version that has lost his way a bit and finds redemption...

It is not intended as a retelling of already told stories in comics, books, movies, but it's own, new story.

I am sure there are many who hate the Miller stories because that' not their Batman or Superman...but there is no denying they are popular...

I for one would welcome different live action versions of these characters in different stories. I know WB can't really do that, but that's why we get animated stories, maybe a Pixar style version or like this new WOW animated/live action only do it all animated...maybe motion capture. Could really have fun with that.
 
Nobody reports Batman killing in Batman Returns either
The guys in the back of the truck survived instead of being torso away from thighs.
So yeah, he probably didn't kill.
 
I still stand by he hasn't killed.
No body reports in the movie.
And that guy he marked early on was not found dead.

I am happy to say he doesn't murder. People die and I am ok with that.

Like Dirty Harry said, there's nothin wrong with killin, as long as the right people get killed...

( I know...BUT THE BATMAN CODE !...:cwink:)
 
Nobody reports Batman killing in Batman Returns either

and even the killing batman did in batman returns were at least more "justified."
penguin's gang was terrorizing and attacking civilians at the time. batman comes in to take them out and save lives.

in bvs, aside from the scene where he's going to save martha, all the other kills he committed were not in the service of protecting innocent lives from immediate danger.

it's a characterization that strays way too far from even the more brutal versions of batman. and it's just bad writing.
 
But where did they pull this notion from? It doesn't correlate to the character's comics mythology. Which means they willfully chose to do a 180 on the character at a conceptual level. Which makes him not Superman, but Dr. Manhattan.


Yep. Superman stories aren't about "how would the world respond to a god who might be good" they're about "what would a good man do if he was given godlike powers." If the filmmakers wanted to touch on the first theme as an original concept of theirs, that's fine. But you can't do that by replacing the second theme, which is the crux of the character.

1. They got it from their imaginations. But, also one of the basic ideas of Superman:

That he's an alien with godlike powers, who was raised as a human, and decides to help humanity.

They wanted to explore/emphasize an aspect of the character that (due to Superman always being portrayed as a Jesus-like figure of perfection, and being immediately accepted by everyone except Lex) is rarely, if ever, explored:

His own humanity, and how the world sees him. They didn't want to recycle the same old take that's been used in Superman adaptations since the 1940s

2. If you honestly thought they were trying to say he's like Doctor Manhattan (a cold, godlike being with no real attachment to Earth, and who is often willing to leave it behind for his own selfish reasons), you just didn't get it.

And I hate to say that since its become almost like an insult and a cheap defense to people who don't like MOS/BvS, but it's the truth.

Snyder pairs heavy Jesus imagery with scenes of a Superman/Clark Kent that makes very human mistakes is clearly emotionally vulnerable. That, to drive home the idea that this Superman, at his core, is NOT a god. He's not Jesus. And while he is from another world, Clark Kent is (for all intents and purposes) human.

It's a heavy contrast of how the world sees him vs how he truly is.

Quite literally, God vs. Man.


3. Lastly, they haven't abandoned the idea of Superman's story being "what a good man would do if he was given godlike powers" They've shown that this Clark Kent is very good natured, and just wants help people. Even from a young age, he was willing to help people (at risk of exposing his powers) without hesitation. And while he honored his Earth dad by not coming out to the world until absolutely necessary, he was still helping people.

This is still very much that story. But its also "what if people hated him for doing the right thing?" Or rather, "what if everyone judged him by what he is, rather than what he does?".
 
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Funny, that was probably the one and only real "human", "happy" part of the movie involving Superman.

Wait...so making mistakes, questioning yourselves and your actions...all of that aren't human?

Because I certainly can relate to that.

I didn't know you were one a perfect human being. I am sorry, then.
 
1. They got it from their imaginations. They wanted to explore/emphasize an aspect of the character that (due to Superman almost always being portrayed as a Jesus-like figure of perfection, and immediately accepted by everyone except Lex) is rarely, if ever, explored:

His own humanity, and how the world sees him. They didn't want to recycle the same old take that's been used in Superman adaptations since the 1940s

2. If you honestly thought they were trying to say he's like Doctor Manhattan (a cold, godlike being with no real attachment to Earth, and who is often willing to leave it behind for his own selfish reasons), you just didn't get it.

And I hate to say that since its become almost like an insult to people who don't like MOS/BvS, but it's truth.

Snyder pairs heavy Jesus imagery with scenes of a Superman/Clark Kent that makes very human mistakes is clearly emotionally vulnerable. That, to drive home the idea that this Superman, at his core, is NOT a god. He's not Jesus. And while he is from another world, Clark Kent is (for all intents and purposes) human.

It's a heavy contrast of how the world sees him vs how he truly is.

God vs. Man.


And lastly, they haven't abandoned the idea of Superman's story being "what a good man would do if he was given godlike powers" They've shown that this Clark Kent is very good natured, and just wants help people. Even from a young age, he was willing to help people (at risk of exposing his powers) without hesitation. And while he honored his Earth dad by not coming out to the world until absolutely necessary, he was still helping people.

This is still very much that story. But its also "what if people hated him for doing the right thing?" Or rather, "what if not everyone loved him for doing the right thing".

:up:......Agreed in all counts.
 
Most of the Bat kills are (even though heinously grasping at straws some) mostly defensible. There is however one that completely isn't.

He runs a car into a trailer then grapples said car miles along the road into another car. That is murder.
 
Most of the Bat kills are (even though heinously grasping at straws some) mostly defensible. There is however one that completely isn't.

He runs a car into a trailer then grapples said car miles along the road into another car. That is murder.

nah...he flips it onto another car !

...they "could have" survived...

I always found it funny that there are scenes in other movies that are similar but nobody ever complained.

Hellboy - a GOOD GUY right? To save one person from a speeding car...he punches the hood - flipping the car over his head...:cwink:

In Fantastic 4 - the Thing - a GOOD GUY- stops a bus by ramming and running into it...

could have and should have killed those people...


But that's the point of THIS Batman...he is broken. His rules are breaking. He is tired of his rules hamstring his efforts. He IS not being Batman...and that is the point.
 
How is it a copout?

Snyder took the essence of the Superman and Batman mythos and condenced it down to tell a story he wanted to tell.

How is SUPERMAN NOT Superman in BvS? He is selfless, loving, loyal, heroic, humble... Not Superman?

Batman is an older angrier version that has lost his way a bit and finds redemption...

It is not intended as a retelling of already told stories in comics, books, movies, but it's own, new story.

I am sure there are many who hate the Miller stories because that' not their Batman or Superman...but there is no denying they are popular...

I for one would welcome different live action versions of these characters in different stories. I know WB can't really do that, but that's why we get animated stories, maybe a Pixar style version or like this new WOW animated/live action only do it all animated...maybe motion capture. Could really have fun with that.

No offense, but even in Frank Miller's version of old Batman, he wasn't angry enough to start blowing away people left and right. Hell, Miller even makes it a point to say in TDKR that Batman HATES guns and killing.

And, yes, Superman is all those things, but he is even more so "warm, full of heart and empathizes with humanity". Snyder's Superman is more alien than Man.

BTW, how humble is your Superman if he says lines like "If I wanted you dead, I could have killed you at anytime"?
 
i was wondering, do we know for sure that this Batman ever had no-kill codes?
 
^ I'm okay with "If I wanted it, you'd be dead already"

But I'm a wierd Superman fan ;)
 
No offense, but even in Frank Miller's version of old Batman, he wasn't angry enough to start blowing away people left and right. Hell, Miller even makes it a point to say in TDKR that Batman HATES guns and killing.

But that's the point of THIS Batman...he is broken. His rules are breaking. He is tired of his rules hamstring his efforts. He IS NOT being Batman...and that is the point.

And, yes, Superman is all those things, but he is even more so "warm, full of heart and empathizes with humanity". Snyder's Superman is more alien than Man.

That is also the point of the story. SOME view him more as Alien than Man...Batman included...at first. Arc.



BTW, how humble is your Superman if he says lines like "If I wanted you dead, I could have killed you at anytime"?

He doesn't need to be humble in that scene or all the time. He was trying to get Batman's attention and let him know that if he WAS a threat, he "could have" killed him already.
 
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i was wondering, do we know for sure that this Batman ever had no-kill codes?

If he's "Batman" he should have it.

Sorry if I'm so adamant about it...I think it's one of the most integral parts of the character. It's what sets him, Superman and Spider-man apart from others.

IMO (and most comic book writers) Batman doesn't take lives because it not only sets him apart from the lunatics he faces, but because he values ALL life; which is why he'll try and save the Joker or Two-Face's life. Bruce believes all life is valuable and a small part of him believe in the redemption process.

It's crazy that Daredevil got Batman right more than DC did.
 
i was wondering, do we know for sure that this Batman ever had no-kill codes?

Only because Alfred says "new rules"?

But then Bruce says: We are criminals - Always been criminals...nothing has changed.

Alfred replies: "Everything's changed"... (bigger meaning)
 
He doesn't need to be humble there or all the time. He was trying to get Batman's attention and let him know that if he WAS a threat, he "could have" killed him already.

...sorry, I just don't agree with this. Honestly, I don't think Superman would have even let that fight get to that point.
 
...sorry, I just don't agree with this. Honestly, I don't think Superman would have even let that fight get to that point.

well he did so...


And then you don't have BvS...You have a different movie. Not even TDKR. Batman was just as obnoxious and Superman slammed that old guy around pretty good... not your Superman either?

Snyder wanted to bring this story to the screen. You just wanted to see a different story. It is coming. I am sure there will be a different SUPERMAN in JL.


My point being, you are injecting YOUR Superman into THIS story.

He was trying to show that Batman had no chance and to stop fighting so he could talk to him.

Now I would have added a few more... "Bruce, please"... "Stop" "we need to save her" while they were fighting.

Batman ignores the pleas. He can't hear them through his anger.

Superman is just trying to stop Batman and get him to listen...

He does it in a very entertaining way...
 
well he did so...


My point being, you are injecting YOUR Superman into THIS story.

He was trying to show that Batman had no chance and to stop fighting so he could talk to him.

Now I would have added a few more... "Bruce, please"... "Stop" "we need to save her" while they were fighting.

Batman ignores the pleas. He can't hear them through his anger.

Superman is just trying to stop Batman and get him to listen...

He does it in a very entertaining way...

Everyone keeps saying "you're injecting YOUR Superman" and that's ridiculous.

There is a foundation that every character is built on. EVERY fictional character. Yes, you can add and strip away things, but the foundation is what makes them who they are and why they resonate.

In darn near every version of Superman that aims to be "Superman" (not including Elseworlds), Clark is the ultimate good guy. There were probably 100 different ways he could have stopped Bruce and get him to hear what he has to say.

Seriously, just think about it for a second: he approaches him and basically says "wait" once. Bruce does some stuff and when Clark finally gets close enough to actually talk to him...he pushes him 30ft back and then tackles him through a building.

I get that you enjoyed the movie and nothing I say is going to change that, but you can't knock the bad writing involved with that scene/fight. It basically requires both individuals to be murderous lunatics.
 
I love the argument that you don't understand the story, stop applying the character of Superman to this story. That is the point. The story is a flawed mess, that doesn't understand the characters it is adapting. The script being flawed does not suddenly wipe away the flaws in the characters.
 
I still stand by he hasn't killed.
No body reports in the movie.
And that guy he marked early on was not found dead.

It's such a stretch to say he didn't though. How many movies go out of their way to show you body reports? The confirmations are probably in the r-rated cut. They had to imply it to keep it pg-13
 
I love the argument that you don't understand the story, stop applying the character of Superman to this story. That is the point. The story is a flawed mess, that doesn't understand the characters it is adapting. The script being flawed does not suddenly wipe away the flaws in the characters.

I know, it's crazy.

You can go up to a 10 year old kid and they'll explain who Superman is better than Snyder's "version".
 
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