BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

[Llama_Shepherd]

Meh, if I found out Terminator and Matrix are infact in the same universe, I'd smile but that would be about it. I suppose I can only speak for myself though.

And that smile is something you wouldn't have experienced had the confirmation had not existed. I like to think of it as the nods to The Hobbit in Lord of the Rings. They're really cool, but not overbearing.

I doubt avengers will go so far as to explain anything, that's not their style. As long as they keep winking at us, no one can really complain. End of the world scenario in the UK during thor and no not even one word from the organization that's all about saving the world from such things? Of all times not to feature Coulson.

Well it's been a while since I watched Thor, but didn't the whole attack on Greenwich only last a few minutes? With SHIELD apparently located in Washington it would take them, Cap, Clint, and Widow several hours to get there to respond. The UK did issue a military recon mission, but the jets were lost.

And that's my point, Nolan was free to tell that story because Superman, Flash and GL weren't in the next city over watching national news. How else could you remove a cities big hero from the chessboard for months and hold a city hostage on the world stage.
What's the price of Freedom I wonder.

An isolated world definitely gives you more freedom in telling a story for your own character existing in a bubble. I guess they could have gone the No Man's Land route in that Congress actually makes heroes crossing the line into Gotham a crime for the duration.

However, as much as I do like isolated stories, I also like the idea that these characters don't exist in a bubble.

I don't have a problem with what superman/batman looks to be doing. I simply don't think other approaches(such as what's going on in DC tv) need to be constantly berated for doing their own thing. True Detective and The Wire and Breaking Bad are great on their own, without someone chiming in that they should be doing what marvel....etc. Same with movies. I feel like if tmr, DC said they won't be tying anything else together, it would somehow be seen as a 'fail' in this new world. That's my issue. This new standard of measuring 'quality' when it comes to this material.

Oh, by all means they don't all need to be interconnected. However, let's go from the only two released this far: Arrow and Man of Steel. They share similar tones and styles, no crossover in characters and there's been no need for any crossover. The Undertaking was a small event in a city that could be hours away from Superman. Arrow's even mentioned Batman's rogues, and look who exists in Man of Steel's world!

That was all great til The Flash showed up.

I preferred it when it was just him and that big bag and he even had to keep his purpose from his driver. Now it's more and more scooby bunch with people like diggle sitting in the club house often doing nothing. I like that he is now surrounded by targets I guess but I still prefer the tension of the early eps.

I've warmed a little to the Mystery Inc aspect. But I'm glad they seem to be focusing more on Roy with Ollie.

 

[roach]

WB is not doing a shared universe because of Marvel...though the boatload of cash Avengers made didn't hurt.

WB tried to make a JL movie as far back as 2007.
They tried to do a Batman vs Superman movie as far back as 2001...which is why we got the batman and superman symbol in I am Legend.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

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Ahh... the days of the DKR Tusi. How time flys.

 

[Steamteck]

I think the advantages you get from cross pollination and character interaction and shared storylines are more than worth any of the limitations myself.

 

[Shikamaru]

It's not the concept of the shared universe itself that limits creativity; it's the lack of identity.

A shared universe is a fantastic idea as long as, with the exception of global-centered things like the Justice League/Batmanvs.Superman/event stories, the individual mythos themselves still have a self-contained unique identity that sets them apart.

In other words, Superman and Flash existing in the same world doesn't change a thing about Batman's mythos in Gotham. But if Flash and Superman showed up in every other issue in a Batman comic to help fighting against Batman's villains, that's when it becomes a problem. That was the problem Iron Man 2 and other MCU films of Phase 1 had. They didn't have much of an identity. Too many characters and easter eggs were crammed to the point that it took away from the Iron Man story overall. But as long as you avoid doing that, a shared universe can be a marvelous thing. Even an advantage in keeping things fresh. Tarantino's universe is, for example, an example of one done right. Almost Marvel's universe since the start of Phase 2.

 

[Frodo]

WB is not doing a shared universe because of Marvel...though the boatload of cash Avengers made didn't hurt.

WB tried to make a JL movie as far back as 2007.
They tried to do a Batman vs Superman movie as far back as 2001...which is why we got the batman and superman symbol in I am Legend.

No doubt , this is the film they've wanted to make for a long time. That said, the idea of a shared DC universe in the Marvel sense with these characters is a reaction to Marvel. DC wasn't talking about having multiple character stories span multiple films back in 2001 or 2007 the way Marvel eventually did.

BvS back in 2002 was meant as a way of re-charing both Batman and Superman at once since both franchises had been run into the ground in the 80s and 90's. It was basically a loose sequel to their respective series. JLA :Mortal was trying to have it both ways in being a sequel to BB and possibly SR, while being in a clearly different universe, which is why Nolan and Singer wanted the plug pulled on it . WB never said at the time that the intention was to do what Marvel did eventually. WB's idea now of trying to build a shared universe in the way Marvel has done it is a reaction to what Marvel did. They aren't the only ones though, since Fox and even Sony want to do something similar. But that's show biz so its nothing new.

 

[roach]

It's not the concept of the shared universe itself that limits creativity; it's the lack of identity.

A shared universe is a fantastic idea as long as, with the exception of global-centered things like the Justice League/Batmanvs.Superman/event stories, the individual mythos themselves still have a self-contained unique identity that sets them apart.

In other words, Superman and Flash existing in the same world doesn't change a thing about Batman's mythos in Gotham. But if Flash and Superman showed up in every other issue in a Batman comic to help fighting against Batman's villains, that's when it becomes a problem. That was the problem Iron Man 2 and other MCU films of Phase 1 had. They didn't have much of an identity. Too many characters and easter eggs were crammed to the point that it took away from the Iron Man story overall. But as long as you avoid doing that, a shared universe can be a marvelous thing. Even an advantage in keeping things fresh. Tarantino's universe is, for example, an example of one done right. Almost Marvel's universe since the start of Phase 2.

My issue with how Marvel is doing their shared universe is that anything post Avengers must have an explanation on why the Avengers aren't called up. Everything post-avengers seemed like Marvel was trying to pull back...and in pulling back they missed out on logical spots where the links should have been there. The President is threatened and Tony is attacked and no one jumps into action???
The World is about to end in Thor 2 and not a single call to anyone else?

WB can avoid these issues with planning and creativity.

 

[kguillou]

Also, when your working in a shared universe you can't take as many risks creatively. I know the TDKR is a polarizing movie by the fans but I for one, really loved that movie for the fact that it was finally a DIFFERENT kind of Batman story, a story that gives Bruce Wayne an actual ending and a happy ending at that. The only reason that was possible was because the TDK trilogy was its own standalone entity and didn't tie into anything else.

And I mean no offense to Marvel because I love them too and this unique game-changing strategy they've constructed, but eventually there will come a time where their continuity will start to become flimsy and confusing just like in the comics. In fact, i think they've already retconned a couple of things, didn't they retcon the reason Tony Stark went to visit General Ross in Incredible Hulk?

 

[Deserana]

Iron Man 3 I completely agree with. But there's many more problems than that with the film. Thor 2 however does sort of come up with the idea that the whole situation begins and ends in the span of 15 minutes. In the UK. Chances are everyone else is in the US and I doubt the heroes could get their in that time.

But to me this whole problem has never annoyed me. If they just all turned up everytime it wouldn't be that characters film. You'd just follow this one character then in the end its The Avengers.

 

[Lencho01]

I think the SHIELD show has given us an example of why being connected to other shows/films isn't really that big of a deal outside of marketing when your product is simply weak.

 

[Lily Adler]

Ahh... the days of the DKR Tusi. How time flys.

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[Shikamaru]

My issue with how Marvel is doing their shared universe is that anything post Avengers must have an explanation on why the Avengers aren't called up. Everything post-avengers seemed like Marvel was trying to pull back...and in pulling back they missed out on logical spots where the links should have been there. The President is threatened and Tony is attacked and no one jumps into action???
The World is about to end in Thor 2 and not a single call to anyone else?

WB can avoid these issues with planning and creativity.

I don't think there was enough time to call everyone up. In Iron Man 3, Tony and Rhodey got the job done before anyone could show up. In Thor 2, the action was happening in the UK (halfway across the world from all other Avengers) and Thor neutralized the threat before anyone else could get there.

 

[Marvin]

I don't think there was enough time to call everyone up. In Iron Man 3, Tony and Rhodey got the job done before anyone could show up. In Thor 2, the action was happening in the UK (halfway across the world from all other Avengers) and Thor neutralized the threat before anyone else could get there.

It's not about getting them there in time. It's about these characters such as portman and the naked scientist sitting in an apartment talking about the universe ending(in a few hours) and then coming up with a way for their rag tag group to save it without calling people that have every right to know they might not wake up tmr?

Then actually heading out and doing it...I get how Thor was cut off from his home reinforcements(I guess) but given the speed he can fly, I don't get why he was cut off from his earth pals. Didn't bother me all that much, I prefer solo's but it's definitely not a 'non issue'

And I mean no offense to Marvel because I love them too and this unique game-changing strategy they've constructed, but eventually there will come a time where their continuity will start to become flimsy and confusing just like in the comics. In fact, i think they've already retconned a couple of things, didn't they retcon the reason Tony Stark went to visit General Ross in Incredible Hulk?

I completely forgot about that scene. Did it happen before the credits?
RDJ in hulk, who'd have thunk given the characterization in avengers.

I think the SHIELD show has given us an example of why being connected to other shows/films isn't really that big of a deal outside of marketing when your product is simply weak.

That first commercial for the television show is almost as epic as the avengers superbowl spot. Can't imagine anyone with an interest in what happens next not tuning in. The ratings were probably really high.

I can only imagine what the stringer in cap 2 will be, given how hard marvel has to push to sell Guardians, I don't see it not involving that film.

 

[Frodo]

Also, when your working in a shared universe you can't take as many risks creatively. I know the TDKR is a polarizing movie by the fans but I for one, really loved that movie for the fact that it was finally a DIFFERENT kind of Batman story, a story that gives Bruce Wayne an actual ending and a happy ending at that. The only reason that was possible was because the TDK trilogy was its own standalone entity and didn't tie into anything else.

Yeah, I agree. I think if there's any lesson to be learned from Nolan or Whedon, its to respect the characters and tell great stories with these characters. I like the isolated and shared universe models because both have their strengths but I guess the question is whether you have one for the sake of having one, or do you use one or the other because the stories or story mandate it.

 

[Lencho01]

That first commercial for the television show is almost as epic as the avengers superbowl spot. Can't imagine anyone with an interest in what happens next not tuning in. The ratings were probably really high.

I assume they were. But, I wouldn't be surprised to learn they dropped significantly over the course of the show.

 

[Lencho01]

Silly thought: Have Pepsi be part of the product placement and bring back Eisenberg's little sister to help advertise.

 

[Mikelus]

Speaking of post credit scenes, if MOS 2 is going to have one to connect to the JL movie, they could show a boom tube extracting something from the Phantom Zone... then the camera shows Faora on the floor with Darkseid looking at her.

You know you'll love to see not only Superman vs Faora round 2, but Wonder Woman vs Faora... but instead of the usual revenge arc, they could have Faora turning against Darkseid to help Superman and the JL. Having Superman inspiring her to be better would be a great way to develop the character and do something more creative.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

My issue with a Cinematic Universe is lack of creativity. If we look at the original Star Wars Trilogy, we had everyone together. The thing I don't need or want really are movies of other characters.

Just do a Justice League series. I don't need to know what's going on in Flash's world or Batman's during JL 1 and 2. I feel like the thing is you know the heroes will win and survive. The ending to Iron Man 3 will be fixed. Tony will have to not only suit up as Iron Man again but another time after that.

I mean either focus on one hero, with no team up: Dark Knight Trilogy = Indiana Jones Trilogy

or just do the team and don't have solo adventures for the heroes: Justice League Trilogy could equal the OT Star Wars Trilogy.

That's just my POV.

 

[DA_Champion]

A good alternative to a shared universe is to have parallel universes. Therefore the heroes are scattered over several different universes, but not necessarily one per universe.

Then, maybe for one movie or two movies, a trans-dimensional portal opens up and you can have them all fight side by side.

 

[Crimson King]

I don't understand the complaints about a shared universe. I prefer it to superhero movies where they pretend the hero is in a world by him/herself. That's why I'm excited about the prospects of a DCU.

A shared universe can be a great thing. The biggest hurdle is finding directors who are passionate about the projects. The biggest MCU successes are tied to directors who actively campaigned for the job because they love the characters. They've stumbled when they've had to resort to a hired gun.

 

[DA_Champion]

A shared universe means that you can't really tell solo stories without plot holes, contrivances, and giant suspension of disbelief.

Also, the experience of the justice league cartoon tells us that Lois, Perry, Martha, Gordon, Alfred, etc disappear in a shared universe, which is unfortunate as some of us enjoy the hero-human interactions.

 

[roach]

There is a way to do a shared universe without plot holes, contrivances and giant suspensions of disbelief...they just need to pay attention to it.

 

[Shikamaru]

Exactly.

 

[Marvin]

Speaking of post credit scenes, if MOS 2 is going to have one to connect to the JL movie, they could show a boom tube extracting something from the Phantom Zone... then the camera shows Faora on the floor with Darkseid looking at her.

You know you'll love to see not only Superman vs Faora round 2, but Wonder Woman vs Faora... but instead of the usual revenge arc, they could have Faora turning against Darkseid to help Superman and the JL. Having Superman inspiring her to be better would be a great way to develop the character and do something more creative.

That would be neat. Maybe have it involve the furies.

I'd imagine, post credit scenes that up villains only being half as cool as post credit scene's that set up other heroes. In the case of your idea, we get both

 

[Shikamaru]

It's not about getting them there in time. It's about these characters such as portman and the naked scientist sitting in an apartment talking about the universe ending(in a few hours) and then coming up with a way for their rag tag group to save it without calling people that have every right to know they might not wake up tmr?

Then actually heading out and doing it...I get how Thor was cut off from his home reinforcements(I guess) but given the speed he can fly, I don't get why he was cut off from his earth pals. Didn't bother me all that much, I prefer solo's but it's definitely not a 'non issue'

Yeah, you have a point. It is a non-issue nonetheless. I can suspend by disbelief on that. Though I don't see who they could have called anyways.