BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 96

[matt47]

Yup. Just like I am entitled to my opinion!

**** I love that movie t:

 

[Black Narcissus]

Yessir! Ahh...I forgot about Cronenbergs sorry "above CBM films" attitude also.

He doesn't have the balls to do a CBM film either!

Cronenberg did do a cbm.

 

[NoLaNitE007]

Cronenberg did do a cbm.

He has talked down about the CBMS in general since than and History of Violence is different.

 

[NoLaNitE007]

**** I love that movie t:

Me 2!

 

[Black Narcissus]

He has talked down about the CBMS in general since than and History of Violence is different.

Still counts.

You is going to jump at Scorsese for not liking them either? How dare you, sir.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Not a fan of directors who talk down to CBM films like Tarantino and Fincher.

Didn't Tarantino enjoy the Superman movies?

 

[harryoscop]

It sounds awesome!!

 

[I Am The Knight]

That's all well and good that you make exceptions based on the mythos needing to exist, just don't then go and act like it's about stuff like logic solely.

It never is with these outlandish characters.

I see now where you base you logical standards from, I suppose we all have our price, 30 pieces it seems.
Secondly, I never said they'd shut him down right a way. I said central intelligence and their equivalent would shut him down and or only let him operate under their agenda(ala what's happening currently on Arrow).

Don't watch Arrow. I think acknowledging the CIA to that level would be unnecessary.

Something like "only let him operate under their agenda" ? Ugh.

You said lots of people have seen him did you not? I said lots of people have claimed to 'seen' Elvis and Ghosts and all sorts of unbelievable crap, how does that affect my belief as an individual in this world?

Because Elvis is not a prominent, permanent form of urban justice in a major american city, complete with Batmobiles and Bat signals, sidekicks, villains that call him out in the media, people snapping pictures of him, etc.

What about batman's context invalidates the idea that just because lots of people claim an urban legend true that it doesn't all of a sudden become as such? See below

As for you contextual example of how you assume batman operates, for one, you don't know that any of that applies in this continuity. Loud or even quiet tanks(30 years worth), every night, endorsed by police(I don't need an endorsed batman for his entire career)

Which is why I said, this only works if you start tinkering with the mythos. And the big question is...Why? Why change the mythos? What is to be gained from having Batman be an urban legend for most of his career? Add some BS mysticism for 5 minutes? I assume it has to do with Superman, and how they want him to be the first "official" superhero, but if Batman as a superhero predates Superman by 20 years (or even one year) then what's the point. Batman was the first one in this DCCU.

...Secondly, all of that can be easily explained as a hoax(who is in the tank, the signal is an obvious deterrent..etc). The batman is just a myth cooked up by the twisted powers that be in a twisted city, he's not real; is a easy line reading from anyone in a movie about batman and that's the point. You can't play that game with Superman for he doesn't operate in the urban legend realm. That being said, your diatribe is contingent on batman operating a certain way, and sure he doesn't have to, I suppose that sucks for fans like you.

And I'm sure it's great for fans like you, who will swallow anything Snyder shoves down their throath?

Soooo again...Why? Why would the police put up with this hoax? Why can't people know there is a Batman in their city? Some lame conspiracy theory? What is there to be gained from all this? And for so many years? Now you're just saying "well every police officer and elected official in Gotham is crazy, so that's how this works lol". You're just coming up with random excuses as to how this makes sense, and I'm not sure why, are you so desperate to defend every aspect of this movie?

On this issue of "every night"...sorry but that's a joke. Christian Bale could tell you all the ways. But then again, I forget we aren't talking about that one, we are talking about the one from this movie right...You are the man privy to all that info I suppose.

Ah, so "virtually every night" (what I actually said) is a joke, but the police not wanting the people to know Batman exists for whatever reason is totally sound

This thing about the Tank, sorry but a 12 year old or some woman see's the ghost busters car with it's four ghost busters in it and it's giant logos plastered all about is being given affirmation that the 'ghost busters' exist. This same scenario with some non descrip vehicle at night and people aren't necessarily being given anything they will then correlate to 'the batman'. Again the car doesn't have wings and bat symbols on the hub caps, it's just a military vehicle in black. Like people seeing a fancy sword on the ground and correlating that to blade, or the big black jet and shouting Xmen. Different with Reed Richards flying car...

Oh? And who would they think would be driving that thing, exactly? Jim Gordon? come on now, people talk, journalists investigate, non-crazy police officers talk, too. So, no one will correlate this big tank to the vigilante. I mean, it looks a little different from a police car...

Unlike Blade, Bruce Wayne actually has a life, both one he attends to during the days as well as the nights, if anything Blade is way more active in costume than batman(I assume he sleeps in it if he sleeps at all). And yes, I said saving the world every weekend cause unlike batman, it's very much the world. But sure he saves the world here and there but fights the under world all the time, and yet he remains a myth to even his enemies. That you insist batman is more public in his operation, I grieve for the mythos. Not sure who I want to blame for that. Perhaps Adam West.
Batman(like Blade) could be argued the Boogyman, dreamed up to keep 'bad' in line.

Um, thanks for that little bit on Blade.

Yes, Batman is way more "public" than what you're saying. By that I don't mean that he gives public speeches or accepts the key to the city (come on) but he's a known force in his city, and everyone can see that big Bat-signal in the sky.

Also, this 30 years thing. Sorry if I'm missing something but at just which age was Wayne when he started working in costume; tank in tow and signal in sky? Again, I tend to imagine this film will fall somewhere in line with what Nolan did, and that batman didn't look like teenager in that costume, I suppose we don't know how old Keaton was in his early days. Secondly just how old is Ben Playing in this movie according to his look and reports? Give or take the years of retirement he's supposedly coming out of? Somewhere in all of that is how you are arriving at this 30 years correct?
Quickly give my your (estimated official batman)numbers if it's not too much trouble, there is a mystery afoot.

Yes...I'm just going with the number people were going with. Even if you say 15-20 years...That's still too long.

I dunno about the retirement thing. Any details?

I really hope he's not retired, because we just saw that! I might prefer the urban legend crap to having another retired Batman so soon.

let me highlight this next little bit
....right here in the bolded. Please tell me where I said that people, some or any wouldn't believe? Again you misunderstand the term Urban Legend. That is, lots of people believe in these things(happy?). Often times helped by the media. There is a difference in that level of existence and the level of belief in Superman's at the end of MOS. This difference of worldly belief and conscious understanding is what is being contrasted and explained here. Example:

JLU War, The flash comes face to face with batman and the first this he utters, something along the lines of "Batman is real?" Insinuating he's heard stories and reports and heard about the signal but..."..I can't believe the Batman is real". Not too different from the typical response someone would have if they met Santa Claus after hearing about his stories and myth for years. The batman comes face to face with the Flash knowing him to be real and guess what his response is...There's a difference. At the end of that movie when all heroes are in their presidential photo op confirming their existence..that's the sort of thing that ends an urban legend.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you need to go that far to "end" the urban legend". It's enough for people to "experience" Batman to know he exists. You're talking as if Batman works solely through his tank and he never comes out of it. That's not how he works.

Santa Claus is not seen by anyone in any form, so again, those kind of examples don't apply.

Regarding Jl: War, how many years had Batman been operating in that? I read Johns' comic, but I don't recall if they ever address that. If it's anything more than a year, it's ridiculous to me. Maybe because Hal and Barry obviously don't operate in Gotham, but to Gothamites? That dude is real, yo

Again, I'm not talking about 30 years or the tank in this comparison, only explaining how people can know and hear about an urban legend but never actually know if it's real or not for that's literally what an urban legend is. It's plausible.

"What is an urban legend? Urban legends are incredible stories – sometimes scary, sometimes funny – which have a tantalizing bit of plausibility to them. Urban legends contain many folkloric elements and they spread quickly through a community or society. The tales are usually told dramatically, as if they are true stories that have happened to a real people, although they may in fact be fictional. Local touches are often added to the legend. A storyteller might say: “This really happened last year to my cousin’s friend in Chicago.” Urban legends often carry a warning or have some significance that motivates the community in preserving and propagating it. For example, the Hook Man story (see below) is often used to warn teenagers against parking in the local Lover’s Lane."

So that's what I find when looking for "urban legends". Batman would not be considered an urban legend based on how he operates. Too many people come in contact with the Batman on a nightly (or every weekend ) basis.

This is the actual 'common sense dude' if you will.
Batman shows up in BvS and superman says, "you're real?"
And I suppose that's the end of it.

Hahaha. Oh wow, that was totally worth addind to our packed movie! Again....Why?

Comes with the territory when having an open mind. I feel the same way when I hear someone bash a cake neither of us has yet tried. Especially when they start talking about how chocolate and vanilla don't mix or some crap. I see the burden on the opposition tbh.

Well, when someone offers you a s*** cake, you know you don't want to try that stuff

 

[WBwins]

^Yeah thinking about it there is nothing to be gained by the Urban myth Batman.
Just have Batman be the first costumed vigilante and Superman be the first Superpowered Hero.No need to complicate things.

You can say that some believe Btamn isnt human to add to his mysticism no need for the 15-20yr old urban myth thing.

 

[Tv's Phil]

I've got a dumb question:

In many versions of the Batcave, it's got lots of things like platforms and so forth that required construction work.
In the comics, assuming the Batcave was set up before he had let any allies into the cave, has it ever been explained how he built it?

I guess what I'm getting at is, are we to assume he and Alfred built everything in the cave themselves or he knocked out some people so they wouldn't know how they got into the cave and had payed them to help? Does his genius carry over into building and other fields that aren't just detective work and tactics?
Hey, I said it was dumb.

 

[Micromind]

^ In some Batman comics, Lucius Fox is responsible for the tech and all other facilities that Batman uses in his Batcave.

In other cases, I would say that he (and Alfred) used some pre-fabricated structures (that are modular and can be assembled into a larger unit) to create multi level BatCave.

 

[Tv's Phil]

^ In some Batman comics, Lucius Fox is responsible for the tech and all other facilities that Batman uses in his Batcave.

In other cases, I would say that he (and Alfred) used some pre-fabricated structures (that are modular and can be assembled into a larger unit) to create multi level BatCave.

I could buy that.
The only reason it popped into my head was I saw that image from Hush that showed a wide shot of the cave and he has all the old Batmobiles on what looks like...well...I'll just post it.

 

[matt47]

That is so cool.
On the other topic, I never got it either. I mean, I don't exactly know what goes into making those platforms but damn it does not look like a two man job.

 

[dhandler01]

By the time of Hush I would guess he had help from some of his League friends with abilities

that said I find it best not to question such things...it only leads to more questions and destroys the myth

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

I've got a dumb question:

In many versions of the Batcave, it's got lots of things like platforms and so forth that required construction work.
In the comics, assuming the Batcave was set up before he had let any allies into the cave, has it ever been explained how he built it?

I guess what I'm getting at is, are we to assume he and Alfred built everything in the cave themselves or he knocked out some people so they wouldn't know how they got into the cave and had payed them to help? Does his genius carry over into building and other fields that aren't just detective work and tactics?
Hey, I said it was dumb.

[YT]QELRiIeJY1U[/YT]

 

[Marvin]

It never is with these outlandish characters.

That such a thing can make as little sense as the next thing but the former is validated by how much one simply likes it and what it allows avenue to. Rendering the actual entire discussion to that of preference and absolutely nothing more though people play at more when they mention things like 'logic'. That sort of fickle motivation for discussion and debate does tend to lead to going around in circles when trying to make a point. Helps to know a head of time just how much energy to waste.

Funny enough, this entire discussion could now be that of debating the various pros and cons vs any talk of logic, but I digress. Carrying on and doing us both the favor of short form.

If you don't watch arrow then and aren't familiar with what I'm getting at, I suppose if you have no experience with moments like this or this then what I'm saying probably does seem outside and unnecessary to the lore as far as you're concerned. As for operating under their agenda, yea it's pretty simple: They can shut him down(in various ways) with an order that is if he starts operating in a fashion non conducive to their 'agenda'. That is, when he stops making them happy or rather outright crosses them and their goals, a confrontation or worse will be had. But I suppose that boils down to what level of logic is convenient...If you think batman operates on a small enough scale that it doesn't interfere with gov't intelligence/policy even in the face of international terrorist such as Ra's than I suppose that's that.

Which is why I said, this only works if you start tinkering with the mythos. And the big question is...Why? Why change the mythos? What is to be gained from having Batman be an urban legend for most of his career? Add some BS mysticism for 5 minutes? I assume it has to do with Superman, and how they want him to be the first "official" superhero, but if Batman as a superhero predates Superman by 20 years (or even one year) then what's the point. Batman was the first one in this DCCU.

And I'm sure it's great for fans like you, who will swallow anything Snyder shoves down their throath?

Soooo again...Why? Why would the police put up with this hoax? Why can't people know there is a Batman in their city? Some lame conspiracy theory? What is there to be gained from all this? And for so many years? Now you're just saying "well every police officer and elected official in Gotham is crazy, so that's how this works lol". You're just coming up with random excuses as to how this makes sense, and I'm not sure why, are you so desperate to defend every aspect of this movie?

I think alot of things are to gain from this sort of premise, the first of which being that of adding diversity to the cinematic mythos that came before. I know how fan are with change but I respect how the GA is as well. Always a plus in my book moreover, if you can present a batman that has been able to work above full exposure, it actually follows through and highlights his ability to be 'great', Did batman's return in TDKR have to be televised? What does that say about his 'ability' etc. That is it's a mark of skill and execution. The same mark given to the winter solider or some double 0 agent or even blade for remaining aloof to the helicopter spotlight.
I can go on but actually the bigger question is what exactly does it take away? What precisely and so precious is removed from 'the way batman operates' that you find a 20 year mythos can't do without. Again just curious. Surely not flamboyant car chases and city battles...If it's the signal, then more on that later.
I care little that batman was there first, Dr. Fate was there before either of them. It's precisely about how exactly they do operate. Superman in such a way(in mos) that's it's beyond fact that he's real. Batman is such a way that it's arguable.

Secondly, do you see me accepting batman having super powers and hailing form krypton? Expanding and expounding the works in the shadows premise, refusing photos ops(in canon for this very reason) and often met with skepticism, to that of some exponential year count is hardly worth the hyperbolic comparison you are proposing(accepting anything down the throat as you describe). Sorry but if you are going frame my argument, try 'better'.

I should add here though I'm sure it's understood, that given the time lines, phone cameras haven't been as prevalent for the last 30 yrs as they seemingly are today. Just saying

My favorite:
As for why the police would put up with this hoax? Unless I read that wrong, again you must not be reading my posts if you really mean to ask that. The police are the ones that want people to believe the batman is real....something along the lines of it keeps crime in line as a deterrent, especially with that much crazy in the criminal. Two recent batman stories come to mind that help explain what I'm getting at:
The Knight Time TAS episode in which Bruce/Batman had disappeared for several weeks and a crime spree erupted due largely in part to that fact. In this scenario the Batsignal can and does play an pivotal role in the fight, for criminals(especially those that talk to each other more than the public believes them) tend to respond a certain way to seeing it go up. What's more, as seen in TDKR, it does a certain something for the moral of the city as well.
The other and similar scenario was presented in Morrison/Quietly run with Bruce dead and Dick stepping in for him. Appearances are kept with that signal going up and in the services of good. Kinda plays into the nolan themes of 'symbol' and 'fear' etc..Long story short, I'm not sure where you happened upon me reasoning that the cops don't want people knowing batman exists, for I'm arguing the very opposite(save for when the cops in power actually do want him stopped). My point was very simply that of the skeptics rationale, to the point of even "It's a hoax, and one that is set up by the commissioner or powers that be to rather an effective however unconventional end. Create the batman myth and keep it going, I've seen similar war tactics used with Gargoyles and Demonic turtle Samurai in history. "All it would actually take is Gordon.." again, the skeptics.

-Who do people think is driving that car?
Well what would this skeptic think? Answer: no doubt the same person(s) or group turning on that signal every night given the agenda at work here.
Ask yourself this, if a wonderfully effective actual batman was killed outright and one night, just what would be the approach to covering up that death if you were say, the law that has been benefiting from his presence greatly? I assume it would involve lighting up that signal every so often no? I assume it could involve driving that tinted window vehicle around the city every now and then no? What would be the point of this? And in what sort of city would such a thing be allowed(hint not modern Toronto), but perhaps Frank Miller Detroit(see really really bad).

Ah, so "virtually every night" (what I actually said) is a joke, but the police not wanting the people to know Batman exists for whatever reason is totally sound

Might be more funny having read the above. At least to me anyways. So...what do you mean by every night? Seems like an interesting amount of wiggle room depending on the conversation. Cause I'm strictly looking at what's been presented in these accepted movies(as this next one will no doubt be..a movie).

Yes...I'm just going with the number people were going with. Even if you say 15-20 years...That's still too long.

I dunno about the retirement thing. Any details?

I really hope he's not retired, because we just saw that! I might prefer the urban legend crap to having another retired Batman so soon.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you need to go that far to "end" the urban legend". It's enough for people to "experience" Batman to know he exists. You're talking as if Batman works solely through his tank and he never comes out of it. That's not how he works.

15 years eh, half the time...
I've heard the word semi retired brought up a few times, who knows I suppose. As for your hope, at least you've established that it's in fact a matter of preference...I don't know, I hear lot's of people seemed to get on board with the last batman movies, and DKR for that matter. What's more, given the last incarnation of batman went into retirement, having this one come out of it might just be 'pro' in the grand scheme.

As for the out of tank appearances, no, I'm talking as if batman doesn't swing around the city like 'spider - man' or superman. I'm talking about him as if the majority of sightings by the 'public' have never actually been of he himself, yes and the room for plausibility that creates. Kinda how there is room for plausibility created by Clark Kent's glasses and slouch.
And the Santa example works again not in that its' comparable in it's circumstance(though plenty of people actually do see him, some people even take photos on his knee), but it's comparable in explaining the difference between knowing something is real and thinking it may be. Various people 'experiencing' batman isn't the same as knowing he exists, sorry. This is where I pull up one of my fickle example about the lengths 'experiencing' can go before it becomes real. It can be stretched pretty far in a valid narrative, given batman's existence there is already plenty of stretching. Hell, billions of people experience Jesus and the holy ghost every sunday(some even see him), That batman can operate in his city and elicit mass skepticism to his actual existence vs heroes like the FF is, what it is..

I didn't propose adding anything to 'our packed movie', I used that fictional interaction to explain my point about how would meet if it happened..

If you read nothing else than read this, and inclosing:
As for JLU war, again, the point wasn't that of specifics but rather the different levels of belief that can exist. That being, at the end of MOS, batman can show up in Metropolis knowing Superman is real, not only because everyone in the city KNOWS it to be true but their is plenty of clear footage with him and lots of other stuff that even the most stringent(or casual) skeptic would have an impossible time explaining. Whereas if Superman shows up in Gotham, he could(not saying he should or will) very well have to investigate as to if the batman is real or not! Whether there is truth to the myth, whether the batsingal (now with the tarp on it) served any purpose beyond the state of mind benefits, maybe even have an investigative journalist conversation with the law about it, maybe even see for himself if it actually calls anyone, or anything(creature, it has presumably been a good while since any reported...etc.
Again, this very basic difference and the inner workings that allow for it is all I'm am actually arguing here. Something I'm assuming is impossible without completely undermining the oh so important batman mythos. And minutia of how you see him operating.

Well, when someone offers you a s*** cake, you know you don't want to try that stuff

You're problem is how you define **** cake. If I may try a hand at what you are doing: "Guess what guys, they are making a superman movie in which Lex Luthor is actually a fairly young man..and not even bald....the mythos and the logic... Anyone that accepts this..**** cake."
Point being, your definition of **** vs mine.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I could buy that.
The only reason it popped into my head was I saw that image from Hush that showed a wide shot of the cave and he has all the old Batmobiles on what looks like...well...I'll just post it.

This is the kind of Batcave I expect to see though, none of this Nolan minimalist BS.

This thing needs to be huge and I'm sure Snyder won't disappoint in that regard.

Also: Batman Forever batmobile in lower left corner, (DING!)

 

[I Am The Knight]

That such a thing can make as little sense as the next thing but the former is validated by how much one simply likes it and what it allows avenue to. Rendering the actual entire discussion to that of preference and absolutely nothing more though people play at more when they mention things like 'logic'. That sort of fickle motivation for discussion and debate does tend to lead to going around in circles when trying to make a point. Helps to know a head of time just how much energy to waste.

I don't like this rumor because I don't think it adds anything or makes sense, of course it's about what I "prefer". You simply seem to be defending this because you loved MOS dearly.

Funny enough, this entire discussion could now be that of debating the various pros and cons vs any talk of logic, but I digress. Carrying on and doing us both the favor of short form.

If you don't watch arrow then and aren't familiar with what I'm getting at, I suppose if you have no experience with moments like this or this then what I'm saying probably does seem outside and unnecessary to the lore as far as you're concerned. As for operating under their agenda, yea it's pretty simple: They can shut him down(in various ways) with an order that is if he starts operating in a fashion non conducive to their 'agenda'. That is, when he stops making them happy or rather outright crosses them and their goals, a confrontation or worse will be had. But I suppose that boils down to what level of logic is convenient...If you think batman operates on a small enough scale that it doesn't interfere with gov't intelligence/policy even in the face of international terrorist such as Ra's than I suppose that's that.

When reading/watching a Batman story, I'm interested in how Batman solves a problem. I'm not interested in what the CIA is doing or how they react to him or international terrorists. I would assume most people never really wondered what the CIA was up to through decades of Batman. Batman is not about the CIA. Can the CIA be part of his stories sometimes? Sure, but they are not a focal point and they don't matter at all. Just because the producers decided to pursue an specific plot point like doesn't mean that you need at all. Batman is not about that

I think alot of things are to gain from this sort of premise, the first of which being that of adding diversity to the cinematic mythos that came before.

Completely unnecesary diversity that will probably be glossed over so we can focus on how cool Batman looks.

I know how fan are with change but I respect how the GA is as well. Always a plus in my book moreover, if you can present a batman that has been able to work above full exposure, it actually follows through and highlights his ability to be 'great', Did batman's return in TDKR have to be televised? What does that say about his 'ability' etc. That is it's a mark of skill and execution. The same mark given to the winter solider or some double 0 agent or even blade for remaining aloof to the helicopter spotlight.

It's not really about change, all Batman movies change stuff, sometimes because they feel they have to and other times because a director prefers a certain approach. That doesn't make it necessary, or good, and we are allowed to question the logic behind it, which I think might have to do with the Superman thing mixed with Snyder's love of TDKR.

For me, Batman's greatness isn't defined by how "sneaky" he is, but rather all these other elements like his intellect, physical prowess and determination. Yeah, he's also sneaky and mysterious, but people know he exists. Him being sneaky for 20 years doesn't reflect on how great he is, but how dumb everyone else is.

I can go on but actually the bigger question is what exactly does it take away? What precisely and so precious is removed from 'the way batman operates' that you find a 20 year mythos can't do without. Again just curious. Surely not flamboyant car chases and city battles...If it's the signal, then more on that later.
I care little that batman was there first, Dr. Fate was there before either of them. It's precisely about how exactly they do operate. Superman in such a way(in mos) that's it's beyond fact that he's real. Batman is such a way that it's arguable.

It changes the mythos for no real good reason. It changes the way he operates. It changes the way he interacts with his villains (some of the love to use TV, as you well know), it changes the way he interacts with people (Batman isn't just about beating criminals, he also you know interacts with regular folks like Leslie Thompkins and city officials like the mayor....In short, he can talk to anyone), it changes the way the police interact with him, the way the people know him, etc. It potentially removes Robin, since now you have not one but two people who have to extremely sneaky, or a Batman who never had a Robin. Even Nolan felt he had to add Robin (poorly) because he was too important to the mythos or something.

Secondly, do you see me accepting batman having super powers and hailing form krypton? Expanding and expounding the works in the shadows premise, refusing photos ops(in canon for this very reason) and often met with skepticism, to that of some exponential year count is hardly worth the hyperbolic comparison you are proposing(accepting anything down the throat as you describe). Sorry but if you are going frame my argument, try 'better'.

I should add here though I'm sure it's understood, that given the time lines, phone cameras haven't been as prevalent for the last 30 yrs as they seemingly are today. Just saying

Oh, so now it is 30 years eh anyone could snap a picture of the Batman in the 80's. They wouldn't need cell phones to do that. And it's not like it would be enough for Batman to "refuse photo ops". People will just take the picture. Movie example: Vicky Vale taking Bats' picture in the alley in B89.

My favorite:
As for why the police would put up with this hoax? Unless I read that wrong, again you must not be reading my posts if you really mean to ask that. The police are the ones that want people to believe the batman is real....something along the lines of it keeps crime in line as a deterrent, especially with that much crazy in the criminal. Two recent batman stories come to mind that help explain what I'm getting at:
The Knight Time TAS episode in which Bruce/Batman had disappeared for several weeks and a crime spree erupted due largely in part to that fact. In this scenario the Batsignal can and does play an pivotal role in the fight, for criminals(especially those that talk to each other more than the public believes them) tend to respond a certain way to seeing it go up. What's more, as seen in TDKR, it does a certain something for the moral of the city as well.

Lol

But it's not a hoax, silly. The Batman is real. People (yes, even criminals, heck, especially criminals!) would know this. The Batman starts as a vigilante. The police want to arrest him. They issue warrants to get him out. The media covers the chase. People and criminals start seeing him. He is real.

I brought up the "hoax" thing because YOU are the one saying that it would be totally possible for Batman to be an urban legend for decades, and I responded by that saying that maybe if the police and every other elected official decided they wanted him to be an urban legend, that might be possible, but why would they do that? They would need the Batman to be real for that Bat-signal to mean anything, anyway.

Don't twist it.

The other and similar scenario was presented in Morrison/Quietly run with Bruce dead and Dick stepping in for him. Appearances are kept with that signal going up and in the services of good. Kinda plays into the nolan themes of 'symbol' and 'fear' etc..Long story short, I'm not sure where you happened upon me reasoning that the cops don't want people knowing batman exists, for I'm arguing the very opposite(save for when the cops in power actually do want him stopped). My point was very simply that of the skeptics rationale, to the point of even "It's a hoax, and one that is set up by the commissioner or powers that be to rather an effective however unconventional end. Create the batman myth and keep it going, I've seen similar war tactics used with Gargoyles and Demonic turtle Samurai in history. "All it would actually take is Gordon.." again, the skeptics.

Read above. And again, Batman needs to be considered real before the Bat-signal means anything.

-Who do people think is driving that car?
Well what would this skeptic think? Answer: no doubt the same person(s) or group turning on that signal every night given the agenda at work here.
Ask yourself this, if a wonderfully effective actual batman was killed outright and one night, just what would be the approach to covering up that death if you were say, the law that has been benefiting from his presence greatly? I assume it would involve lighting up that signal every so often no? I assume it could involve driving that tinted window vehicle around the city every now and then no? What would be the point of this? And in what sort of city would such a thing be allowed(hint not modern Toronto), but perhaps Frank Miller Detroit(see really really bad).

Yawn. Read above.

Yeah, that works AFTER Batman is considered real.

Might be more funny having read the above. At least to me anyways. So...what do you mean by every night? Seems like an interesting amount of wiggle room depending on the conversation. Cause I'm strictly looking at what's been presented in these accepted movies(as this next one will no doubt be..a movie).

Virtually patrolling the streeta every night, not just every weekend or whatever.

15 years eh, half the time...
I've heard the word semi retired brought up a few times, who knows I suppose. As for your hope, at least 6you've established that it's in fact a matter of preference...

Well duh. Cheer up, Marvin.

I don't know, I hear lot's of people seemed to get on board with the last batman movies, and DKR for that matter. What's more, given the last incarnation of batman went into retirement, having this one come out of it might just be 'pro' in the grand scheme.

Would that be a matter of preference for you then?

As for the out of tank appearances, no, I'm talking as if batman doesn't swing around the city like 'spider - man' or superman.

So you do want to change how he operates? He either swings through the city with his Bat-Rope or he glides with his cape. Otherwise, he uses hus Bat-tank, Bat-Wing, etc. How do you propose he move around, then....

I'm talking about him as if the majority of sightings by the 'public' have never actually been of he himself, yes and the room for plausibility that creates.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow here. Who or what would be the sightings of Batman consist of, again?

Kinda how there is room for plausibility created by Clark Kent's glasses and slouch.
And the Santa example works again not in that its' comparable in it's circumstance(though plenty of people actually do see him, some people even take photos on his knee), but it's comparable in explaining the difference between knowing something is real and thinking it may be.

You mean how children think Santa is real, and Gothamites are just like children, or something...

Various people 'experiencing' batman isn't the same as knowing he exists, sorry. This is where I pull up one of my fickle example about the lengths 'experiencing' can go before it becomes real. It can be stretched pretty far in a valid narrative, given batman's existence there is already plenty of stretching. Hell, billions of people experience Jesus and the holy ghost every sunday(some even see him), That batman can operate in his city and elicit mass skepticism to his actual existence vs heroes like the FF is, what it is..

Lol

So a picture with the Justice League means he is real, but people actually interacting with him doesn't mean anything and I assume this Batman, in his long career, would have had to interact with plenty of people

Are people being punched by Jesus every other night, do they see his Jesus mobile, or hear how the police want to capture him?

I didn't propose adding anything to 'our packed movie', I used that fictional interaction to explain my point about how would meet if it happened..

Hey, I could see that quality interaction being in the movie.

If you read nothing else than read this, and inclosing:
As for JLU war, again, the point wasn't that of specifics but rather the different levels of belief that can exist. That being, at the end of MOS, batman can show up in Metropolis knowing Superman is real, not only because everyone in the city KNOWS it to be true but their is plenty of clear footage with him and lots of other stuff that even the most stringent(or casual) skeptic would have an impossible time explaining. Whereas if Superman shows up in Gotham, he could(not saying he should or will) very well have to investigate as to if the batman is real or not!

He can do that, but if he shows up and people are like "I don't know if he's real...!"

Especially these people...

Whether there is truth to the myth, whether the batsingal (now with the tarp on it) served any purpose beyond the state of mind benefits, maybe even have an investigative journalist conversation with the law about it, maybe even see for himself if it actually calls anyone, or anything(creature, it has presumably been a good while since any reported...etc.

...Then that would be very dumb, unless they, again, change the mythos and/or turn the police into "hoax mongers" of a Batman that only works on weekends using technology that allows him to move like super fast dude, and he can turn himself invisible and I hear that soon he will starr wiping minds bro!

Again, this very basic difference and the inner workings that allow for it is all I'm am actually arguing here. Something I'm assuming is impossible without completely undermining the oh so important batman mythos. And minutia of how you see him operating.

Oh, you mean the mythos that makes him great? Yeah, let's keep changing that by making this dumb addition!

You're problem is how you define **** cake. If I may try a hand at what you are doing: "Guess what guys, they are making a superman movie in which Lex Luthor is actually a fairly young man..and not even bald....the mythos and the logic... Anyone that accepts this..**** cake."
Point being, your definition of **** vs mine.

S*** is s***. But if you like it that's your problem. Or "you're" problem, so you can understand me

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Holy multi-quote abuse Batman!

 

[Quasimod0]

Too many quotes man.

 

[Enriquespy]

That is so cool.
On the other topic, I never got it either. I mean, I don't exactly know what goes into making those platforms but damn it does not look like a two man job.

I can do that...

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Holy multi-quote abuse Batman!

Too many quotes man.

All those quotes are parts of one post.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

All those quotes are parts of one post.

That's just excessive for quoting one post.

 

[the last son]

Can anyone pm me the teaser trailer

 

[Black Narcissus]

I keep replaying the fight scene between Supes and Bats in my head, I know Snyder will blow us away during that sequence. DAMN.

Sexy feelings!