BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

[MrsKent26]

You missed the point, yes Zod is a threat, but in a lot of these films, the villain is not the main threat:

X-Men- Magneto is the villain, the more pressing matter is the machine in the Statue of Liberty
X-2- Stryker is the villain, the more pressing matter is Charles potentially killing all humans.
Spider-Man- Similar to Man of Steel, the pressing matter of children vs Mary Jane is tackled before Goblin, though Goblin defeats himself.
Spider-Man 2- Fusion reactor and MJ
Batman Begins- Fear gas monorail
The Dark Knight- Although not the final villain, Batman has to worry about the boats as well as Joker.
The Dark Knight Rises- Nuclear warhead
Superman Returns- New Krypton
Iron Man- Low power arc reactor
Iron Man 2- Self destructice armours
Captain America- The ship that would attack the US east coast
Green Lantern- Parallax is still coming
The Avengers- The Chitauri army
The Winter Soldier- The Helicarriers
The Dark World- The Aether

And on and on and on, in all these films, whether you consider them good or bad, the villain is not the main threat. Whether the villain is defeated is not the point, because they've still got the more pressing matter to attend to.

That does not exist in Man of Steel, had Superman killed Zod by forcing him into the Phantom Zone with the World Engine that was destroying Metropolis, I think people would be more readily accepting of it.

So, because mos didn't do what these films did, there's something wrong? I think the possible loss of all human life is somewhat suspenseful. But to each their own I guess.

 

[snpklsdmbldr]

how confusing. you say they should have killed Zod along with everyone to the phantom zone earlier then complain (or point out?) that there is no real threat in MOS, that the villain is not the main threat and weather defeating him or not is pointless since they have more pressing matters to attend to.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The death of everyone on Earth isn't that suspenseful, because the scale is just far too big for anyone to comprehend. Do you have 7 billion of anything? That's why the film lowers the stakes to that family in the corner of the train station, all of us have a family. That's why thr destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars isn't that upsetting, or in The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, it lowers the stakes to Shmuel and Bruno. It's just too big.

Doing something different is great, it's absolutely fantastic to break the mould. If you do it well. I don't think Man of Steel did.

how confusing. you say they should have killed Zod along with everyone to the phantom zone earlier then complain (or point out?) that there is no real threat in MOS, that the villain is not the main threat and weather defeating him or not is pointless since they have more pressing matters to attend to.

I didn't say there was no real threat. But in the final confrontation, Zod is the main threat, Superman's objective becomes- kill Zod. When rather it should have been, defeat Zod so I can attend to the World Engine (as per many other narrative structures).

 

[113]

true story

Yep, that pretty much sums them up.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

What would you consider the "goody-goody" version?

And I'm plenty "lightened up." You made a good post and I responded. The whole "That's racist" thing is a very good joke, sir!

The nice young gentleman with the nice old father, who stops and helps everyone, even though he's in the middle of something...I know I'm going to be murdered for mentioning these movies here, but Superman 1978 and Superman Returns got it right I didn't expect the same stuff all over again, but I didn't recognise Pa Kent at all in MOS. All I could see was a suicidal mr grumpypants who mentally abused Clark. "Don't save people, or the scary people from our government will cut you to pieces! Oh, there's a tornado! I'll be right back, have to die a meaningless death now."

But enough of that.

 

[snpklsdmbldr]

The death of everyone on Earth isn't that suspenseful

ok...

...because the scale is just far too big for anyone to comprehend.

maybe that's one reason why some people didn't like or understand the movie.

 

[Goshdarn Batman]

I quite like The Dark Knight Rises, although the actual bomb sequence got spoiled months before, none of us actually knew if Bruce was going to survive, and being the end of the series, he may not have.

It's not as bad as some people say. I didn't know anything about the movie at all before I saw it.

 

[DA_Champion]

The death of everyone on Earth isn't that suspenseful, because the scale is just far too big for anyone to comprehend. Do you have 7 billion of anything? That's why the film lowers the stakes to that family in the corner of the train station, all of us have a family. That's why thr destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars isn't that upsetting, or in The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, it lowers the stakes to Shmuel and Bruno. It's just too big.

Doing something different is great, it's absolutely fantastic to break the mould. If you do it well. I don't think Man of Steel did.



I didn't say there was no real threat. But in the final confrontation, Zod is the main threat, Superman's objective becomes- kill Zod. When rather it should have been, defeat Zod so I can attend to the World Engine (as per many other narrative structures).

Llama is right.

As adolph hitler said, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

 

[sportjames23]

true story

LOL, real talk. I dunno how many times I used to see this argument when I used to post on various comic book battle boards.

 

[sportjames23]

Llama is right.

As adolph hitler said, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

Stalin said that.

And I bet people who lost loved ones on 9/11 would disagree.

 

[DA_Champion]

Stalin said that.

And I bet people who lost loved ones on 9/11 would disagree.

Especially if they lost LOVED ones, hence proving Llama's point.

 

[Naked Shia]

I think MOS did have a lot of great ideas, but the execution was really lacking. That said, by reducing the stake to the family, I felt Zod's death was organic. I don't think Kal ever thought about the "no killing" stuff before fighting Zod. But after doing it, he realized it wasn't the way to do things. Not to mention he basically killed the last one of his kind.

So basically, the climax works to me. Not to mention I can't stand a great fight scene being cut with the mcguffin. It was awesome to have the whole fight without interferences.

 

[darknight7.1]

You missed the point, yes Zod is a threat, but in a lot of these films, the villain is not the main threat:

X-Men- Magneto is the villain, the more pressing matter is the machine in the Statue of Liberty
X-2- Stryker is the villain, the more pressing matter is Charles potentially killing all humans.
Spider-Man- Similar to Man of Steel, the pressing matter of children vs Mary Jane is tackled before Goblin, though Goblin defeats himself.
Spider-Man 2- Fusion reactor and MJ
Batman Begins- Fear gas monorail
The Dark Knight- Although not the final villain, Batman has to worry about the boats as well as Joker.
The Dark Knight Rises- Nuclear warhead
Superman Returns- New Krypton
Iron Man- Low power arc reactor
Iron Man 2- Self destructice armours
Captain America- The ship that would attack the US east coast
Green Lantern- Parallax is still coming
The Avengers- The Chitauri army
The Winter Soldier- The Helicarriers
The Dark World- The Aether

And on and on and on, in all these films, whether you consider them good or bad, the villain is not the main threat. Whether the villain is defeated is not the point, because they've still got the more pressing matter to attend to.

That does not exist in Man of Steel, had Superman killed Zod by forcing him into the Phantom Zone with the World Engine that was destroying Metropolis, I think people would be more readily accepting of it.

Man of Steel - World Engine

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The World Engine was taken care of BEFORE Superman had his final confrontation with Zod. I think it should have been the other way around.

That's what I think the problem is.

 

[Charlatan]

You missed the point, yes Zod is a threat, but in a lot of these films, the villain is not the main threat:

X-Men- Magneto is the villain, the more pressing matter is the machine in the Statue of Liberty
X-2- Stryker is the villain, the more pressing matter is Charles potentially killing all humans.
Spider-Man- Similar to Man of Steel, the pressing matter of children vs Mary Jane is tackled before Goblin, though Goblin defeats himself.
Spider-Man 2- Fusion reactor and MJ
Batman Begins- Fear gas monorail
The Dark Knight- Although not the final villain, Batman has to worry about the boats as well as Joker.
The Dark Knight Rises- Nuclear warhead
Superman Returns- New Krypton
Iron Man- Low power arc reactor
Iron Man 2- Self destructice armours
Captain America- The ship that would attack the US east coast
Green Lantern- Parallax is still coming
The Avengers- The Chitauri army
The Winter Soldier- The Helicarriers
The Dark World- The Aether

And on and on and on, in all these films, whether you consider them good or bad, the villain is not the main threat. Whether the villain is defeated is not the point, because they've still got the more pressing matter to attend to.

That does not exist in Man of Steel, had Superman killed Zod by forcing him into the Phantom Zone with the World Engine that was destroying Metropolis, I think people would be more readily accepting of it.

all of those are situations or devices that were brought into play by the villain. how you separate the two seems disingenuous to me. and yes I get what you are trying to say I just don't agree with it. a villain's threat is the sum of everything he can bring to the table. his cunning,his willingness to do whatever to see his plan through, his technical capabilities,his raw power,his access to resources like money and connections to others of like mind all of this adds up to the threat total.

 

[Naked Shia]

Llama's point is clear enough to me. But I don't think that's what is at fault in MOS climax. I'm sorry pal, this is the first time I'm disagreeing with you. We still friends?

 

[darknight7.1]

all of those are situations or devices that were brought into play by the villain. how you separate the two seems disingenuous to me. and yes I get what you are trying to say I just don't agree with it. a villain's threat is the sum of everything he can bring to the table. his cunning,his willingness to do whatever to see his plan through, his technical capabilities,his raw power,his access to resources like money and connections to others of like mind all of this adds up to the threat total.

Agreed.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

A villain and their weapon/threat are sepearate. The fact that they are usually resolved separately exonerates my point.

I'm only talking about the film's pacing, so I don't think you've got what I said at all.

Llama's point is clear enough to me. But I don't think that's what is at fault in MOS climax. I'm sorry pal, this is the first time I'm disagreeing with you. We still friends?

Of course! [/Bane voice]

I'm merely trying to explain what I think could have improved a third act that is generally criticised.

If everyone just went "yep" I'd actually be a little disappointed, it's better to have a dialogue about the film.

 

[Charlatan]

I only have one big complaint about MoS and that was how Pa Kent went out.

 

[Pickleweasel]

You missed the point, yes Zod is a threat, but in a lot of these films, the villain is not the main threat:

X-Men- Magneto is the villain, the more pressing matter is the machine in the Statue of Liberty
X-2- Stryker is the villain, the more pressing matter is Charles potentially killing all humans.
Spider-Man- Similar to Man of Steel, the pressing matter of children vs Mary Jane is tackled before Goblin, though Goblin defeats himself.
Spider-Man 2- Fusion reactor and MJ
Batman Begins- Fear gas monorail
The Dark Knight- Although not the final villain, Batman has to worry about the boats as well as Joker.
The Dark Knight Rises- Nuclear warhead
Superman Returns- New Krypton
Iron Man- Low power arc reactor
Iron Man 2- Self destructice armours
Captain America- The ship that would attack the US east coast
Green Lantern- Parallax is still coming
The Avengers- The Chitauri army
The Winter Soldier- The Helicarriers
The Dark World- The Aether

And on and on and on, in all these films, whether you consider them good or bad, the villain is not the main threat. Whether the villain is defeated is not the point, because they've still got the more pressing matter to attend to.

That does not exist in Man of Steel, had Superman killed Zod by forcing him into the Phantom Zone with the World Engine that was destroying Metropolis, I think people would be more readily accepting of it.

And MOS has the world engine.....what ever it is you're talking about it doesn't make sense

 

[Naked Shia]

the world engine is resolved BEFORE the fight against Zod. So it's not the same.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

In each of those films, minus Spider-Man the villain is defeated after their plan is initiated, but BEFORE their threat is over.

In Man of Steel Zod is defeated AFTER the World Engine.

How does that not make sense? All I have said is what happened in Man of Steel in relation to other films.

 

[Pickleweasel]

So if the world engine thing was after the fight with Zod somehow the movie would have been better? No

Plus almost everything he states come directly from the villains in the film why he is trying to seperate physical confrontation with everything else the villain does is nonsensical

 

[Naked Shia]

you have the right not to agree about it being the problem of the climax. I personally don't. But there is no denying it changes the pacing.

 

[Pickleweasel]

Except no, zod is an equal threat as the world engine is. So because it was the villain that was a huge threat and not the villain's asset, his actions, or army it messes up the pacing? I fail to see how this is the case