Are Nice Guys Doormats For Women???

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Nell,

Honestly, you're biased. You're a guy who's had several soured experiences when it comes to women which has given you this very jaded outlook on them and relationships.

Are some women materialistic, shallow, vain etc? Yeah.

You are 24 years old. You should be out of college, taking some sort of entry level job, and living out on your own. You think it's okay for someone to still have a go nowhere job, or live at home at 24 (Not saying that's you)? How about at 26? 28? 30? When's the cut off point?

I've said this before, whomever said all you need is love, was never poor. There's nothing wrong with a woman wanting to live comfortably. Do you think a 28 year old woman wants a guy who still lives at home, works at some dinky job because that's what he's comfortable at?

As people grow older, their priorities change. Yeah it's fine if you are both college students, having fun. But after college, responsibility comes into play and yes a lot women get the epiphany that the a'hole types aren't really marriage material.

And coming to "a good man is hard to find", I'm sure you can ask most women and I'm sure their a'hole to good guy ratio swings more towards the a'hole. I'm sure a lot of the female posters here, can tell you how many a'holes they had to date before they found the right one, or how they find it hard to find a good guy.

You're right, I am bias, or jaded, or whatever you want to call it.

The reason why, is because simply put, I know that I have a lot to offer. Okay, right now, I might be working some ****ty job or whatever. But seriously, why does that matter? I know that people want to live comfortably. That's not a female trait. That's a human trait. We all want to live comfortably. We all want to have money. But there -are- more important things.

Why should I be put into a position where I can't find that happiness just because I'm an assistant manager at a retail job, instead of having some kind of office / desk job?

The reason why I'm bias is because I know that I have a lot to offer. Sure, on the outside, it seems kinda lame - I still live at home, I'm still going to school, and I work a retail job. But those are all details on the surface that don't define who I am as a person. It's like if a woman ever asks me what I'm doing, I will have to lie to her because the woman won't even give me a chance to get to know who I am, because of what I'm doing. And that's bull****. That's -shallow-.

I am bias because I do have a lot to offer, but women never even take the time to get to know me. My lack of dates isn't for lack of effort. I meet women just fine. I talk to women just fine. And I've asked out quite a few women. Sometimes I'm a moron, and they turn me down, and I understand. Sometimes, I like to think I handled it pretty smoothly (not throwing cheesy lines and acting sly, but just acting cool and confident). Gets me nowhere. Sometimes, the women are respectful enough to handle the situation maturely, and even though I get a rejection out of it, I can deal with it because it just didn't work out, and sometimes, that happens.

But I -do- have a lot to offer, but the only women who actually take the time to get to know me are women who are my friends, who don't have any threat of me being anymore. And yes, I did purposefully use the word "threat", because in my experience, it seems that women look at relationships as "threats" - as a "last resort". They won't enter into a relationship unless they absolutley have to, because usually the guy is an ******* and won't give them what they want unless he's banging them.

Women who I approach, who I talk to, who I am trying to attract, seem to have their mind made up before they ever even talk to me. If you knew me, and you knew the experiences I went through with women, you would understand why I am bias. Yea, I'm on a message board, one about comic books. But I'm not the stereotypical "internet message board geek" (I'd also actually wager that -most- people on here aren't stereotypical "internet message board geeks", and are rather just people who hang out here as a hobby on the side). I'd like to think that I'm a good looking guy (although I admit I'm not the BEST looking guy, I am overweight, although I am not insanely fat. People I know say they wouldn't even call me fat, just "big"). Even though right now my situation -isn't- the best (24, still going to college, and working retail), I am going places, it just took me a bit longer to get on that path. I'm not at home because I'm too afraid to get out. I'm still at home because in the area that I'm at, it's a bit harder for people to get out on their own. I know lots of people my age still living at home. It's not because they are losers, it's because sometimes that's just how things work.

But women don't want to take the time to get to know that. Because on the outside, I'm not all flashy and glamorous, they label me as "uninteresting", "unconfident", "unambitious", and use those generic, ****ty labels to say that the "good guy" isn't "exciting".

So, basically, women -say- they want the good guy, but in actuality, they want materialstic value. That's not always cars or money - but they want "excitement", they want "spontanaity", they want "surprise trips" or vacations.

They don't want the guy who's going to be there for them emotionally, and treat them with love, and respect, and dignity. Yea, maybe I would do anything for her. Doesn't mean I'm a pushover. Yea, maybe my situation right now isn't glamorous. Doesn't mean I'm uninspired and not ambitious.

These are weak labels that women use to justify some ****ty judgement in men, because they went with some *******, but he was "a challenge", he was "exciting". That's just as shallow as picking a man because of who he knows, or the car that he drives. And all this "good guys are pushovers" garbage is just a pathetic attempt to justify that shallow behavior.

 

[KenK]

wow. . . .just. . . wow.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

The Allure of Dating Jerks!

http://msn.match.com/msn/article.as...gID=516165&BannerID=541888&menuid=6&GT1=10287

Dammit! I just cleaned my apartment last night! Better dirty it up for the weekend.

 

[Erzengel]

Lots of words, part 2.

I'm sure you have a lot to offer women. But from how your posting, you don't seem to be able to get past that initial first reaction when trying to attract women, so they don't get the chance to get to know you correct?

Which means you could be a multi millioniare and they wouldn't know. This leads me to believe maybe you aren't putting your best foot forward or you're not giving the best first impression.

I'm also curious where you meet most of these women? If you are meeting them in bars and clubs, maybe you should be looking elsewhere.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

My monitor's too dark. Is that horse's rider "of age"?

 

[Erzengel]

I can't tell.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Okay, if that female has been around the fiery ball at least 18 times, then THAT'S HOT .

If she hasn't, then that's a nice picture. Horseback riding is a fun hobby.
I was going to ask if there's any slo-mo footage of her riding.

 

[Erzengel]

Better?

 

[terry78]

You can't polish a turd, seems to be the mainstay of this argument.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Ew, Erz. That one looks like Larry Sanders.

But I feel safer ogling that ass, yes.

 

[Erzengel]

The horse doesn't look that bad.

 

[SoulManX]

And that's what's scaring me now, as it seems like my current relationship is coming to an end. The prospect of having to work that much harder to get someone was as good as, if not better than she was. And it's just boggling my mind, because she's on this whole kick where she thinks nothing of the fact that we haven't been on an actual date in over two months, and she wants me to be assured that we're still together! And it just sucks because early in our relationship, she'd always express her concern if she felt we weren't seeing each other often enough, and I would understand. And it's not like whole weeks would go by, it'd be like a day, and she'd be like "we don't see each other enough! Why don't you just want to be with me?!?" I bring up the same concerns now, especially with the "no dates in two months" thing (and no sex in the last FOUR months), and she doesn't wanna hear it. She actually told me to "man-up" and quit complaining! What the hell?!

Mind you, when we started dating she told me about the guy she dated before me, and how he essentially just stopped talking to her. He never officially broke up with her, and that seems to be what she's doing with me, because I swear to God, between her belief that man should always be the one to call a woman anyway, and the fact that it now takes her DAYS to return my phone calls, I wouldn't put it past her to do some foul s**t like that.

And it's the excuses! Jesus Christ. Now granted, her schedule does suck, it's retail and weekends are often involved, so I've always tried to be understanding and accomodating, but if ever I ask her out recently, it's always "Yeah, maybe. Let me check my schedule." Then she NEVER FOLLOWS UP!! It'd be one thing if she said, "My schedule is bad this week, sorry." But she always implies that she "might" be available, then never gets back to me to let me know she's not. And if it's not that, it's her ever-increasingly frequent visits to see her folks in Charlottesville, VA. So on top of her being out of town, I'll ask her out when she gets back into town and it's "I just feel like I need some time to myself now that I'm back from Charlottesville." Then, once it seems like enough time has passed, I'll ask her out again and then it's "Maybe, my brother (FROM CHARLOTTESVILLE, SO SHE SAW HIM WHILE SHE WAS JUST THERE!!!) is supposed to be visiting me this weekend." And again, no follow-up call or nothing.


And I'd like to think I've been a nice guy the whole relationship. You hear about guys just being straight dogs even though they're supposed to be in relationships and here I am, having no problem being a one-woman man, and caring about her needs and so on and so forth. So if it's really over, why the f*** can't you just be straight instead of pretending I don't exist anymore?!? You say I'm such a special person and you're grateful for me being in your life, but you treat me like some random dude you don't have to acknowledge after a year and a f***ing half?!?! And for God's sake, she just turned 31 (she's older than me by four years), how much time does she really have to dick around, and then down the road complain that there are no good men out there!

Ken I know where you are coming from Im having the same problem as of lately.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I'm sure you have a lot to offer women. But from how your posting, you don't seem to be able to get past that initial first reaction when trying to attract women, so they don't get the chance to get to know you correct?

Which means you could be a multi millioniare and they wouldn't know. This leads me to believe maybe you aren't putting your best foot forward or you're not giving the best first impression.

I'm also curious where you meet most of these women? If you are meeting them in bars and clubs, maybe you should be looking elsewhere.

I haven't really approached women in bars and clubs, just because I know that's where a lot of the shallow women are. Personally, I don't want just sex, or a one night stand, or anything like that.

I have had a couple experiences picking up women at bars, clubs, concerts, etc...

But mostly, I approach women that I meet through school, or work. Because that way, it gives me an oppourtunity to get to know them, without "hitting on them", and I get a chance to see what they are like, and if I feel we are compatable.

I've made some errors of judgement, and picked up on some bad women in both of these places. I've also been the "idiot" a couple times, and completely handled the situation poorly. But more often than not, I can talk to the women, and get along with them, but I ask them if they'd like to get together sometime for coffee, or lunch, or ice cream, and they come up with excuse after excuse to not go. The worst is when they say "yes", give me their phone number, and then when I call, they never answer or return my calls. And that's happened quite often.

Trust me, I'm not -that- blind. I'm inexperienced, but I know that there are plenty of times when I A. acted like a complete nerd and didn't deserve to attract the woman or B. gave up too soon at the first sign of rejection and didn't pursue it further when perhaps I still could have or C. pursued it much too hard and scared the woman away.

I know I am not innocent in the matter. But it is still frustrating when I know that I -am- doing things right, and my friends don't even know what advice to give me anymore because they say that I'm not doing things "wrong", and I'm not a bad looking guy.

 

[xGEMSKIx]

I haven't really approached women in bars and clubs, just because I know that's where a lot of the shallow women are. Personally, I don't want just sex, or a one night stand, or anything like that.

I have had a couple experiences picking up women at bars, clubs, concerts, etc...

But mostly, I approach women that I meet through school, or work. Because that way, it gives me an oppourtunity to get to know them, without "hitting on them", and I get a chance to see what they are like, and if I feel we are compatable.

I've made some errors of judgement, and picked up on some bad women in both of these places. I've also been the "idiot" a couple times, and completely handled the situation poorly. But more often than not, I can talk to the women, and get along with them, but I ask them if they'd like to get together sometime for coffee, or lunch, or ice cream, and they come up with excuse after excuse to not go. The worst is when they say "yes", give me their phone number, and then when I call, they never answer or return my calls. And that's happened quite often.

Trust me, I'm not -that- blind. I'm inexperienced, but I know that there are plenty of times when I A. acted like a complete nerd and didn't deserve to attract the woman or B. gave up too soon at the first sign of rejection and didn't pursue it further when perhaps I still could have or C. pursued it much too hard and scared the woman away.

I know I am not innocent in the matter. But it is still frustrating when I know that I -am- doing things right, and my friends don't even know what advice to give me anymore because they say that I'm not doing things "wrong", and I'm not a bad looking guy.

Nice way of thinking. Nothing wrong with acting like a nerd. Everyone gets rejected, its just life

 

[Erzengel]

I haven't really approached women in bars and clubs, just because I know that's where a lot of the shallow women are. Personally, I don't want just sex, or a one night stand, or anything like that.

I have had a couple experiences picking up women at bars, clubs, concerts, etc...

But mostly, I approach women that I meet through school, or work. Because that way, it gives me an oppourtunity to get to know them, without "hitting on them", and I get a chance to see what they are like, and if I feel we are compatable.

I've made some errors of judgement, and picked up on some bad women in both of these places. I've also been the "idiot" a couple times, and completely handled the situation poorly. But more often than not, I can talk to the women, and get along with them, but I ask them if they'd like to get together sometime for coffee, or lunch, or ice cream, and they come up with excuse after excuse to not go. The worst is when they say "yes", give me their phone number, and then when I call, they never answer or return my calls. And that's happened quite often.

Trust me, I'm not -that- blind. I'm inexperienced, but I know that there are plenty of times when I A. acted like a complete nerd and didn't deserve to attract the woman or B. gave up too soon at the first sign of rejection and didn't pursue it further when perhaps I still could have or C. pursued it much too hard and scared the woman away.

I know I am not innocent in the matter. But it is still frustrating when I know that I -am- doing things right, and my friends don't even know what advice to give me anymore because they say that I'm not doing things "wrong", and I'm not a bad looking guy.

The only advice I can tell you is not to give up. Even if you have to get turned down 99 times for that 1 time for something to happen is worth it.

Because honestly, all the biasness, negativity, can really stay with you and before you know it, it might sour some new relationship or something you'd like to start.

You're still a young dude, who just taken a while to reach his stride.

 

[kainedamo]

It can be very very tough for some guys. I sympathize with Nell's situation. But, are you the guy who earlier talked about hooking up with some drunk girl who kept changing her mind, or was that someone else? If it was you Nell, ya only really have yourself to blame for that one. You should have learned the first time that that girl wasn't together.

Why not go to the gym, Nell? Not only is the gym gonna improve your body, but its also heaps of fun, and migt higher your confidence in yourself.

Like Erz said, ya gotta keep trying. There was awhile there when I was feeling EXTREMELY bitter about not being able to find a woman. Then I realized, I was looking for them in the wrong places. But it can be extremely tough for some guys.

I don't think the guys that find it a bit easier understand how tough it can be for other guys.

My current situation is that I just don't have anywhere to meet women. No women in work - at work I usually sit at my own desk. Not much opportunity to talk or get to know people, though there are one or two pretty girls. Maybe when I start classes later this year there will be some girls there.

But even still, I do find that I am intimidated by pretty girls.

 

[psychocheeseman]

You're right, I am bias, or jaded, or whatever you want to call it.

sorry dude, didn't want to re quote the whole bit.
But its seems like you have some low self confidence issues that might be clouding your perceptions as to what women are thinking.

The happier you are in yourself the more likely women are to respond favourably to you. I know it seems like a catch 22 type "need girl for confidence - need confidence to get girl".

Your sound like a pretty interesting dude, just gotta loose all the resentment.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I haven't really approached women in bars and clubs, just because I know that's where a lot of the shallow women are. Personally, I don't want just sex, or a one night stand, or anything like that.

First of all, you aren't in a position (in fact almost no one is) to be cutting off any of your avenues. Even if they are shallow, dumb, or stuck up at these "Bars" (and trust me there is NO way you can make a generalization like that). Talking and interacting is talking and interacting. Women are everywhere you go, whether it's at a bar, or a gym or a classroom. And in any given situation you run the odds of meeting women you do and don't like. Just the way it is. But you never EVER want to cut out an option. Number one problem guys make is saying "I don't like this". I tell you what, if you don't like it, pick a weekend and go to all these places you "don't like". Trying new things and going out on lofty or risky ventures to meet people can yield interesting results.

I have had a couple experiences picking up women at bars, clubs, concerts, etc...

But mostly, I approach women that I meet through school, or work. Because that way, it gives me an oppourtunity to get to know them, without "hitting on them", and I get a chance to see what they are like, and if I feel we are compatable.

Women like to flirt. Biological fact. Don't know why, but women like it. And I would go so far as to say they may like it more than men. Men don't seem to flirt with eachother (unless...you know). And women, even in the workplace or classroom like to flirt. It's silly, it's funny, but most of all it shows her you have a sense of humor and self confidence. Why? Because when you flirt it shows you aren't so hung up about yourself that you can't let go. You don't have to overdo it, but definitely don't take yourself so seriously all the time.

I've made some errors of judgement, and picked up on some bad women in both of these places. I've also been the "idiot" a couple times, and completely handled the situation poorly.

Everyone has. Trust me. My line of mistakes sometimes are far more...ahem...criminal...that yours.

But more often than not, I can talk to the women, and get along with them, but I ask them if they'd like to get together sometime for coffee, or lunch, or ice cream, and they come up with excuse after excuse to not go. The worst is when they say "yes", give me their phone number, and then when I call, they never answer or return my calls. And that's happened quite often.

Sounds like they sense you lack self confidence and or you are bad at picking up on social cues for when you are suppose to ask for the phone number, date, etc. But ALWAYS, always get a phone number first, it's the okay to ask them out.

Trust me, I'm not -that- blind. I'm inexperienced, but I know that there are plenty of times when I A. acted like a complete nerd and didn't deserve to attract the woman or

Problem "A" right there. Nerds deserve women just as much as jocks and frat boys. And nerds can be cool too.

B. gave up too soon at the first sign of rejection and didn't pursue it further when perhaps I still could have or C. pursued it much too hard and scared the woman away.

I'd say "C" is probably the mistake you make most often. Most guys come on too hard. My advice. Bring friends. Friends give you someone else to include in the conversation, that way you make it more of a low pressure social gathering.

 

[Ghostvirus]

I was at the Market today, & there was a woman checking me out. I unfortunetely didn't do anything because I was f-ing pissed from the heat, & a little delirious.

Now that I am home, & cooled off I am a little pissed I didn't roll up on that, & run my heated exhausted game.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Problem "A" right there. Nerds deserve women just as much as jocks and frat boys. And nerds can be cool too.

When I say nerd, I mean, a completely stuttering, incomprehensible idiot with no clue as to what is going on.

Not the common term of "nerd" as someone who sits around reading comics and playing RPG's.

An instance that quickly comes to mind - I used to frequent this particular bar weekly with a group of friends. There was this particular waitress who worked there, who I happened to like, a lot. She was always nice (and yes, I always knew it was because that's part of the job - act nice to get tips), and because I liked her, I always tipped her a little bit better. I knew that given the circumstances (me being a bar patron, and her being the waitress at that bar) that I'd probably never really have a shot, but I really liked her and wanted to try anyways. So after I had been going in there for awhile, and I knew her, and she knew me, I asked her one night if she'd like to go out. Unfortunatley, I couldn't even -pretend- to be smooth. I don't know what got into me, but I literally was like "Um... would you um... um... do you want to go out sometime... ????!?!!??!"

I am totally not like that when talking to women. But every once in awhile, it happens, and I act like a complete loser wuss. I don't blame her for not wanting to go out with me. How many guys ask her out on a freaking given night? Sure, I was a regular, but in her mind, I was no different than any of the others. But I couldn't even present myself as anything special, anything more than a typical drunken bar patron who wanted a piece of the ass on display. I was so embarassed.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

It can be very very tough for some guys. I sympathize with Nell's situation. But, are you the guy who earlier talked about hooking up with some drunk girl who kept changing her mind, or was that someone else? If it was you Nell, ya only really have yourself to blame for that one. You should have learned the first time that that girl wasn't together.

Yea, that was me.

I used to work with her. And I liked her. But she had turned me down, saying that she didn't like to mix her personal life and her professional life. That was her excuse for never being more than just friends with me.

Well, some things happened, and I got over her, because I kind of just realized that she wasn't much special, and she wasn't the kind of girl that I wanted, not like that. But we kept in touch. It helped that one of my best friends was roomates with her.

Well, when I went over to go visit my friend one night, she had called me, and told me she had a surprise for me. When I got there, it was the announcement that she was with this guy that I was friends with, this guy that we worked with...

She said she was sorry, she felt bad, because she told me "no" because she worked with me, but still got with this other guy we worked with. I was like "whatever", I didn't care anymore at that point.

Well they broke up after awhile. And since my friend was still roomates with her, I still saw her, and talked to her, and stuff. Well she called me up one night while I was at work (by this point it was a new job - we didn't work together), and wanted to go out with me after work. I figured what the hell, go out, have some drinks, and just have some fun.

That night was the first night she threw herself at me. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was a total booty call, and I was too dumb to capitolize. All that ended up happening was her and I kissed, and she told me something about sleeping with me if I didn't get any like after a month or something. Well, after that night, she began avoiding me. She sent me a message over the phone about feeling embarassed, and feeling stupid, for what she did and said, because she was drunk. But we lost touch, and didn't talk for about a year.

I got a message from her on myspace recently about how sorry she was, how she missed me, and how she changed. The message -really- sounded like she wanted to give "us" another shot (not that there ever was an "us" between us, but the possibility of it, since I did like her at one point). So when we decided to meet, I figured she'd take it slow. After all, she had been apologizing about her actions from a year prior.

Well she didn't, and she was all over me the whole time we were out. Making out, her grabbing me, sitting on my lap, laying on me, the whole thing. Well, I wasn't ready for things to go past a certain level, with her, at that point in time, so I kind of sabotaged myself from getting any that night. And then she ended up pulling the same routine - "Sorry, I was drunk. I just want to be your friend"

She said she had changed, and before her and I met that night, she seemed sincere. So I gave her a second chance. And she showed me that she hasn't changed.

 

[AndThePickles]

Tip for EVERYONE EVER-- Don't Give Second Chances!!! *fireworks*

 

[Addendum]

I don't give first chances

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

why not?(ATP)

 

[Addendum]

I enjoy ignoring others when I'm not making sarcastic and cynical comments about them.