BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - Part 37

[DA_Champion]

There is a way to do a shared universe without plot holes, contrivances and giant suspensions of disbelief...they just need to pay attention to it.

How do you tell the dark knight rises if the entire Justice League can come in and fight Bane?

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

You know what I want? An Alfred movie. An entirely movie based on a day in the life of Alfred.

Let's do it.

 

[DA_Champion]

You know what I want? An Alfred movie. An entirely movie based on a day in the life of Alfred.

Let's do it.

Only a movie hater?

Why can't he get a whole series like Gordon?

 

[roach]

How do you tell the dark knight rises if the entire Justice League can come in and fight Bane?

Easy...Batman is the most territorial of the whole Justice League.

Justice League: We're here to help.
Batman: Stay out of my city.

 

[DA_Champion]

Easy...Batman is the most territorial of the whole Justice League.

Justice League: We're here to help.
Batman: Stay out of my city.

OK, so after Batman disappears for a few months they keep staying out and watch as many people die.

That makes sense.

 

[Crimson King]

How do you tell the dark knight rises if the entire Justice League can come in and fight Bane?

How do they do it in the comics?

This question always comes up from naysayers in the MCU threads. It's not so insurmountable. All it takes is planning and common sense. In addition to Bane saying that any army action would have resulted in the bomb going off, he could have added that if he saw a member of the JL anywhere, the people were dead. Simple.

 

[The Guard]

A shared universe means that you can't really tell solo stories without plot holes, contrivances, and giant suspension of disbelief.

All which plague most films, period. Hardly a reason to avoid the concept.

Also, the experience of the justice league cartoon tells us that Lois, Perry, Martha, Gordon, Alfred, etc disappear in a shared universe, which is unfortunate as some of us enjoy the hero-human interactions.

Supporting characters disappeared during a JUSTICE LEAGUE show. A shared film might have this issue...but a shared universe doesn't mean we'll never see supporting characters, anymore than we stopped seeing Pepper Potts when THE AVENGERS happened.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Only a movie hater?

Why can't he get a whole series like Gordon?

Because Gordon needs a whole series of 6 seasons to catch 7 criminals with the crime and corrupted police in Gotham.

 

[Marvin]

There is a way to do a shared universe without plot holes, contrivances and giant suspensions of disbelief...they just need to pay attention to it.

Like I said, marvel 616 new york is a mess of contrivances...Every time one of spidey's villains sets up a doomsday tower on a building..Or the baxter building opening a hole over the city..

Soooo much easier when it's simply Spiderman 2.

 

[The Guard]

How do you tell the dark knight rises if the entire Justice League can come in and fight Bane?

Because the issue in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES was never that no one could fight Bane.

It was that he claimed there was a secret triggerman who could blow all of Gotham to bits if anyone entered or left the city.

Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, etc, would face the same problems in regard to the larger threat.

No one knew the validity of this, or who the triggerman is/was.

 

[DA_Champion]

All which plague most films, period. Hardly a reason to avoid the concept.



Supporting characters disappeared during a JUSTICE LEAGUE show. A shared film might have this issue...but a shared universe doesn't mean we'll never see supporting characters, anymore than we stopped seeing Pepper Potts when THE AVENGERS happened.

Pepper Potts was meaningless in the avengers.

I'm surprised that you don't consider plot holes a major issue.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Because the issue in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES was never that no one could fight Bane.

It was that he claimed there was a secret triggerman who could blow all of Gotham to bits if anyone entered or left the city.

Superman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, etc, would face the same problems in regard to the larger threat.

No one knew the validity of this, or who the triggerman is/was.

Superman could you know. Use his superspeed, find the bomb, and throw it into the sun in 5 seconds.

 

[The Guard]

I do consider them an issue. I'm saying a shared universe isn't going to have plot holes just because it's a shared universe.

Plot holes exist because plot holes were allowed to exist. Not just because.

 

[DA_Champion]

Superman could you know. Use his superspeed, find the bomb, and throw it into the sun in 5 seconds.

They could just have more and more exposition about the bomb, like they did with the codex, to make it plothole-proof ;-)

 

[The Guard]

Pepper Potts was meaningless in the avengers.

So?

Supporting characters usually aren't all that central to a superhero team's story.

 

[The Guard]

They could just have more and more exposition about the bomb, like they did with the codex, to make it plothole-proof ;-)

Pretty much.

And that's a valid approach.

 

[DA_Champion]

So?

Supporting characters usually aren't all that central to a superhero team's story.

Depends what you like. Some of us enjoy Superman's and Batman's supporting cast. You'll notice that the Clois romance is a major selling point of the superman character, you might also notice that one of the most popular novels of the past twenty years (Twilight) can be argued to be a bad Clois fan fiction. Some of us also really like the Daily Planet environment (Lois and Clark: TNAoS), or the issue of Martha and Jonathan raising an alien being (Smallville).

These are interesting stories to tell, and they cannot help but disappear into meaninglessness if there is too much focus on team-up movies.

 

[Marvin]

How do they do it in the comics?

This question always comes up from naysayers in the MCU threads. It's not so insurmountable. All it takes is planning and common sense. In addition to Bane saying that any army action would have resulted in the bomb going off, he could have added that if he saw a member of the JL anywhere, the people were dead. Simple.

I don't think it's quite so simple.
For starters bane hasn't pulled that kinda move in the comics(I haven't read in a while), TDKR was pretty bold and unique in that way. If anything, when batman's back was broken, it was left to the 'bat family' to handle the city.

Secondly, bane's threat about seeing and keeping any military out of gotham, very much applies to the best humanity has to offer, not so much the dudes with light speed travel and invisibility(jets) and mind control etc. Just saying, it's not so simple. TDKR was very much a unique and opportune situation in which superpowered fiends just couldn't exist...right down to getting rid of a nuke.

 

[Dk1201]

So any news this up coming week?

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Depends what you like. Some of us enjoy Superman's and Batman's supporting cast. You'll notice that the Clois romance is a major selling point of the superman character, you might also notice that one of the most popular novels of the past twenty years (Twilight) can be argued to be a bad Clois fan fiction. Some of us also really like the Daily Planet environment (Lois and Clark: TNAoS), or the issue of Martha and Jonathan raising an alien being (Smallville).

These are interesting stories to tell, and they cannot help but disappear into meaninglessness if there is too much focus on team-up movies.

Or Alfred.

Speaking of Alfred, I found a conversation between Jeremy Irons and Ben Affleck about Superman/Batman. It went like this.

 

[DA_Champion]

Levi the link doesn't work.

Anyway, if they made a well-written movie about Lois and Clark investigating something with Superman barely showing up, I'd love it, though I realise half this forum would explode.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

It's imgur. Also it's inside the spoiler.

 

[Smallville13]

Superman could you know. Use his superspeed, find the bomb, and throw it into the sun in 5 seconds.

This brings up an interesting issue. Does anyone really want their Superman like that?

I honestly don't think he should be that fast and powerful until like 10 years into his career. But I'd prefer for the cinematic universe that he be Fleischer/Timmverse strength. It was why I was alright with him craning his head back when he got shot there in Smallville. And Faora getting taken out by a missile.

It would at least balance out the justice league a bit more. Have Superman still be the all-rounder I guess, but not to the extreme extent that he's got all their strength, Flashes speed, and Batmans intelligence.

 

[Marvin]

This brings up an interesting issue. Does anyone really want their Superman like that?

I honestly don't think he should be that fast and powerful until like 10 years into his career. But I'd prefer for the cinematic universe that he be Fleischer/Timmverse strength. It was why I was alright with him craning his head back when he got shot there in Smallville. And Faora getting taken out by a missile.

It would at least balance out the justice league a bit more. Have Superman still be the all-rounder I guess, but not to the extreme extent that he's got all their strength, Flashes speed, and Batmans intelligence.

The more you limit him, the more opportunities to have him fail. See Jon Kent's death, and all that other stuff he could have solved in MOS, if he had his full comic book abilities.

Granted that might mean you confuse fans as to why he's not omnipotent but it helps the tension in the long run. Have him bee jet fast but not flash fast.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Superman is never Flash fast. Even Grant Morrison's Superman (but that's because he also writes Flash as the ultimate expression of speed).