BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - Part 46

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I didn't mention Superman II:huh:

No? Then you were talking about the same superman who has the luxury of reversing time? If only mos supes could do that. Either way, that same supes killed. So I find it odd when people accept it with him and not mos supes. Weird double standard.
 
Don't. Don't it to yourself. You'll just end up being disappointed. This is WB. Nothing BvsS related will come out of WC. :woot:

Nothing comes from Wonder Con. It is basically a place for comic writers and artists to meet fans i.e. what SDCC started out as. Any DC movie announcements will surely have to wait till SDCC.
 
Two things about this.

Firstly, superman helps people cause it's the right thing to do. We understood that much from his rhetoric about the school bus, he was raised(by someone) to ask the simple question, 'what was I suppose to do, let them die?' Good parents, unbroken household, and an access to things like Plato, I would understand that being enough to explain why he feels the drive to helps folks when he can. However this does little to explain what he 'feels' is right when his first premise(helping folks) comes into conflict with a new premise, that of taking a single life to do so. Does a good man take a singular life to save the universe? What's the right thing to do here. Neither Jon Kent(literally) nor Plato could give you that...
I'm sure a good man like Stark or even Parker could tell him.

Feeling that killing is wrong when you are out there fighting for the universe takes a specific explanation beyond, "I don't need to kill to know..".
Having the kill shot on the detonator man in a superbowl goes beyond, "I don't need to kill to know.." It takes someone that knows the answer and who know that answer better than someone that knows what it is to kill? Someone that doesn't?

Look at all the colourful marvel heroes that kill for example. Not killing isn't inherent in doing the right thing, it takes a characterization catalyst if a film is actually in the game of dramatizing imo.

Like I said, I was just playing devil's advocate with that comment. If someone says "I don't like that Clark killed Zod (I personally have no problem with it)". They will often get the rebutall of killing Zod is what gives him the rule, and that he has no reason to have not killed him.

But there is no actual exploration of why Clark chooses to do good in the film. Sure he can do it because it's the right thing to do, but he's actually scolded for doing so, and doesn't recieve encouragement in it. It would seem with the dialogue that a lifetime of choosing to disobey his father (even in his dying wish) that Clark is not an obedient son.

What motivates Clark is something I'd have rather seen than some other things.

Secondly
As much as I think the zod fight should have happened prior to the world engine(leaving a weakened torn suit, bloody superman to engage the machine), I can understand the benefits in the framing they went with:

1-The 'better' final fights in action films are the one's that 'are personal' in motivation. If you want a big emotional fight between two people but the motivation is skewed in having to turn off the device...it's not as poignant imo. Is TWS fighting cap with a clear head and because he blames him for his fate etc....or is he fighting cap so as to stop him from turning off the button. Clearing up motivation goes along way towards emotional payoff. Zod vs Superman was a step towards that, particularly given the fact that Zod was now fighting beyond any self righteous goal.

2-In this particular situation Zod himself is an atom bomb that needs to be stopped here and now so they still find themselves partially in former premise. WE and Zod are two separate world ending devices but people hare having a hard time appreciating that in zod. Often times it's doc ock and his device.

3-In most other cbms, the villain himself getting away doesn't result in the immediate or otherwise, end of the world. Joker just runs off to be scheme and be thwarted again, that is if Bane himself get's a way, the world doesn't end in 4 hours. Some other films even have other heroes/people to take up the fight..Superman here really is faced with a 'this is it' premise.

4-The framing of the big character defining moment towards the very end of the conflict...not in the middle somewhere to be forgotten. The big decision 'saves the day'.

I personally think alot of MOS' execution went against the grain of both superman and cbms, and was bound to lead to an audience that is used to convention, longing, or outright confused. I don't think films should cater to such things.

Just so other people know: This is how you should discuss with someone, comprehension of the criticism, your opinion, and then an evaluation.

And I completely agree, the Man of Steel climax is not a climax without merit. It very much does have strengths to it, however, like I say it's not also without faults, and I think perhaps the confrontation occuring with more urgency and a restructuring could have improved it.
 
No? Then you were talking about the same superman who has the luxury of reversing time? If only mos supes could do that. Either way, that same supes killed. So I find it odd when people accept it with him and not mos supes. Weird double standard.

I guess it is only acceptable as long as the rest of the movie is campy and goofy. If it is like a comedy that adults may cringe at, then it is okay to break the hand and kill a guy who is powerless. But if the movie takes itself seriously, then no, apparently it is not acceptable. So I guess the lesson is, if someone is much less powerful than you, break their bones (unnecessarily of course) and then kill them (unnecessarily as well of course when you had no need to do so anymore) but do it with a wink and a smile, then it is okay. But no wink or smile, that is bad.
 
Iron man is probably the most popular marvel character right now as far as films go...I don't think Cap or Spidey would have mattered.
 
Probably a good thing that 'voting' took place before Winter Soldier or ASM2. :D

Really not getting the amazing love for TWS online and everyone proclaiming it the best Marvel movie ever. It was good, but not as good as the hype made me think it would be. It isn't even holding as well as people thought it would, the second weekend drop is on par with Thor 2 and IM3, and will probably end up lower than MoS both domestic and WW - and people will still proclaim it a huge hit and MoS a flop.
 
I guess it is only acceptable as long as the rest of the movie is campy and goofy. If it is like a comedy that adults may cringe at, then it is okay to break the hand and kill a guy who is powerless. But if the movie takes itself seriously, then no, apparently it is not acceptable. So I guess the lesson is, if someone is much less powerful than you, break their bones (unnecessarily of course) and then kill them (unnecessarily as well of course when you had no need to do so anymore) but do it with a wink and a smile, then it is okay. But no wink or smile, that is bad.

I guess that's how it is. Hopefully Snyder takes note of that for the sequel.:oldrazz:
 
I want to believe, damn it!

I_want_to_believe5.jpg
 
Why did the killing Zod and Metropolis destruction discussion start again today? It seems to be going on in 3 different forums today.
 
I guess it is only acceptable as long as the rest of the movie is campy and goofy. If it is like a comedy that adults may cringe at, then it is okay to break the hand and kill a guy who is powerless. But if the movie takes itself seriously, then no, apparently it is not acceptable. So I guess the lesson is, if someone is much less powerful than you, break their bones (unnecessarily of course) and then kill them (unnecessarily as well of course when you had no need to do so anymore) but do it with a wink and a smile, then it is okay. But no wink or smile, that is bad.

well....as they say......a wind and a smile can go along way..........:o
 
Really not getting the amazing love for TWS online and everyone proclaiming it the best Marvel movie ever. It was good, but not as good as the hype made me think it would be. It isn't even holding as well as people thought it would, the second weekend drop is on par with Thor 2 and IM3, and will probably end up lower than MoS both domestic and WW - and people will still proclaim it a huge hit and MoS a flop.

IM3 made a billion, so I don't think it's fair to say what the final tally will be for TWS.

Who are these people calling MoS a flop? I've never heard that, and it's completely false even if someone did say it.
 
Iron man is probably the most popular marvel character right now as far as films go...I don't think Cap or Spidey would have mattered.

The difference is that, while Iron Man is popular at the moment, Spider-Man has been popular for decades. He remains their most identifiable character and one of the top three most identifiable superheroes in general (behind Superman and Batman). Iron Man just can't compete with that. The minute RDJ leaves, Iron Man will lose most of his appeal with the mainstream audience.
 
IM3 made a billion, so I don't think it's fair to say what the final tally will be for TWS.

Who are these people calling MoS a flop? I've never heard that, and it's completely false even if someone did say it.

IM3 was at 900M+ after 3 weeks in release. Cap 2 is at 470+ and is trending to a mid-600M finish. The domestic finish is now all but assured to be between 220-240M, and it is behind Thor 2 in every foreign market except for China and South Korea, with TASM2 releasing in almost every single foreign market today and taking away screens.

We can pretty much tell the final tally it will end up with since the legs have not exactly been the awesome ones that everyone was predicting based on reviews.
 
Yea the next film will end with Supes flicking Luthor in the head, Lex flying across the room and hitting a cement wall with the crunch of all his bones breaking. The camera pans back to Supes, and he gives a smile, a wink and a thumbs up. Cue credits lol
 
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