BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 14

[Bathead]

Given that gravity exists, yes.
But anti-gravity does not
Ah, the ol' 'limited imagination' line is thrown up once again. How about looking at it from a film makers perspective. BTW dude, there is no DCCU. At the moment it's still just a Superman series that just happens to have Batman and Wonder Woman.

It's only one movie it's not a series yet, and nothing has been established outside of what was seen in the movie. There's still plenty of room for such a thing as magic

 

[charl_huntress]

The thing is, there are a ton of well written hard core sci-fi that deals with such things and they do it without watering the concept of mysticism down to a mundane level by explaining it away with bunch of scientific babble.

Absolutely...there are great books that merge all these elements and do it well. So I'm not saying it can't be done, but on film I would say there are far fewer examples of it being done well. The one movie I keep thinking of is Immortal. That's how I see mysticism and sci-fi merging because it's not a book and the audience is invested in the story in a different way.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

No, not the shot to the head. I'm fine with that. Remember when young Clark was reading Plato in his dad's truck? Well, some kids just pulled him out of the truck and sort of pushed him on the floor. And at the start of the film (on the boat), a guy pushes him out of the way to save his life. Should they have been able to do that?

Honestly yes, young clark probably let himself be pulled out, he couldn't reveal himself. And when he gets pushed out of the way on the boat he wasn't expecting it. Since his weight isn't proportionate to his strength I didn't have an issue with it.

 

[jmc]

Exactly. Spot on. No concrete rules were established for the universe in which MOS took place, other than the fact that humans hadn't necessarily been exposed to other-worldly elements prior to the start of the film (as far as we know). Still, there could be people in that universe (STAR Labs could exist and know more, Batman could have seen more things in his time as a crime fighter, etc) who are aware of meta humans or even magic.

In IM1, there was no hint of magic existing, nor was there much of a hint during IM2. They were films built around the idea of human craftsmanship and science. Still, magic and alien life both clearly existed and were eventually shown to us in that universe. Why must this be any different? Why is MOS held to a different standard than that? Because it was more serious?

Because Mos Steel itself held itself to a different standard. Yes, because it took itself seriously, to even compare it the tone and feel of Iron Man is absurd. It would be like introducing wizards into The Terminator series which no-one would buy into. The only reason people are willing to be lenient is because of what's happened in past mediums regarding these characters. The excuse basically comes down to 'well it's happened before in other mediums', but this isn't some generic world where you can plonk in any type of character, it's been designed in a specific way and characters have to fit the world.

 

[jmc]

It's only one movie it's not a series yet, and nothing has been established outside of what was seen in the movie. There's still plenty of room for such a thing as magic

And you're assuming we're going to.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Since his weight isn't proportionate to his strength I didn't have an issue with it.

In that line of thought, would you have a problem if the great Batman flipped Superman over a table or something to that effect?

 

[KillerMcQueen]

In that line of thought, would you have a problem if the great Batman flipped Superman over a table or something to that effect?

I honestly didn't take issue with that, Superman didn't think Batman would be dumb enough to try that. If Superman was ready for a fight it'd be one thing, but he wasn't.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I honestly didn't take issue with that, Superman didn't think Batman would be dumb enough to try that. If Superman was ready for a fight it'd be one thing, but he wasn't.

Yeah, that's the way I saw it as well.

 

[charl_huntress]

No, not the shot to the head. I'm fine with that. Remember when young Clark was reading Plato in his dad's truck? Well, some kids just pulled him out of the truck and sort of pushed him on the floor. And at the start of the film (on the boat), a guy pushes him out of the way to save his life. Should they have been able to do that?

LOL...Oh my apologies...I read the first part and immediately thought of the old debate and didn't address anything else.

I think yes, but not because they are able to move him but because Clark let's himself be moved in those cases.

You know though...thinking about how Wondy's origin could be merged into what has been established in MOS. Perhaps the PZ explosion at the end will be used in a way. It seems that if the PZ can be used to displace people through space then maybe this caused a disturbance in another realm long thought forgotten...maybe.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

LOL...Oh my apologies...I read the first part and immediately thought of the old debate and didn't address anything else.

lol

I think yes, but not because they are able to move him but because Clark let's himself be moved in those cases.

I think the guy who attempted to save him sort of caught him off guard though. Unless, he was just playing possum for some unknown reason.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

It seems that if the PZ can be used to displace people through space then maybe this caused a disturbance in another realm long thought forgotten...maybe.

Hmm. I like that. Sounds like what's been happening in the Marvel Universe of late. During the Age of Ultron, Wolverine and some others essentially broke time. So, everything's out of whack now.

 

[Bathead]

And you're assuming we're going to.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing? Assuming from one movie that the rest of any upcoming movies will be limited to what was seen in MOS? That souns like definite case of a lack of imagination to me.

 

[charl_huntress]

I think the guy who attempted to save him sort of caught him off guard though. Unless, he was just playing possum for some unknown reason.

I sometimes do that...lol. For me though that scene was one of those things I attribute to the "science" of Superman. The best explanation I like is he has some control over his body mass...if you will...and is able to touch things normally and interact with the world normally because of this control. That's how I look at it at least.

Hmm. I like that. Sounds like what's been happening in the Marvel Universe of late. During the Age of Ultron, Wolverine and some others essentially broke time. So, everything's out of whack now.

I think what I want is some connection to the "science" of MOS and the magic of WW's world. If they find a good way to explain it then it should work.

 

[roach]

And you're assuming we're going to.

Based on what we know…yes.
We know that Wonder Woman is in this movie and she is a purely magic character.
We know that del Toro is working on a Justice League Dark movie that is set in this MOS movie and features a host of magic characters.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I sometimes do that...lol. For me though that scene was one of those things I attribute to the "science" of Superman. The best explanation I like is he has some control over his body mass...if you will...and is able to touch things normally and interact with the world normally because of this control. That's how I look at it at least.

Yeah, I guess you have to perform a little mental gymnastics to make it work, as is always the case in comics. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. The other day I was thinking about what it must have been like for poor baby Clark to deal with all that sensory overload at such a young age. How would he get through such an ordeal?

 

[roach]

I think what I want is some connection to the "science" of MOS and the magic of WW's world. If they find a good way to explain it then it should work.

I would dislike this. The biggest way to separate their universe from the Marvel one is by having magic be a part of it.

 

[charl_huntress]

We know that del Toro is working on a Justice League Dark movie that is set in this MOS movie and features a host of magic characters.

Where have you read this? What I read it that the universe is set in the world of MOS like that's the type of world, but not that they are connected.

 

[Boy Scout]

I honestly didn't take issue with that, Superman didn't think Batman would be dumb enough to try that. If Superman was ready for a fight it'd be one thing, but he wasn't.

That's how I looked at it, too.

 

[roach]

lol



I think the guy who attempted to save him sort of caught him off guard though. Unless, he was just playing possum for some unknown reason.

I think the best explanation is that he has to set himself to be un-movable (think The Blob) and that he can be flipped if taken off guard. If not then you'd have to explain how cars, elevators and other vehicles would be able to move him.

 

[charl_huntress]

Yeah, I guess you have to perform a little mental gymnastics to make it work, as is always the case in comics. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense. The other day I was thinking about what it must have been like for poor baby Clark to deal with all that sensory overload at such a young age. How would he get through such an ordeal?

Mental gymnastics is the best way to describe. I liked the little bit we got in MOS with young Clark, but I would have like to see more that as well. The only indication we got was that when he was really young he wasn't even allowed to play with other kids. I got the impression the dog was his only friend...which was why the family was so keen to save poor Hank...lol

I would dislike this. The biggest way to separate their universe from the Marvel one is by having magic be a part of it.

I think the world is separated enough by tone and visual aspects that it wouldn't be a problem if that particular feature was the same. Beside it would be different if you think about it. Thor was sent to earth, which is what caused the problem. Diana/Wondy and Themyscira might have been drawn to notice earth because of the PZ disturbance.

 

[MrsKent26]

I'm not gonna say it's magic…but…it's magic

I know you posted this in jest, but I'm gonna go ahead and be honest about something.

"Because...aliens" is the reason I can buy Superman's outlandishness more than I can buy WW's magic.

And I don't know why, exactly. For some reason aliens seem like something that actually could happen to humanity, even though it hasn't yet. I think there's actually a possibility that aliens exist somewhere in the vastness of space. What's unlikely is that they could ever reach us. But we can't totally rule it out. People say aliens don't exist either when I say magic doesn't. But to me, magic absolutely doesn't exist, while aliens can't be ruled out entirely. And I guess this belief that aliens could exist opens up a plethora of other things that could exist when one assumes aliens would have advanced technology and different physical attributes.

So, I guess that's why I believe all sorts of crazy sci-fi alien things could happen, but have trouble believing in mythology and magic lassos.

 

[roach]

lolI think the world is separated enough by tone and visual aspects that it wouldn't be a problem if that particular feature was the same. Beside it would be different if you think about it. Thor was sent to earth, which is what caused the problem. Diana/Wondy and Themyscira might have been drawn to notice earth because of the PZ disturbance.

well if you think about as being different tones and visual aspects then you'll see that they don't fit. Magic can be done in the same tone and visual aspects of Man of Steel…without losing a thing. If you look at the movie Watchmen…if you change Dr. Manhattan from a science based character to a magic based character you lose nothing in the process.

 

[roach]

I know you posted this in jest, but I'm gonna go ahead and be honest about something.

"Because...aliens" is the reason I can buy Superman's outlandishness more than I can buy WW's magic.

And I don't know why, exactly. For some reason aliens seem like something that actually could happen to humanity, even though it hasn't yet. I think there's actually a possibility that aliens exist somewhere in the vastness of space. What's unlikely is that they could ever reach us. But we can't totally rule it out. People say aliens don't exist either when I say magic doesn't. But to me, magic absolutely doesn't exist, while aliens can't be ruled out entirely. And I guess this belief that aliens could exist opens up a plethora of other things that could exist when one assumes aliens would have advanced technology and different physical attributes.

So, I guess that's why I believe all sorts of crazy sci-fi alien things could happen, but have trouble believing in mythology and magic lassos.

You don't have to believe in a thing to be entertained by it. I don't believe in Hobbits and dwarfs and dragons but I was entertained by Desolation of Smaug. Magic has always been a part of Wonder Woman and I would hate for all that to be wiped away.

 

[charl_huntress]

well if you think about as being different tones and visual aspects then you'll see that they don't fit. Magic can be done in the same tone and visual aspects of Man of Steel…without losing a thing. If you look at the movie Watchmen…if you change Dr. Manhattan from a science based character to a magic based character you lose nothing in the process.

I'm saying the different tones and visuals separate them, but if magic is introduced in a way that doesn't disrupt the tone so it has to become radically different to support it then it will work. This is speculation but let's say WW comes from a world where magic is the norm. Her world could be the basis for our myths and legends here for whatever reason, but it doesn't exist here. MOS' world does not need to change to support Wondy's existence...if that makes sense.

 

[roach]

I'm saying the different tones and visuals separate them, but if magic is introduced in a way that doesn't disrupt the tone so it has to become radically different to support it then it will work. This is speculation but let's say WW comes from a world where magic is the norm. Her world could be the basis for our myths and legends here for whatever reason, but it doesn't exist here. MOS' world does not need to change to support Wondy existence...if that makes sense.

i agree with this.