BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - Part 302

[MyDudeSpidey]

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand....

 

[Verick808]

For all those fans accusing others of actively wanting DC to fail (critics as well), you better believe those same fans are just waiting, praying, for Marvel to slip up in a major way. Seriously. True colors will be revealed if that day ever comes.

I don't know. A lot of people consider TIH and atleast one of the Iron Man films failures. Not to mention Thor 2. Pretty much nobody I know offline likes those films. Makes me wonder how every one of them avoided a rotten. Admittedly I enjoyed TIH. That's like 1 for 15 though that's like 7 percent of my friends.
BvS is at about 75 percent. 100 if you consider a 6 a passing score. Come to think of it ASM2 is more popular amongst my friends as well.

 

[Verick808]

Spoiler

That didn't look very good in my opinion.

 

[StormC]

Why make CMB movies at all if you're stripping the genre of one its main components? Kubrick brought an artistry to the horror genre in The Shining that had some critics panning it.

Movies and comic books have completely different storytelling languages. I'd rather have a good movie that knows its rules (and when to break them) than a director that focuses so much on visuals that he forgets how to make a good movie.

It's also a good way to only please diehards and scare off the GA, who are the main source of money on these movies.

And never try to compare Stanley Kubrick to Zack Snyder because that doesn't bode well for anybody.

I don't know. A lot of people consider TIH and atleast one of the Iron Man films failures. Not to mention Thor 2. Pretty much nobody I know offline likes those films. Makes me wonder how every one of them avoided a rotten. Admittedly I enjoyed TIH. That's like 1 for 15 though that's like 7 percent of my friends.
BvS is at about 75 percent. 100 if you consider a 6 a passing score. Come to think of it ASM2 is more popular amongst my friends as well.

Are you familiar with the phrase "anecdotal evidence?"

 

[Tacit Ronin]

It's not even true anyways. The Russos have a perfect blend of comic book aesthetic and grounded verisimilitude. His points only apply to Nolan.

 

[StormC]

Agreed. I always felt that TWS was the perfect blend of the gritty, grounded feel of the Nolan films and the colorful, lighthearted tone of the MCU movies. CW built off that even moreso. After IW they'll have made quite a name for themselves as directors, though nobody could blame them for being burnt out and not wanting to touch the genre again.

 

[DreddFan]

That didn't look very good in my opinion.

Agreed, and again I'm not trying to put down the Russo Bros.(COMMUNITY!!!), Winter Soldier is one of the best CBM; in the tier right below Dredd, BvS, MoS, and Returns. but I've seen better visual homages on CW's Flash than what is linked above.

 

[rashad]

Sebastian Stan apparently enjoyed BvS.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...whether-bucky-barnes-and-cap-are-in-love.html

 

[The Joker]

Sebastian Stan apparently enjoyed BvS.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...whether-bucky-barnes-and-cap-are-in-love.html

His brain must still be suffering the effects of Hydra's meddling

 

[AndrewOz]

See, I think this realism concept is misunderstood by many people. I think the production means that they want to treat the situations and reactions as realistically as possible...how would the world truly react to a SUPERMAN, just as Perry White says to Lois and not how real they can get the physics to make sense.

The Maturity of BvS, for me is in the handling of the myth, comparisons and religious metaphors. The subject of the world treating this alien like a god, his reluctance to be a "visible" hero and finally his acceptance of his fate. Sure, it can be viewed as heavy handed or not heavy handed enough but it was good for me. Not a perfect film, but very enjoyable and interesting and had exciting visuals and action and poignant/touching moments...for me.

There IS a lot of thought put into the depth of the storytelling, I only wish it was done more clearly or in a manor so more people could appreciate it.

I suppose it depends on what is more important to the viewer as to how much they can let slide.

We're not talking about physics as evidence of lack of realism, we're just having some fun kicking ideas around to explain how powers in the movie work, "realistically".

Movie realism, especially in CBM's, to me is all about character portrayal, having people within the movie behave realistically, understandably, no matter how unbelievable the situation.
I can actually explain away many of the cited issues in this film, if I add a few bridging scenes in my head.
For example, Lois deciding to recover the spear.
This is often cited as an example of poor storytelling. What made her decide to retrieve it after throwing it away?
If they cut a few seconds showing her checking her phone, that would explain it for me.
There were news articles covering Doomsday's emergence from the Kryptonian ship. If Lois saw those on her phone, it wouldn't take much thought for her to conclude he's likely a Kryptonian threat and the spear might be useful.
But they didn't show that.
The audience should not have to invent scenes in their head to justify the subsequent actions.
It's not the same as a movie being deliberately vague about character motivations in order to get the audience to challenge their own sense of morality to interpret the themes.
She's simply fetching a pointy stick she just threw away.
It's just bad storytelling. The extended cut may address it though and remove this narrative issue.

The maturity in BvS for me is lacking due to the lack of balance in the narrative.
It's heavily skewed to the negative.
It is unrealistic to me in the way it portrays Superman's reaction to the world and the world's reaction to him because of that.
The Miller-esque talking heads moments touch on numerous themes, mostly challenging, interesting, but still negative.
There is a comment in there about him not being a Christ figure or a demon, but maybe just a man trying to do the right thing. The reporter outside the Capitol also says to Scoot that many people would call Superman their hero.
The movie does expose many interesting ideas and themes, but fails to expound adequately, or at all, on most of them.
There isn't enough time spent on the positive side of the dynamic to impart the balance requisite for me to regard it as mature storytelling.
It's realistic to portray that many people, especially those in power, would be terrified of Superman and seek ways to limit or control his actions.
Johns's relatively light "Secret Origin" arc had Lois's General father actively trying to murder Superman in the name of national security, regardless of his massive popularity and overt heroism.
He also showed the relative adulation of the general public and Superman's discomfort and attempt to address that.
By giving public speeches.
There are decades of Superman stories, far more realistically handled than BvS, that address all of these mature and interesting themes.
Snyder's Superman doesn't seem to have spent any time trying to address anything since the end of MoS.
Which does not fit the Superman shown at the end of that movie. It also, to me, is an unrealistic portrayal of a normal person's reaction under the circumstances presented in the movie. Every time his actions are publicly questioned, he hides?
Sure, he finally shows up to address the Senate inquiry, but if it is based on the events in Africa, they've flown in a survivor from the Government massacred village to testify, where is Lois's testimony?
An American citizen and the only eye-witness to the events and she's neither called first thing before the committee or written an article explaining the event?
Unrealistic to me. Extremely.

It's 2 years since the end of MoS.
People are mentioned to have accepted Superman as a hero, but they only show him being dragged down by the subsequent negativity surrounding the "Superman Incident" in Africa.
The handling of that story is also poor IMO.
They never really give a coherent explanation for what he's being held "accountable" for.
Again, I can create a plausible justification for it in my own mind (have outlined a few in previous posts) but I shouldn't be creating explanations in my head for pivotal plot points that should be competently explained.

Contextually, it makes no sense to me that the US Senate is holding hearings about un-clarified accusations relating to actions in a foreign country, 18 months after the end of MoS and the deaths of thousands of U.S. citizens on U.S. soil.
The story would make far more sense if the U.S. Senate were holding hearings about trying to create some specific rules for Superman in regard to his actions on U.S. soil, or the U.N. leading it if it was to apply globally. The "Metropolis Accords" if you will.
I could keep going, but that's the general idea.
If there's a 4 hour film that we haven't seen, I would find it easy to believe that many of these issues would be addressed, but expecting to be able to take 4 hrs to justify narrative choices on screen is in itself unrealistic.

So, I can absolutely let issues of physics slide. I'm happily prepared to create my own internal justifications for those (as long as the film doesn't contradict it's own attempts to explain powers as MoS did) and think it's a basic requirement for CBM's in general
But contextually realistic scenarios and character reactions are required for my suspension of disbelief, not just in CBM's

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Sebastian Stan apparently enjoyed BvS.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...whether-bucky-barnes-and-cap-are-in-love.html

Did he suffer from head injuries in one of his grueling action sequences?

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

"Disney has been continually paying critics to attack Non MCU movies. MCU movies are safe. They're not challenging at all. Just like a comic book movie is "supposed to be". They're not divisive or thought provoking. First they bashed Batman V Superman.They cleared BvS out of the way, gave Civil War (which wasn't a perfect film) an Oscar, now they're going to work on moving Apocalypse out the way...then they get offended when they're accused of accepting gifts. Deadpool would have also suffered the same fate however it was released in February and was not an immediate threat."

I salute the troll who came up with this petition. S/he is mighty.

 

[Vartha]

heh my neighbor's Ex's car. the inside door handles are yellow too. lol

 

[C. Lee]

I salute the troll who came up with this petition. S/he is mighty.

Mighty stupid.

 

[AndrewOz]

If this conspiracy theory helps people make peace with the terrible reviews their movie got, all the power to them.

Obviously, Fox payed Disney's Review Toll for Deadpool, (which from now on will be referred to as the RT Ransom Fee) then decided they didn't need to, or couldn't afford to, for AoA

You know it makes sense!!

 

[FunkMiller]

Is this an act of trolling? Superman and Batman are not Avengers, soldiers, agents of shield, whatever....they are SUPERMAN and BATMAN.

Different characters. It's such a lousy defense when people want every character or hero or villain to act the exact same, with the same outlook on life. How boring. And such a weak argument.

DC Fanboys arguing that Batman should kill because Marvel characters do. The irony is delicious.

 

[AndrewOz]

Did he suffer from head injuries in one of his grueling action sequences?

He's just laying the groundwork, establishing evidence in his compensation claim for head injuries resulting from the Audi commercial shoot.

 

[Travesty]

heh my neighbor's Ex's car. the inside door handles are yellow too. lol

Is that a track car or a daily driver?

 

[TeeKay]

Spoiler

Hhhnnnnngggg.

 

[souperman]

We're not talking about physics as evidence of lack of realism, we're just having some fun kicking ideas around to explain how powers in the movie work, "realistically".

Agreed! And I agree with a lot of your analysis of the below issues and will attempt to add some POVs.

Movie realism, especially in CBM's, to me is all about character portrayal, having people within the movie behave realistically, understandably, no matter how unbelievable the situation.
I can actually explain away many of the cited issues in this film, if I add a few bridging scenes in my head.
For example, Lois deciding to recover the spear.
This is often cited as an example of poor storytelling. What made her decide to retrieve it after throwing it away?
If they cut a few seconds showing her checking her phone, that would explain it for me.
There were news articles covering Doomsday's emergence from the Kryptonian ship. If Lois saw those on her phone, it wouldn't take much thought for her to conclude he's likely a Kryptonian threat and the spear might be useful.
But they didn't show that.

Lois knows something is happening at the ship because S&B discuss it and B tells S that he needs to go to the ship to stop L from whatever he is doing. Lois then hears the loud growls and bellows of DD and sees the fireballs of heat vision and breath from DD. She must not be too far from the action because 1. B was coming for the spear and crashed not too far away. 2. When S stops his attack on DD and hears Lois drowning, he flys down to the building which appears not very far off. There is a shot of Lois looking at the explosions and she is a reporter after all and has seen Kryptonian sh** going down. I agree it is light and they "should have" shown her actually seeing and reacting to DD. I agree, Perry "could have" called her phone as she watched the fight start and say- "Lois, are you still in Gotham? Get the hell out of there...There's a Kyrptonian monster on the loose - Lois says "I see it..I have no way back" or something like that, adds some feeling of peril.

The audience should not have to invent scenes in their head to justify the subsequent actions.
It's not the same as a movie being deliberately vague about character motivations in order to get the audience to challenge their own sense of morality to interpret the themes.
She's simply fetching a pointy stick she just threw away.
It's just bad storytelling. The extended cut may address it though and remove this narrative issue.

I hope there is more reaction and transition shots as well.

The maturity in BvS for me is lacking due to the lack of balance in the narrative.
It's heavily skewed to the negative.
It is unrealistic to me in the way it portrays Superman's reaction to the world and the world's reaction to him because of that.
The Miller-esque talking heads moments touch on numerous themes, mostly challenging, interesting, but still negative.
There is a comment in there about him not being a Christ figure or a demon, but maybe just a man trying to do the right thing. The reporter outside the Capitol also says to Scoot that many people would call Superman their hero.
The movie does expose many interesting ideas and themes, but fails to expound adequately, or at all, on most of them.
There isn't enough time spent on the positive side of the dynamic to impart the balance requisite for me to regard it as mature storytelling.
It's realistic to portray that many people, especially those in power, would be terrified of Superman and seek ways to limit or control his actions.
Johns's relatively light "Secret Origin" arc had Lois's General father actively trying to murder Superman in the name of national security, regardless of his massive popularity and overt heroism.
He also showed the relative adulation of the general public and Superman's discomfort and attempt to address that.
By giving public speeches.
There are decades of Superman stories, far more realistically handled than BvS, that address all of these mature and interesting themes.
Snyder's Superman doesn't seem to have spent any time trying to address anything since the end of MoS.
Which does not fit the Superman shown at the end of that movie. It also, to me, is an unrealistic portrayal of a normal person's reaction under the circumstances presented in the movie. Every time his actions are publicly questioned, he hides?

I think he reacted understandably due to the circumstances and is not hiding as much as reflecting. The narrative is clear to me although it could be better or cleaner. There are bags of mature metaphors and morals as well as fantastic imagery and visuals in BvS although I admit it does sometimes suffer from being rushed.

Sure, he finally shows up to address the Senate inquiry, but if it is based on the events in Africa, they've flown in a survivor from the Government massacred village to testify, where is Lois's testimony?
An American citizen and the only eye-witness to the events and she's neither called first thing before the committee or written an article explaining the event?
Unrealistic to me. Extremely.

Lois for sure should be testifying and the only valid reason for her not being in the hearing is that she wasn't called. Since Lex was behind the whole thing, the only valid reason for her not being there is because his lackey (Finche's co-chair) didn't allow it at Lex's instruction (maybe to save her for later trapping Superman)...and IF she was there she would have been killed. I think THIS hearing was to hear from Superman which he frustratingly never gets to do. I think Snyder does this purposely to frustrate the audience so they do feel like... "if only he got to tell them"... could use some extra reaction shots but I think Snyder's style is to put the audience in the same position as the films players to experience the feeling of the moments...sometimes it works better than others.

It's 2 years since the end of MoS.
People are mentioned to have accepted Superman as a hero, but they only show him being dragged down by the subsequent negativity surrounding the "Superman Incident" in Africa.
The handling of that story is also poor IMO.
They never really give a coherent explanation for what he's being held "accountable" for.
Again, I can create a plausible justification for it in my own mind (have outlined a few in previous posts) but I shouldn't be creating explanations in my head for pivotal plot points that should be competently explained.

Contextually, it makes no sense to me that the US Senate is holding hearings about un-clarified accusations relating to actions in a foreign country, 18 months after the end of MoS and the deaths of thousands of U.S. citizens on U.S. soil.
The story would make far more sense if the U.S. Senate were holding hearings about trying to create some specific rules for Superman in regard to his actions on U.S. soil, or the U.N. leading it if it was to apply globally. The "Metropolis Accords" if you will.
I could keep going, but that's the general idea.
If there's a 4 hour film that we haven't seen, I would find it easy to believe that many of these issues would be addressed, but expecting to be able to take 4 hrs to justify narrative choices on screen is in itself unrealistic.


I think the hearing is brought on by the African event not MOS. They do indicate this in the first hearing with the African woman when Finch says Superman needs to be held accountable. This is the spark the creates the rift between Superman supporters and ant-Superman protesters. International pressure and embarrassment would be enough to "invite" Superman to explain himself. The reports were all asking IF he would show up or not. The African woman states that she fears he answers to no one, not even God. Superman is not ordered to appear. He voluntarily shows up. They didn't even know for sure if he would. And again, we need to remember that Lex set all this up. He manipulated everything leading up to the hearing to light the fuse of hate and distrust of Superman/Aliens for his reasons. He also makes sure Superman never gets a chance to tell his side of the story by blowing up poor Scoot who was as shocked as Superman when he exploded.

So, I can absolutely let issues of physics slide. I'm happily prepared to create my own internal justifications for those (as long as the film doesn't contradict it's own attempts to explain powers as MoS did) and think it's a basic requirement for CBM's in general
But contextually realistic scenarios and character reactions are required for my suspension of disbelief, not just in CBM's

I agree and wish most films were better filtered through unvarnished eyes. I think all the elements and scenes make sense but lack some connective tissue. I think Snyder often trims a bit too much fat.


Some other fun things to wonder about:t:

Why did Lex need Zod's finger prints to get into the ship when there was a gaping hole already in the side from when Superman crashed through it to stop Zod in MOS?

Supes and Bats literally strand Lois on the abandoned island...alone, with no way to get home! Couldn't Supes drop her off in Metropolis before crashing the ship...again. hey, the door was open. (My attorney will be in touch with you about the damage to door )

Maybe Bats could have told Alfred to pick her up !

 

[Visualiza]

Did he suffer from head injuries in one of his grueling action sequences?

Probably doesn't wanna kick 'em while they're down.

 

[titansupes]

I salute the troll who came up with this petition. S/he is mighty.

People keep saying critics are being paid off by Disney to bash BvS... But has nobody considered the possibility that Zack Snyder's being paid by Disney to make sure these movies are bad?!

#theultimateconspiracy
#biggerthanwatergate

 

[Timebomb]

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand....

You don't really believe this stuff right? Even the thought that there is this conspiracy where a studio pays off a large (it would have to be a massive number) of critics is perposterous. It's an insult to the profession of critics and the film makers who put their heart and soul into their work to make a great film. Maybe it just means some people need to try harder.

 

[Flint Marko]

I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand....

lol

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/alice_in_wonderland_through_the_looking_glass/

 

[Rowsdower!]

People keep saying critics are being paid off by Disney to bash BvS... But has nobody considered the possibility that Zack Snyder's being paid by Disney to make sure these movies are bad?!

#theultimateconspiracy
#biggerthanwatergate

MIND BLOWN

That's it! Snyder is Marvel's secret weapon.