The Dark Knight Rises Batman 3: Where does the story go from here?

[Lungrocket]

That quote disturbs me a bit. I hope they're not trying to top TDK on the epic scale. So many sequels fail by trying to be bigger than their predecessor.

Let me ask you this, and I am not trying to instigate an arguement.

But are you genuinnely worried that they can't top it in scale, or because in your gut, you don't want a villain or story to top or potentially be better than what I am guessing is your favorite character... Joker?

I am being sincere in my questioning. Not a smartass.

Cause I can see them topping it. I wonder though if elevating TDK in most comic fans minds as a masterpiece, makes them blinded to be able to seeing TDK topped.

Just a thought.

 

[Gianakin_]

i never said it did. Read more carefully. I UNDERLINED the part of his comment about SCALING IT BACK.

It should always be personal.

Fine, then replace "personal" with "scaled back". My point's the same.

 

[Lungrocket]

Fine, then replace "personal" with "scaled back". My point's the same.

Dude, that doesn't make any sense. What's your point? You're just trying to set up problems that aren't there. This isn't the first time you've done this too.

You keep trying to bate me into a situation that makes no sense.

 

[Gianakin_]

Dude, that doesn't make any sense. What's your point? You're just trying to set up problems that aren't there. This isn't the first time you've done this too.

You keep trying to bate me into a situation that makes no sense.

What? You disagreed with a poster who said that they should scale back and make it more personal, by quoting Nolan who said they're trying to make TDKR epic. That means you think scaling back != epic. I'm just saying this is not necessarily true.

 

[Lungrocket]

What? You disagreed with a poster who said that they should scale back and make it more personal, by quoting Nolan who said they're trying to make TDKR epic. That means you think scaling back != epic. I'm just saying this is not necessarily true.

Oh, my bad, I see what you mean. Your saying it can be scaled back and still be epic?

 

[BestGirl]

Nolan doesn't agree...

with Jonah Nolan currently locked in a room, beavering away on Final Draft. “He’s struggling to put it together into the epic story that you want it to be,” admits Nolan.

Just because it's epic doesn't mean it's going to be more epic than TDK was. Or maybe Nolan's using the term "epic" the same way fanboys do, as in "really good". t:

ETA: Darn it, it looks like Gianakin made my point for me!

 

[Gianakin_]

Oh, my bad, I see what you mean. Your saying it can be scaled back and still be epic?

Yes, for example, I watched TDK the other day and then BB. I found them equally, but 100% differently, epic. I stronly believe it can be done.

 

[The Joker]

Let me ask you this, and I am not trying to instigate an arguement.

But are you genuinnely worried that they can't top it in scale, or because in your gut, you don't want a villain or story to top or potentially be better than what I am guessing is your favorite character... Joker?

I am being sincere in my questioning. Not a smartass.

No, I'm genuinely worried they can't top it in scale. You've heard of the curse of three, where the third chapter of a movie franchise is usually the black sheep and the weakest. X-Men 3, and Spider-Man 3 being two of the latest examples of part 3 failure in the superhero genre.

Why on earth would I wish for a lesser movie just because Joker's not in it? That's ridiculous lol. I'm a fanboy, but I'm not insane

 

[craigdbfan]

I wouldn't mind seeing Batman fake his death to end the film in his final act to save the city from whatever threat we'll see in the next film.

Then I'd like to see the very end of the film have Batman springing to strike to stop a crime to end the series, showing the Batman is still alive, guarding the city.

This would reinstate Batman's mythological standing as an urban legend in Gotham.

But having Batman actually die? No.

-R

This I like.

Like you said if you're no longer seen as a man but as an eternal force of resilience towards crime and the unjust he becomes that "legend" that Ras mentions in Begins like so many have stated before me.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Replaced several times. That's the difference. Batman has always been Bruce Wayne.

In Hal's case it was only once. And Blue Beetle has been replaced once too, but the kid that replaced him is totally different from the beetle he was. He wore spandex and had gadgets, Jaime has a sentient armor that can make any weapon he wants kind of like the GL rings.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Wow, I'm flattered my comment has created such a fluster.

For the record, Nolan can do whatever he wants, and I wasn't looking to make a prediction of what that will be. I was talking about what I would do.

I think trying to "out epic" TDK would be a bad, bad idea. You can't top the Joker. That has nothing to do with who's whose favorite character, it's a damn near quantifiable fact. It's SCIENCE. t:

So you go the opposite way. You take the focus off the villain, and put it back on Bruce. Less explosions, maybe more investigating. More quiet moments.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

In Hal's case it was only once. And Blue Beetle has been replaced once too, but the kid that replaced him is totally different from the beetle he was. He wore spandex and had gadgets, Jaime has a sentient armor that can make any weapon he wants kind of like the GL rings.

Actually there was a Beetle before Kord. Dan Garret, who was the first to possess the scarab that Jaime now has.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Actually there was a Beetle before Kord. Dan Garret, who was the first to possess the scarab that Jaime now has.

Well yeah, but there is no replacement for Ted.

I do admit that Ted isnt as big a hero as Batman, and most people didnt really care for him until he died, but anyway...

 

[Brother Jack]

I wouldn't mind seeing Batman fake his death to end the film in his final act to save the city from whatever threat we'll see in the next film.

I don't see how Batman could fake his own death, since no one knows who he is. Bruce Wayne on the other hand could, if he wanted to completely devote his life to being Batman.

 

[The ?ion]

You can't honestly be comparing Dragon Ball (I believe appearing first in the mid 80's) with a character that has been in CONSTANT publication for more than 70 years?! Please...That's an insult to the character of Batman to compare these two.

Your pont is acknowledged but it does not invalidate my assertion. There are major characters who have died and stayed dead. I see that you avoided quoting my mention of Barry Allen. If one is going to argue that killing Batman is preposterous because heroes never truly die, then I have effectively disproven that claim. Your focus on the length of each comic's canon, is unimportant to the argument at hand.

 

[The ?ion]

@ The Joker

1) Dragon Ball is not only extremely popular in asia, it is extremely popular in the U.S.. Fourteen years after the end of the comic and the anime, video games are still published for the franchise. Not just in asia, but here in the U.S.. And they are very popular games, usually selling around 1 million units a piece. It is okay if you do not know who Son-Goku is, but an entire generation of children are as familiar with Son-Goku as they are Pokemon and Mickey Mouse.

2) Barry Allen is not a poor analogy. Barry Allen is the Flash I remember the most, because even when they killed him off when I was two years old, his name was still synonymous with the character (e.g. The Flash on NBC, which was based on Barry, not Wally). Even then, Wally was the Flash for a very long time, before briefly being replaced by Bart. Hal Jordan was dead for most of the 90s and most of the 2000s. When did they resurrect Hal? 2006? Most kids grew up with Kyle Rayner, not Hal Jordan.

Also, Batman has been replaced twice now. Once by Azrael and currently by Dick Grayson. Of course, during the former period, he was merely out of comission, but for all intents and purposes now, Bruce Wayne is "dead" and Batman is an entirely different person. And, just for good measure

- Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
- The Question (Vic Sage)
- Superman (Clark Kent/Kal-El)
- Supergirl (Kara)
- Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)
- The Flash (Barry Allen)

Barry and Hal only came back during the last half of this decade. Prior to that, Hal Jordan was gone for over a decade and Barry Allen for over two. Vic Sage has been dead for what, four years now? Same goes for Ted Kord. Kara, much like Hal and Barry, was only recently resurrected. Superman was dead for an entire year, and back then, nobody knew if he was going to be resurrected. Why do you think Superman #75 is worth so little? Everyone truly believed that the character was dead and to be replaced during the "Reign" arc. At this point, I feel safe to assert that you are just nitpicking for the sake of it.

3) Somebody said that Batman can't stop fighting crime in the film, because it is part of his "core identity" in the comics. This is an erroneous statement. Batman's core identity is as an avenger, and a human that can go toe to toe with man, alien or even deity. Being a super sleuth is also part of his core identity. Always fighting crime is a genre convention of comic books, devised so that publishers could perpetuate the sales of popular titles. Even then, it is only a genre convention for Western comic books. Manga almost always has an end (though there are series that have been on-going for decades e.g. Berserk and The Guyver, but they are rare among Japanese "superhero" manga). Furthermore, the implication of your claim is that the genre conventions of comics, must be applied to film. While that can have impressive results (e.g. Scott Pilgrim vs. The World), it is not a necessity. Film has its own series of conventions, including definite endings (though that can be cast to the wind, if a studio smells long term profit, e.g. Saw, Deathwish, Lethal Weapon etc).

 

[Lungrocket]

I think trying to "out epic" TDK would be a bad, bad idea. You can't top the Joker. That has nothing to do with who's whose favorite character, it's a damn near quantifiable fact. It's SCIENCE. t:

The Joker was a great great villain. But the film itself as in scope can be topped. I think TDK is built up as untouchable in the eyes of fans to the point where they can't see the forest from the trees.

Outside of Joker, its a crime drama (albeit a very long one) that takes some influences from Heat. The action itself feels more condensed than Begins did. The villain may be hard to outdo, but the film overall in scope is very outdoable.

So you go the opposite way. You take the focus off the villain, and put it back on Bruce. Less explosions, maybe more investigating. More quiet moments.

I've been hoping they put the focus back on Bruce/Bats most certainly. But they can still have a great villain. i would just make sure he is completely different than Joker.

But saying less explosions is a frivolous statement. The action still needs to be there as an extension of story. Being a detective is most definitely part of the character, but its still Batman. Not Sherlock Holmes. You don't need to wear a Batsuit to investigate crimes, makes the outfit feel arbitrary.

 

[Lungrocket]

No, I'm genuinely worried they can't top it in scale.

It can. I already see a bigger movie in my head. t:

You've heard of the curse of three, where the third chapter of a movie franchise is usually the black sheep and the weakest. X-Men 3, and Spider-Man 3 being two of the latest examples of part 3 failure in the superhero genre.

I don't subscribe to that nonsense. Nor should you. X-Men 3 was directed by Bret Ratner. Lol. That says it all. Spider-Man 3's failure had a lot to do with studio interference at the creative level. Since Raimi was forced to use a villain he didn't want to use.

The difference is, Nolan has more to say than Bryan Singer and Sam Raimi. He works with deeper, more complex, and adult themes. Though he doesn't like to admit it. You can tell he's got an overriding arc in mind for his trilogy. The films, even with different villains, will all add up in themes and character growth, which interconnects them that way.

I'm a fan of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Great part 3. Army Of Darkness. lol Bourne Ultimatum? Jedi? Back To the Future Part 3. Wether you are or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that it is very possible to have a brilliant 3rd film.

Why on earth would I wish for a lesser movie just because Joker's not in it? That's ridiculous lol. I'm a fanboy, but I'm not insane

Good. Cause I think Nolan is going to knock it out of the stratosphere. Plus, he's had 4 years between TDK and RISES release, unlike the two years Iron Man 2 had mandated by marvel.

WB understands Nolan and gets that he's an extremely gifted storyteller and seems to support and embrace those kind of filmmakers.

Unless they pull a 180 and turn against him, we should have a great trilogy on our hands.

 

[The Guard]

Technically, Blue Beetle has been replaced twice.

Dan Garrison, then Tord Kord, then Jamie Reyes.

 

[returntovoid]

I f'ing hate this thread, now!!!!

With all this talk of Batman must die....

Damn that line "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain", no Dent!!!!!!

It should be "You either die a tragic hero or live long enough to see yourself become the anti-hero", fixed.

 

[The Joker]

1) Dragon Ball is not only extremely popular in asia, it is extremely popular in the U.S.. Fourteen years after the end of the comic and the anime, video games are still published for the franchise. Not just in asia, but here in the U.S.. And they are very popular games, usually selling around 1 million units a piece. It is okay if you do not know who Son-Goku is, but an entire generation of children are as familiar with Son-Goku as they are Pokemon and Mickey Mouse.

Pokemon has had movies, animated series, trading cards, video games, toys, and a million other things. Mickey Mouse, he's one of the most iconic characters ever.

No offense, mate, but your analogies are way off, and you're dreaming if you think this Son-Goku character has got a quarter of the likes of Batman's or Mickey Mouse's popularity or iconic status.

2) Barry Allen is not a poor analogy. Barry Allen is the Flash I remember the most, because even when they killed him off when I was two years old, his name was still synonymous with the character (e.g. The Flash on NBC, which was based on Barry, not Wally). Even then, Wally was the Flash for a very long time, before briefly being replaced by Bart. Hal Jordan was dead for most of the 90s and most of the 2000s. When did they resurrect Hal? 2006? Most kids grew up with Kyle Rayner, not Hal Jordan.

That's fine if you remember him most. But Flash, and Green Lantern, have a rotation of changing identities. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Green Lantern the black one in the Justice League animated series, and Wally West was The Flash?

Also, Batman has been replaced twice now. Once by Azrael and currently by Dick Grayson. Of course, during the former period, he was merely out of comission, but for all intents and purposes now, Bruce Wayne is "dead" and Batman is an entirely different person.

Wrong. Bruce Wayne was not dead. They did a whole mini series where we saw him hopping through time periods. Second, Azrael and Dick were entirely temporary, and were always intended to be.

Barry and Hal only came back during the last half of this decade. Prior to that, Hal Jordan was gone for over a decade and Barry Allen for over two. Vic Sage has been dead for what, four years now? Same goes for Ted Kord. Kara, much like Hal and Barry, was only recently resurrected. Superman was dead for an entire year, and back then, nobody knew if he was going to be resurrected. Why do you think Superman #75 is worth so little? Everyone truly believed that the character was dead and to be replaced during the "Reign" arc. At this point, I feel safe to assert that you are just nitpicking for the sake of it.

I feel safe to assert you are missing the point entirely. Have any of the versions of The Flash or Green Lantern been used on short term basis like Azrael and Dick were for Batman?

Second, you're just proving my point about Flash and Green Lantern. They have a rotation of characters that stayed on a long term basis. Batman never did. Ditto with Superman. Or Spider-Man.

So when I hear absurd suggestions that Batman will be killed off at the end of TDKR, it makes me LOL.

3) Somebody said that Batman can't stop fighting crime in the film, because it is part of his "core identity" in the comics. This is an erroneous statement. Batman's core identity is as an avenger, and a human that can go toe to toe with man, alien or even deity. Being a super sleuth is also part of his core identity. Always fighting crime is a genre convention of comic books, devised so that publishers could perpetuate the sales of popular titles. Even then, it is only a genre convention for Western comic books. Manga almost always has an end (though there are series that have been on-going for decades e.g. Berserk and The Guyver, but they are rare among Japanese "superhero" manga). Furthermore, the implication of your claim is that the genre conventions of comics, must be applied to film. While that can have impressive results (e.g. Scott Pilgrim vs. The World), it is not a necessity. Film has its own series of conventions, including definite endings (though that can be cast to the wind, if a studio smells long term profit, e.g. Saw, Deathwish, Lethal Weapon etc).

Nobody said following the comics to a tee is a necessity. Nolan's movies certainly haven't. But killing off Batman, that is what's known as jumping the shark.

It can. I already see a bigger movie in my head.

Yeah, I imagine you see a lot of things in your head

I don't subscribe to that nonsense. Nor should you. X-Men 3 was directed by Bret Ratner. Lol. That says it all. Spider-Man 3's failure had a lot to do with studio interference at the creative level. Since Raimi was forced to use a villain he didn't want to use.

That's not the point. Sequels, no matter who directs them, try to go bigger and better than the predecessor. Especially when the bar gets set very high in the previous movie, like in TDK.

The difference is, Nolan has more to say than Bryan Singer and Sam Raimi. He works with deeper, more complex, and adult themes. Though he doesn't like to admit it. You can tell he's got an overriding arc in mind for his trilogy. The films, even with different villains, will all add up in themes and character growth, which interconnects them that way.

No disagreement that Nolan is superior to Singer and Raimi. That's not what's in dispute.

I'm a fan of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Great part 3. Army Of Darkness. lol Bourne Ultimatum? Jedi? Back To the Future Part 3. Wether you are or not, doesn't matter. What matters is that it is very possible to have a brilliant 3rd film.

I'm talking about the superhero genre. X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, Superman 3, Batman Forever, Blade Trinity etc.

 

[The Guard]

...the hell? Did I say Dan "Garrison" was the first Blue Beetle?

That's not like me...

 

[Bat-Mite]

Batman will get a horrible case of B.O., causing Alfred to temporarily resign due to health reasons.

Not only will Robin be in the movie, but he will lay an egg, bringing up questions about his gender and means of reproduction.

The batmobile will lose a wheel, causing it to shoot out the bat-unicycle instead of the batpod.

The Joker will escape by carving a giant chelsea grin into the wall of his cell.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Spoiler

Pokemon has had movies, animated series, trading cards, video games, toys, and a million other things. Mickey Mouse, he's one of the most iconic characters ever.

No offense, mate, but your analogies are way off, and you're dreaming if you think this Son-Goku character has got a quarter of the likes of Batman's or Mickey Mouse's popularity or iconic status.



That's fine if you remember him most. But Flash, and Green Lantern, have a rotation of changing identities. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Green Lantern the black one in the Justice League animated series, and Wally West was The Flash?



Wrong. Bruce Wayne was not dead. They did a whole mini series where we saw him hopping through time periods. Second, Azrael and Dick were entirely temporary, and were always intended to be.



I feel safe to assert you are missing the point entirely. Have any of the versions of The Flash or Green Lantern been used on short term basis like Azrael and Dick were for Batman?

Second, you're just proving my point about Flash and Green Lantern. They have a rotation of characters that stayed on a long term basis. Batman never did. Ditto with Superman. Or Spider-Man.

So when I hear absurd suggestions that Batman will be killed off at the end of TDKR, it makes me LOL.



Nobody said following the comics to a tee is a necessity. Nolan's movies certainly haven't. But killing off Batman, that is what's known as jumping the shark.



Yeah, I imagine you see a lot of things in your head



That's not the point. Sequels, no matter who directs them, try to go bigger and better than the predecessor. Especially when the bar gets set very high in the previous movie, like in TDK.



No disagreement that Nolan is superior to Singer and Raimi. That's not what's in dispute.



I'm talking about the superhero genre. X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, Superman 3, Batman Forever, Blade Trinity etc.

No man, it was one GL and one Flash at the time and they died. It doesnt matter if there were many replacements out there, the fact is that some people grew up with them and then they died. Its a big deal ok? Its not funny!

 

[Lungrocket]

Nobody said following the comics to a tee is a necessity. Nolan's movies certainly haven't. But killing off Batman, that is what's known as jumping the shark.

Really don't think it is obsurd or jumping the shark for Batman to die. It's creating an ending for the character. Nothing wrong with that. Someone is going to do it at some point. Wether in comics or film.

I'd rather it be handled by Nolan, rather than it be executed poorly and for shock value.

Yeah, I imagine you see a lot of things in your head

Yep. Great ideas. t:

That's not the point. Sequels, no matter who directs them, try to go bigger and better than the predecessor. Especially when the bar gets set very high in the previous movie, like in TDK.

The bar can be crossed. For that to work, you need to up the stakes even more so than TDK.

You need a villain, who will take things further than Joker has, and makes his actions look miniscule by comparison. People might not like or know Deacon Blackfire, but the fact that he actually CONQUERS Gotham, turning it into Marshall Law, rather than just attempting to cause destruction or blow something up is a good stepping stone to being a grander villain, or at least on par.

You need to make not just Bats life a living hell, but have Bats spill over into Bruce... making he and his friends suffer...

I think it would be more dire if Alfred died too.

I'm talking about the superhero genre. X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, Superman 3, Batman Forever, Blade Trinity etc.

I know, but filmmaking is still filmmaking. They are bad films, not dissagreeing with you. But if enough care is put into developing the characters and story, they can at the very least create a solid finish to the trilogy.