BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

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Wow. So the problem we have with movie is not what was actually written or displayed on the screen, but that we didn't have access to your completely imagined version of Batman's internal logic and inner monologue.
For which no actual evidence exists.
The smartest man on the planet, if not in all of history, is now fundamentally unable to articulate his motives, even when he's clearly articulating them?

Your preconceived view of Batman is stopping you for looking at the evidence presented on screen.
Firstly, to think Batman is "smarter" than Lex is fanciful. Lex manipulates Batman at every turn in this movie, and that makes sense. For Lex to even be a force in a universe where you have the JL he must not only have resources at his disposable but must be able to manipulate to achieve goals, and that includes manipulating and deceiving Batman. So I'm sorry, but your fanciful version of Batman as the best and brightest can not be true. He is not as smart as Lex or Lex becomes irrelevant.

As for Batman he is purposely portrayed as a man who has lost his touch with humanity after doing this for so long and seen so much go wrong and achieved nothing as a result (criminals are like weeds.) This is for the purpose of having Superman redeem the humanity he has lost and returned him back to the Batman that we know. That in my book is bold and a really beautiful arc for Bruce. Instead of trying to force your Batman into this story, maybe look at it from the view that Batman has returned to your Batman by the end due to the acts of Superman, which again, is incredibly faithful to who Superman is to everyone.
 
The Martha moment was one of the best things about the film. If you don't understand how it's beyond a name coincidence that ends the fight, please don't comment. It sucked the life out of my body when that moment happened, because it's not only something I had never pieced together, but the understanding in how it relates to Batman's journey from childhood to the pending execution of a Superman was perfect.

Also, great connection someone made about Lex saying how god never saved him from his father's fist, and Superman blocked Doomsday's punch. Seriously, awesome insight.

i don't think folks were confused by it...or were literally talking about them having the same name. i think people understood what happened in that scene. the journey getting there was just so poor that it had no real gravitas.

but my issue is that why didn't batman know superman's real identity beforehand? in 18 months, the world's greatest detective didn't spend time researching this alien? wasn't able to track him and figure stuff out about him in the first place? what was he doing all this time?

the movie not only hurt the superman character but also hurt the batman character.
 
No-one would ever say their mother's name in any circumstance like that regardless of their mental state. It is, has and always will be 'Mum'.

you're about to be killed. the man about to kill you has it in his head that you are not human,you are not a man (he said so himself at that moment when he told him that "men are brave,you're not a man") and the only thing you can think is what will make him stop so I can save my mother? Oh yeah maybe if he knows that I have a mother and that mine and his share the same name that he will see that he and I are more alike than not. that even to save my mother I wouldn't kill him when it would have been so easy.

Yeah I think that Supes is able to rationalize that.
 
i don't think folks were confused by it...or were literally talking about them having the same name. i think people understood what happened in that scene. the journey getting there was just so poor that it had no real gravitas.

but my issue is that why didn't batman know superman's real identity beforehand? in 18 months, the world's greatest detective didn't spend time researching this alien? wasn't able to track him and figure stuff out about him in the first place? what was he doing all this time?

the movie not only hurt the superman character but also hurt the batman character.

If you think this movie hurt Batman and Superman's reputation then think again buster.
 
i don't think folks were confused by it...or were literally talking about them having the same name. i think people understood what happened in that scene. the journey getting there was just so poor that it had no real gravitas.

but my issue is that why didn't batman know superman's real identity beforehand? in 18 months, the world's greatest detective didn't spend time researching this alien? wasn't able to track him and figure stuff out about him in the first place? what was he doing all this time?

the movie not only hurt the superman character but also hurt the batman character.

yeah Bats maybe should have known his secret identity. If he thought he had one. Bruce didn't think of him as a person though. For all he knew this guy spent all his time as Superman. Why would a being with powers such as his need a secret identity? Bruce was broken and in this fallen state wasn't allowing himself to second-guess his own assessment of what this alien was.
 
If you think this movie hurt Batman and Superman's reputation then think again buster.

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you're about to be killed. the man about to kill you has it in his head that you are not human,you are not a man (he said so himself at that moment when he told him that "men are brave,you're not a man") and the only thing you can think is what will make him stop so I can save my mother? Oh yeah maybe if he knows that I have a mother and that mine and his share the same name that he will see that he and I are more alike than not. that even to save my mother I wouldn't kill him when it would have been so easy.

Yeah I think that Supes is able to rationalize that.

So let me get this right, in that split second where I'm about to be stabbed, beaten to a bloody pulp, possibly on the verge of death already, you honestly expect I would have clear enough mental focus to not only think about my mother but have a clear enough mind to think about saying her name on the off chance the guy beating me up has a mother who has the same name as a last ditch effort to save my life and hers. Is that correct?
 
yeah Bats maybe should have known his secret identity. If he thought he had one. Bruce didn't think of him as a person though. For all he knew this guy spent all his time as Superman. Why would a being with powers such as his need a secret identity? Bruce was broken and in this fallen state wasn't allowing himself to second-guess his own assessment of what this alien was.
Snyder has said that Lois had buried all previous clues that led her to find Clark's identity and has continued to do it.
 
yeah it was off screen. but you have to think that he could see him under the mask with the xray vision. or maybe he figured it out after the party when he overheard the com link conversation with Alfred? Anyway after their first encounter he would have done what any good reporter would do and research the background of his subject. so it's not like it's asking you to do mental gymnastics.
just have a passing knowledge of Superman's capabilities and being able to come to a logical conclusion. I thought Batman's detective work was good in this film. He tracked down the White Portuguese. CLoned KGBeast's phone and with the help of Alfred and that clone/phone tracker was able to save Martha. Oh and he tracked down Diana Prince to meet with her and get his harddrive leech/cloning device back. Not to mention weaponizing Kryptonite using his laser.

No, he clearly knows Bruce is Batman at the party. I have no problem with that part of the narrative.
Just as it is blindingly obvious that Lex knows who they both are, which I've seen as an unfair criticism from some who don't understand why Lex would care about introducing a reporter to a billionaire. Except, the only reason he would, is if he does know and it is revealed later that he does indeed know both their identities - so what's the criticism?
What's never explained is how, not that I think that's important, but what I do think is important is that Bruce should know who Clark is first.
Snyder's go-to for Bat-facts is Miller and he's always portrays Batman as the smartest person in any room, even when otherwise completely unhinged.
In All-Star, he knew all of the secret identities, even knowing Clark could fly when Clark didn't (how was never explained - because he's the Goddamn Batman seems reason enough for Miller by then)
In MoS, Lois figured out Superman was Clark in record time, before there even was a Superman.
Batman can't? After obsessing for 2 yrs?
Even if I bought into the completely uncharacteristic idea others have proposed, (that he's so damaged his brain can't do detective work anymore, which your points above show is not the case anyway), with his resources he couldn't employ someone to replicate Lois's investigative feat?
Even if he's committed to being entirely self contained, I have to wonder about other Robins. If that's Todd's suit on display, where's Dick? Is there a Tim?
What's Alfred doing, except trying to dissuade and look pensive? Surely he'd be capable of investigating on his own. If there is a Dick or Tim, then I find it incomprehensible that Alfred wouldn't have contacted them for support.
I cannot accept that the character as depicted on-screen would simply try and prevent Bruce from becoming a murderer with a few ironic or portentous remarks and then leave it for the chips to fall as they may.
There are just too many other holes. Why didn't Superman save Martha himself? Because Batman wants to do it to make up for misjudging and trying to kill him?
That's hardly a compelling reason, given that relationship dynamic. I wouldn't let Batman go there, if I was Supes, especially since I could be in and out before the mercs even knew I was in the building. It again doesn't pass the logic test.
Trust the guy who just tried to kill me and was clearly unhinged a few minutes ago to save my mother? Or go myself?
Why wouldn't I go save my Mother and let Batman tackle the other lone, non-powered billionaire instead of letting the non-powered Batman tackle a warehouse full of heavily armed mercenaries holding my mother hostage.
Which scenario seems safest for Martha?
It would deprive us the best 2 minutes in the whole movie though.
This goes to the other unfair criticism, that Superman didn't try to talk to Batman before the fight. That's not true. He did, and Batman completely ignored him. He didn't react to being called Bruce, Superman's admission that he was wrong, or care at all what he had to say.
Superman does start off trying to engage, but then doesn't take advantage of repeated opportunities to do so.
Instead of finishing what he started to say when the sonics first hit, he makes repeated threats designed to provoke not pacify.
Instead of "Stay down", why not "Lex has my mother"? He has opportunities to use the "Save Martha" line twice after knocking Bats down, lengthy moments before the first K-attack, but chose instead to hover and threaten.
The biggest problem though is that Batman is repeatedly portrayed as the dumbest most unrepentant thug in the movie. Except when his intellect is suddenly required to advance the plot.
 
I think Bruce blinked and missed all the rescuing Superman has done post MoS if he needed the Martha scene to realise that Superman is capable of compassion.


There are two factors here:

1. Bruce is focused on the 1%. Yes, he has most likey seen some of the heroic acts Superman has performed but that doesn't change the fact that if Superman wanted to, he could wipe out the entire human race. A reason he feels this could happen despite Superman's heroism is because...

2. Bruce's personal history. Twenty years in Gotham. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way? Bruce has had experiences with good people turning bad. Let's take Harvey Dent for example. Harvey Dent was a good man but because of a specific event, he turned bad. What if a specific event happens to Superman and it turns him bad. The consequences would be much worse because of what Superman is capable of. This plays into Bruce's paranoia and sets him on his mission.

The Martha scene is the realization that in Batman's quest he has become the very thing he swore to stop in his crusade as Batman. He realizes how far unhinged he had become. Once he "wakes up" from this, he sees as well that in Superman's last moments all he is wishing for is that a human be saved, contrasting Batman's view of Superman wiping out the human race. This gives Batman pause on this mistaken quest he had undertaken. This becomes fully realized when Superman gives his life for all of humanity. This act restores faith in Bruce and removes the cynicism he had been operating under, "there is still good in men". Seeing that if a man would give his life for good that he needs to believe in that good again as once he did in his earlier days instead of remaining in his jaded and cynical state.
 
Your preconceived view of Batman is stopping you for looking at the evidence presented on screen.
Firstly, to think Batman is "smarter" than Lex is fanciful. Lex manipulates Batman at every turn in this movie, and that makes sense. For Lex to even be a force in a universe where you have the JL he must not only have resources at his disposable but must be able to manipulate to achieve goals, and that includes manipulating and deceiving Batman. So I'm sorry, but your fanciful version of Batman as the best and brightest can not be true. He is not as smart as Lex or Lex becomes irrelevant.

As for Batman he is purposely portrayed as a man who has lost his touch with humanity after doing this for so long and seen so much go wrong and achieved nothing as a result (criminals are like weeds.) This is for the purpose of having Superman redeem the humanity he has lost and returned him back to the Batman that we know. That in my book is bold and a really beautiful arc for Bruce. Instead of trying to force your Batman into this story, maybe look at it from the view that Batman has returned to your Batman by the end due to the acts of Superman, which again, is incredibly faithful to who Superman is to everyone.

Exactly. I've even seen where people are complaining that Superman doesn't rescue anyone in this film and he never smiles. Which is BS because he was smiling after rescuing the little girl in the fire in Juarez Mexico. Right up until everyone started reaching just to touch him and he seemed concerned about that. He isn't comfortable with being "worshiped"
Exactly like he should be.

If I had one complaint about Superman is that when he stopped Batman in the car why didn't he stop the guys Batman was chasing also? He should have seen them and their guns/rpg launcher etc. Wouldn't he have stopped all of them?
 
I think Eggy's point is that NEITHER is remotely informative

I still don't get the logic of how Martha Kent (I still think he was trying to go for the full name before he got choked and interrupted) is not informative. There might be several Martha Kents in Metropolis/Gotham but at least it narrows it down by a lot. Batman's a smart guy, he'll figure it out.

No I don't. This convo just proves how much of a poor plot device this is.

It's only poor to people who're over analyzing the movie. I felt it to be really meaningful for them to share something that special in common, that it brought Batman back to reality and showed Superman's vulnerability.

For the record, I always use my mother's first name when referring to her, especially if they need to recognize her when I'm not around to point her out. It makes perfect sense to me, and I can't understand why people are struggling so hard to see it.
 
The problem with Martha is simply that everything happens to quick.

Supers says his mom is Martha & 5 seconds later Batman wants to be his friend. There's no time to pause. The pacing is off in this film where it's both strangely painstaking slow & furiously fast with multiple scenes involving random ******** that bores us to death while other scenes happen to quick with something else happening after that there's no time to breath.

We have the Bats vs Supers fight then Bats vs KGB Beast then Trinity vs Doomsday in 3 straight scenes.
 
Exactly. I've even seen where people are complaining that Superman doesn't rescue anyone in this film and he never smiles. Which is BS because he was smiling after rescuing the little girl in the fire in Juarez Mexico. Right up until everyone started reaching just to touch him and he seemed concerned about that. He isn't comfortable with being "worshiped"
Exactly like he should be.

If I had one complaint about Superman is that when he stopped Batman in the car why didn't he stop the guys Batman was chasing also? He should have seen them and their guns/rpg launcher etc. Wouldn't he have stopped all of them?
He smiles like one time in the movie. Maybe twice. Yippie! Friggin Daredevil smiles more than this guy. Don't give me that responsibility weighing on his shoulders crap either. This guy has been handed the greatest gifts on the planet and he's moping around all movie? Give me a break. Gifts like being the last son of a dead planet, gets to grow up on a farm with parents who protect him, gets to be with a good and smoking hot woman, good job in the real world, has statues made for him, leads a double life and ppl don't recognize him, saves people, cool powers that any human would dream of, good looking dude, give....me....a break! He has no reason to not behave like a joyful Superman. Especially since his childhood is behind him.

This film tries too hard to be serious and miserable. When a superman movies are bleaker than past batman movies, there's a problem.
 
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I'd again argue that the big issue isn't Superman referring to his mother by her name. We accept bigger leaps than that in movies all the time. I still think the big issue is what I mentioned a few pages back where the entire turning point of the film hinges on the random coincidence of their moms having the same name and that being very transparent. Especially because not only is it kind of goofily melodramatic to the Nth degree, but by its very nature the kidnapped Martha/ticking clock scenario took away the possibility of these two having a real, equal-sided ideological battle that they have to resolve themselves and BOTH have some some of realization of where they share common ground. As is, Superman just entirely drops all his beef with Batman for no real reason. Unless we're meant to assume that all of Supes' grievances with Batman's vigilantism were based on his own internal superhero-insecurities (which he's now apparently overcome thanks to Pa Kent)....but if that's the case that really needed development in the movie.

This is why I'll at least give the extended cut a shot. As is, the theatrical cut is barely even functional, both in terms of pacing and just having all its pieces on the board from a storytelling perspective. I may not be a fan of a lot of the creative choices made, but I at least want to see what was originally intended for this movie and then judge it. I still think there's no way a movie that got delayed an extra year with this much riding on it should've made its way into theaters with this many problems, but I'll give the extended cut a chance.
 
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He smiles like one time in the movie. Maybe twice. Yippie! Friggin Daredevil smiles more than this guy. Don't give me that responsibility weighing on his shoulders crap either. This guy has been handed the greatest gifts on the planet and he's moping around all movie? Give me a break. Gifts like being the last son of a dead planet, gets to grow up on a farm with parents who protect him, gets to be with a good and smoking hot woman, good job in the real world, has statues made for him, leads a double life and ppl don't recognize him, saves people, cool powers that any human would dream of, good looking dude, give....me....a break! He has no reason to not behave like a joyful Superman. Especially since his childhood is behind him.

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In all honesty, by the time they got to the Martha scene I had pretty much stopped caring about Batman or Superman given all of the stuff the film was trying to juggle, and I just wanted to see them finally get to the fight. I get what Snyder and co were trying to convey with the Martha thing, it just it didn't move me.
 
Your preconceived view of Batman is stopping you for looking at the evidence presented on screen.
Firstly, to think Batman is "smarter" than Lex is fanciful. Lex manipulates Batman at every turn in this movie, and that makes sense. For Lex to even be a force in a universe where you have the JL he must not only have resources at his disposable but must be able to manipulate to achieve goals, and that includes manipulating and deceiving Batman. So I'm sorry, but your fanciful version of Batman as the best and brightest can not be true. He is not as smart as Lex or Lex becomes irrelevant.

As for Batman he is purposely portrayed as a man who has lost his touch with humanity after doing this for so long and seen so much go wrong and achieved nothing as a result (criminals are like weeds.) This is for the purpose of having Superman redeem the humanity he has lost and returned him back to the Batman that we know. That in my book is bold and a really beautiful arc for Bruce. Instead of trying to force your Batman into this story, maybe look at it from the view that Batman has returned to your Batman by the end due to the acts of Superman, which again, is incredibly faithful to who Superman is to everyone.

This is your main error in judgement - you base your claims and disagreements with other interpretations on the fact that the characters behaviours have to be as they are to make sense for this story. The problem is firstly, that many of these scenes simply don't make sense logically, but where it falls over completely is that this story doesn't make sense for these characters at all.

It's not about "My" Batman. It's "The" Batman. My "fanciful version of Batman" has been around far longer than this movie version has or will be. By your own admission, the version that most fans took exception to is presumed to be gone and replaced by "my" version by the end of the movie!
That fact alone seems to more than enough vindication for "my" version.
If you think a 2.5hr movie deserves to supplant the weight of almost a century of history and far better, more insightful and more popular incarnations of the character, across a range of media, then you're never going to understand the nature of this films failure to be an unqualified smash hit and why your defenses don't convince the majority on this board.

Rightly or wrongly, these type of films, especially this one in particular, will never be judged solely on their own in isolation.
They will always be held up against the standards set in canon. And justifiably found wanting.

The best test for whether these IP movies stand on their own merits or not would be the GA reception, represented by it's legs.
In terms of legs, it looks like an I-beam may have been knocked onto those, presumably during the battle between Superman and Zod.
Those things are stumps.

So the GA, unencumbered by preconceptions from comic history, didn't like it much either.
That says the story, irrespective of the revision or deconstruction of the iconic heroes, was not good enough for people to recommend it to their friends or family.
That's a simple fact of the BO.
For example, I actually loved Watchmen. But it's very apparent that I am in the minority and I can clearly see and understand why.

Just as I, and many others who don't like BvS, can clearly see what they're going for here; Broken Bat, turned around by poor unappreciated, burdened Superman, hope returned to both and the world at large when he commits attention-seeking petulant suicide, I mean of course noble sacrifice (completely unnecessary, preventable sacrifice) etc etc.
I just find it very poorly conceived and poorly executed.
What they are really trying to do (I hope) is set the end of this movie up as a justifiable turning point to ditch the unpopular, non-canonical versions of the Snyder Murderverse and go more mainstream.
I get it.
I'm not actually convinced that "JL will be lighter in tone, much more of a crowd pleaser, more suited to Snyder's talents as a filmaker". Said WB PR, who have clearly never watched Zack Snyders previous movies.
If the Knightmare scene was an allusion to what's planned for JL, yeah, that's clearly MUCH lighter in tone.

Your assertion that Batman has to be dumbed down or Lex becomes irrelevant and can only function as a character if he can manipulate Batman?
That's demonstrably ridiculous, except perhaps in this incompetent example of one-dimensional characterisation and poor storytelling.
Examine the works of Loeb, Morrison, Johns, and many others who have and continue to create best-selling, critically acclaimed fan favourite story arcs around the very premise you claim cannot work.
Having Batman be smarter than Lex certainly hasn't hurt the comics.
But then, they don't confuse the symbolic use of jars of piss with competent or complex narrative either.
Some of the few highlights of DC's new 52 have been the interactions between the almost equal yet opposites of Batman and Lex.
This is what accomplished writers familiar with these characters can achieve.
Stupid as a plot device is only required if the writer isn't smart enough to deal with numerous smart characters at once. Not that there was any real evidence of that in the film, just over-use of Deus Ex Machina moments in lieu of intelligent storytelling or consistent characterisation.
The director's cut may change my mind but I doubt it.

Attempting to divorce these characterisations from the comic source also ignores the fact that Snyder keeps referring to his Batman as Miller's Batman.
Who is the smartest man on the planet. Smarter than Lex. Who is also a genius.
Of course, Miller's portrayal of Superman in TDKR was also the most insulting I'd seen at that point.
Yet Snyder demonstrably doesn't understand Miller's Batman as he misquotes and misrepresents both the character and the events in Millers work during interviews.
The idea that Batman needs to be portrayed as Rorschach first just so Superman can redeem him from being a murderous psychopath is nonsensical, when there was absolutely no need to present him that way in the first place.
"Criminals like weeds" doesn't substantiate your claims to me, which aren't on screen, but mostly are taken from comments Affleck made during pre-release interviews about Batman's motivations for fighting Superman.
"Criminals are like Weeds" is a quote used repeatedly in comics, by heroes and other characters that are yet to turn into murderous psychopaths (except when used by the Punisher), or become so overwhelmed at their relative ineffectuality that they obsessively plan the murder of their more powerful peers. Sounds like a plot point for a sequel to Glengarry Glenn Ross.
There simply isn't enough dialogue in the film to establish any of the characters motivations coherently without relying on these external sources, including one shot comics that actually attempt to provide the missing detail required to make sense of the characters in the movie.
Or, in the case where the film actually takes the time to establish Batman's motives pretty definitively, you come up and claim that the one time the film had a coherent narrative it was actually saying something else.
That is either a terrible creative decision on WB's part, a massively cynical one, or a fast-tracked attempt at damage control after the execs saw the finished product.
You can't rely on people picking up external material required to make more sense of your movie.
Or rely on the creative imagination of their viewers.
Maybe they'll be fleshed out in the DC, maybe the missing dialogue and scenes that could redeem this amateurishly tacked together offering are in the 90 minutes of footage WB left on the cutting room floor, but I doubt it.
We'll find out in a few weeks.
 
I'm still waiting for someone to explain this master manipulation that Luthor does on Batman.

Sending letters doesn't really strike me as "genius".
 
speaking of Daredevil i was kinda disappointed with Season 2. at the begginning Matt tried so hard to convince Elektra and Punisher not to kill but by the end of the Season Elektra and Punisher continued to kill ninjas left and right but Matt is kinda ok with it. that didn't sit well with me.
 
speaking of Daredevil i was kinda disappointed with Season 2. at the begginning Matt tried so hard to convince Elektra and Punisher not to kill but by the end of the Season Elektra and Punisher continued to kill ninjas left and right but Matt is kinda ok with it. that didn't sit well with me.

I would explain this but I'm certain a moderator is going to delete it so I won't waste the time.

Short answer is: I doubt he was okay with it, but it's hard to stop two people from killing when there is a group of ninjas swarming you.
 
So the fact that Bruce and Clark have mothers with the same name is convenient.

So?

Movies, especially superhero movies of late, often rely on various coincidences.

Why is this such a huge issue for people? Why, in this movie, are movies suddenly not allowed to have coincidences happen?

Why, in this film, is it suddenly poor writing to massage reality a little, to have Clark say "Martha" instead of "My mom"? I get why it's not uber realistic...but at the end of the day, this is a movie. Movies don't always present the most realistic series of events.

If the film actually made Batman just stop because their mothers had the same name..ok, I would get the dislike.

But that's not what the film shows happening. The film shows a very vulnerable Bruce realizing how far he has fallen (they even flashback to him FALLING again), and being disgusted with himself and what he has almost done. But people just seem to ignore this because a word is said before this realization.

And at the end of the day, it boggles my mind that comic book fans are essentially whining because Bruce and Clark reached a shaky understanding at least in part because of their love for their parents. And are complaining about THAT.

I’m seeing cynicism coming into play here more and more, and it's disappointing.
 
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Spoiler alert for Daredevil, geeze.

As for Batman not being as smart as Luthor. It falls apart because Batman is useless in Justice League unless his genius is at the highest level. This version is not even on the level of Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney or Bale. So why is this shared universe even happening?
 
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