BvS Ben Affleck IS Batman - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 39

[shauner111]

And then we'll have the batmobile crash underneath a huge....BOAT!!

 

[Marvin]

The chase is even more pointless considering the scene before, Batman put a tracking device on the truck and yet chooses to attack it.

now you're just trying to not get it
imo.

 

[shauner111]

So what's the point then Sherlock?

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

now you're just trying to not get it
imo.

What's there to get?

>Batman puts tracker on truck
>Batman attacks truck minutes later
>Truck gets away

If Batman didn't attack it, there would be no difference except that Superman wouldn't have wrecked the Batmobile.

The scene was ****ing pointless and the film doesn't change if you add it or take it out.

 

[shauner111]

It can be cut out for sure.

They kept that in there but cut scenes like Clark investigating Batman in Gotham. Idiotic.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

It can be cut out for sure.

They kept that in there but cut scenes like Clark investigating Batman in Gotham. Idiotic.

I feel like my biggest issue with the film is thee are so many unnecessary scenes in the film that taken out wouldn't change the plot.

-Knightmare should have been taken out
-Batmobile chase should have been taken out
-Wonder Woman should have been taken out (oh she helps fight Doomsday even though with or without her, the point of Doomsday in the film is so Superman dies)
-The kids in the Indian Ocean finding Kryptonite
-Pa Kent's scene
-Really the Superman/Batman fight is pointless. Should have been a team up with good cop, bad cop. Have Lex frame both heroes. Lex hires Clayface and will give him a cure if he acts like Batman killing people. Lex introduces a new hero in Scoot's character as Metallo who's powered by Kryptonite and is able to be more helpful than Superman since his presence weakness Supers. Have Lex then show the world Superman stabbing Zod's neck in security camera footage.

The film is so poorly thought out and done. I know the editing is a huge complain but I just remember when Bruce and Diana were talking at Clark's funeral, we then see Lois pick up dirt. Cut to Lex in prison, Batman threatens him, bing bing bing. Cut back to Clark's funeral AND LOIS IS STILL THERE HOLDING THE DIRT WITH THE SKY LOOKING THE SAME AS BEFORE!!!!

 

[Saint]

nah, he has an oxygen mask in.
This talk of lethal force would be batman running though that scene with a gun. He could easily be getting oxygen due to being gassed, maybe even found passed out, or in shock from fear or strain...etc. It's not like he's getting some sort of emergency laceration treatment due to a bullseye appearance.

As I previously stated, the individual I'm talking about is having CPR performed on him.

 

[Saint]

If Batman didn't attack it, there would be no difference except that Superman wouldn't have wrecked the Batmobile.
.

...And all those goons would be alive.

I don't take issue with Batman bugging the truck as a back up plan before his attack, but I do take issue with him killing all those guys because it was the easiest way to get what he wanted.

Well, except that part where he dragged the car (full of people) around so he could smash it into another car (full of people). The only reason I can see for him to do that is if he specifically wants to make sure people die.

 

[Doctor Jones]

It's technically true there's no such thing as an "inaccurate interpretation", but that doesn't mean all interpretations are equally good. We can debate why certain aspects are important to certain characters and why it wouldn't be a good idea to change them; Batman's no-kill rule is one of them.

Honestly, it all boils down to values. Gotham at its core is the embodiment of the worst aspects of New York, which in turn is the embodiment of modern Anglo-American society. What draws most people to Batman is the idea of a person challenging that aspect of society without losing his humanity in the process, which is something even the best NYPD officers often won't be able to do. It makes Batman a more complex character.

Mind you, that's not to say every hero should have a strict no-kill rule. Each hero embodies different values and ideas from the others, and in Batman's case he's been the embodiment of the no-kill rule to the same extent the Punisher's been the embodiment of the death penalty. It's one of the things that has always drawn so many people to Batman (or drawn people away from him), even moreso than with Superman IMO. He's one of the only characters in all of comics whose reasons for not killing go beyond just "I'm a superhero".

He's similar to older characters like Robin Hood in that sense, who also embodies a specific core of values. You can make a version of Robin Hood who steals from the poor and gives it to the rich, there's no rule which says you can't, but most people will argue good reasons as to why it should be the other way around and why changing Robin Hood to that radical extent would make him less interesting.

An EMT is seen trying to resuscitate one of Batman's victims.


The film doesn't specify, and it doesn't really matter to me either way. Sure, let's say that victim could have been a genuinely bad guy: did Batman just assume that everyone employed by Luthor or Luthor's PMC were automatically bad people and that it was okay to kill them? Or did Batman do a comprehensive background check on every employee to compile an exhaustive Kill List of who it was okay to use lethal force against? I doubt it, considering he doesn't even look into Superman that carefully, and the whole premise of the film is that Batman has become unthinkingly cruel.

See, this is why it's a problem: every option completely ruins the character for me. Batman either A) believes he has the right to arbitrate who deserves death, or B) Batman just doesn't care if they deserve death or not and kills them because they're trying to stop him.

That's the ugly truth of it: most of the people Batman kills in this movie (Martha's rescue being the exception) he does so because it's the easiest way to succeed in his plan to kill Superman. A Batman who kills not in defense of others, but because it's easy.

The sense here... it's just too much. I haven't seen much of it on this particular board in... well... ever.

 

[shauner111]

I feel like my biggest issue with the film is thee are so many unnecessary scenes in the film that taken out wouldn't change the plot.

-Knightmare should have been taken out
-Batmobile chase should have been taken out
-Wonder Woman should have been taken out (oh she helps fight Doomsday even though with or without her, the point of Doomsday in the film is so Superman dies)
-The kids in the Indian Ocean finding Kryptonite
-Pa Kent's scene
-Really the Superman/Batman fight is pointless. Should have been a team up with good cop, bad cop. Have Lex frame both heroes. Lex hires Clayface and will give him a cure if he acts like Batman killing people. Lex introduces a new hero in Scoot's character as Metallo who's powered by Kryptonite and is able to be more helpful than Superman since his presence weakness Supers. Have Lex then show the world Superman stabbing Zod's neck in security camera footage.

The film is so poorly thought out and done. I know the editing is a huge complain but I just remember when Bruce and Diana were talking at Clark's funeral, we then see Lois pick up dirt. Cut to Lex in prison, Batman threatens him, bing bing bing. Cut back to Clark's funeral AND LOIS IS STILL THERE HOLDING THE DIRT WITH THE SKY LOOKING THE SAME AS BEFORE!!!!

Well it's certainly the worst editing I've seen in a major film like this in a long time.

You can't cut Wonder Woman out off the final battle though because she's there when Superman makes the sacrifice and when he dies. I know what you mean. But as for cutting out scenes that wouldn't change the film other than making it better?

-Indian ocean
-Knightmare vision (perfect end credit scene)
-Pa Kent dream
-Man-Bat dream
-Batmobile chase (though the entrance to the batcave was cool)
-Diana actually looking at footage of meta humans (potential mid credit scene)
-Either Diana walking into a restaurant or whatever it was to see s**t goin down on TV or her on the plane looking at a tv. Keep one, scrap the other.
-Batman killing thugs from his batwing

What I would have done with the Knightmare vision at the end of the credits. They already did some inception thing where it looks like he's woken up from a dream, by Flash...then he wakes up again dressed the same, in the cave. So after the Flash yelling, I would change it so when Bruce wakes up, it's in his bed with a gasp. Lying next to that chick. He sits up, grabs a drink, walks over to the window. It's foggy outside. Quiet. Ominous. Cut to black.

Quite frankly, I would cut the Flash part. When Batman gets knocked out by the parademon...boom...quick edit to Bruce waking up from that nightmare, in his bed, in the lake house.

 

[Marvin]

So what's the point then Sherlock?

attack a moving transport after scoping out it's limited and mercianic crime folk security

v

hope it ends up somewhere I can even find(see tracking proof bunkers) let alone get into(i'm batman), regardless of how secure and innocent the folks in place are. See the heavily mourned brutally maimed security guard Andrew.

Long story short, tracking it to wherever the hell it may or may not end up and doing the deed there is clearly a second option in relation to the opportunity afforded him in the here and now. And the only reason I suspect it isn't as obvious as it should be is because the film showed one successful and the other not.
If this were say Terminator 2: nab the sky net chip off of a semi criminal truck vs deal with what they would deal with at the official sky net facility(one in which cops can be called). Well known trope that stuff is at it's most vulnerable when in transport.
Safe to say the choice isn't as pointless as you would imagine. Unless of course you write your own movie in which you put a tracker on something and sneak in later and get it yay. Fair enough.

 

[matt47]

Well it's certainly the worst editing I've seen in a major film like this in a long time.

You can't cut Wonder Woman out off the final battle though because she's there when Superman makes the sacrifice and when he dies. I know what you mean. But as for cutting out scenes that wouldn't change the film other than making it better?

-Indian ocean
-Knightmare vision (perfect end credit scene)
-Pa Kent dream
-Man-Bat dream
-Batmobile chase (though the entrance to the batcave was cool)
-Diana actually looking at footage of meta humans (potential mid credit scene)
-Either Diana walking into a restaurant or whatever it was to see s**t goin down on TV or her on the plane looking at a tv. Keep one, scrap the other.
-Batman killing thugs from his batwing

What I would have done with the Knightmare vision at the end of the credits. They already did some inception thing where it looks like he's woken up from a dream, by Flash...then he wakes up again dressed the same, in the cave. So after the Flash yelling, I would change it so when Bruce wakes up, it's in his bed with a gasp. Lying next to that chick. He sits up, grabs a drink, walks over to the window. It's foggy outside. Quiet. Ominous. Cut to black.

Quite frankly, I would cut the Flash part. When Batman gets knocked out by the parademon...boom...quick edit to Bruce waking up from that nightmare, in his bed, in the lake house.

Funny you say that because I actually did cut the Knightmare scene with that scene where Bruce wakes up in bed a few days ago. But I put it right after the Black Zero scene to further show his fear of Superman. Then after that scene we go to the montage of Superman saving people, to show that he really is just trying to do the right thing.

 

[Kanye West]

This is a meaningless trap. There is no answer to your challenge that you cannot simply respond to with "Nah, that's just a new take," because--gasp!--fiction is not an objective experience. If Bruce Wayne became Sharkman you could still easily say "That's just a new take". The exercise is completely pointless.

When I watched the film, this "New take" on Batman murdered a security guard and it "broke the core of the character" for me.

so are you ok with the bale/ keaton versions of the character?

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

so are you ok with the bale/ keaton versions of the character?

If he says yes, you'll respond "Bale and Keaton killed like Batfleck".

 

[Kanye West]

If he says yes, you'll respond "Bale and Keaton killed like Batfleck".

yeah.
so how is that not true.

 

[shauner111]

so are you ok with the bale/ keaton versions of the character?

This another trap, because you already planned your answer. Which will be the predictable "Keaton and Bale killed!"

It's about killing people intentionally. Intending to murder a criminal or other because it's easier for you to get them out of the way, or because you simply planned a murder. Keaton killed people for the heck of it, because they were in his way, and it was wrong back then just like it's wrong for Affleck to do the same or plan out Supermans murder & brand criminals knowing it leads to death in prison. Affleck was worse than Keaton. Bale is so far the closest live-action Batman to the source material if you want to look at the movies that have been released since 1989. I wouldn't count Kilmer's version out so fast either, especially when you compare him to Keaton and Affleck. I just personally prefer Keaton because of performance/suit/surroundings. I'll take Keaton over Kilmer, but i would never say he's closer to comic book Batman.

 

[Travesty]

lol, ok.

 

[shauner111]

Funny you say that because I actually did cut the Knightmare scene with that scene where Bruce wakes up in bed a few days ago. But I put it right after the Black Zero scene to further show his fear of Superman. Then after that scene we go to the montage of Superman saving people, to show that he really is just trying to do the right thing.

Nice! I like the idea of the montage being placed earlier in the movie. Im not sure if the KNightmare vision would work after that scene though. I think it's a confusing scene unless you're a big fan of the comics and even then it still comes out of nowhere, no matter where you place it. Which is why i want to put it at the end of the film/credits where it can be its own thing that leads into Justice League.

 

[shauner111]

lol, ok.

Care to explain what it is that you find funny?

 

[Saint]

so are you ok with the bale/ keaton versions of the character?

I'm not completely okay with any film version of Batman so far, but I'm more okay with some parts and less okay with others. We're also talking about films that were made at very different times, both in terms of the film and comics industries, and in terms of my life. Zeitgeist really does matter. I don't have the same expectations of any two Batman films, really.

That said, I'll do my best to answer your question.

Burton's Batman is about as bad as Snyder's when it comes to being a bit of a psycho, but I grew up watching the Burton films and when you're six years old you don't think too much about these things. I still enjoy those films for what they are and I love Keaton's performance, but that version of Batman has some moments of uncomfortable ugliness that I can only forgive through the lens of nostalgia.

I love the Nolan movies and I enjoy Bale's Batman, but the way killing is handled in those films drives me crazy. Some of the kills bother me more than others, but what bothers me most is that he constantly does it after swearing he won't. That incoherent position on killing is definitely a blemish. However, it's a blemish that exists within films I enjoy. They're better movies than they are Batman movies.

Snyder's Batman takes killing to another level, but also has the misfortune of also occupying a movie I found to be extremely bad: a blemish within a giant, three hour blemish. Like several of the film's concepts, I like the idea of a Batman who has been through so much that he views his mission as a lie, but they took it so far that killing a guy just becomes a single point in a continuum of ignorance, hate, and cruelty so pervasive that it overwhelms the character to the point that I can no longer see Batman in him.

Or, let me put it this way: in the post you responded to, I said that I thought the character had been "broken." The film actually agrees with me, because the entire premise of the movie is that Batman is lost and broken by all he's seen and endured. When the credits roll, the movie is telling me that it's put those broken pieces back together. The problem is I don't believe it.

 

[matt47]

Nice! I like the idea of the montage being placed earlier in the movie. Im not sure if the KNightmare vision would work after that scene though. I think it's a confusing scene unless you're a big fan of the comics and even then it still comes out of nowhere, no matter where you place it. Which is why i want to put it at the end of the film/credits where it can be its own thing that leads into Justice League.

Yeah It's hard to find another place for the Knightmare scene. I cut to Bruce waking up before Flash shows up btw, I cut the Flash scene out completely.

Btw guys, what do you think about having the film end on the "if you seek his monument..." shot?

 

[shauner111]

I just want to make it clear that i have yet to see the Batman that i've always wanted to see. I mean visuals, tone, complete list of rogues, cast, story, characterization...all in one universe....all of that coming together in a perfect cocktail. Nolan's trilogy is so far my favorite but i still want to see a Bruce Timm/Paul Dini version hit the big screen. Throw in some Grant Morrison. But nothing too watered down. Keep the focus and don't get too cheesy or too "next adventure!".

I hope it happens one day, and im confident it could happen right after this Affleck version. Maybe Ben's movie can pull it off but i think they're too caught up in the Miller/Snyder way of telling this story.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah It's hard to find another place for the Knightmare scene. I cut to Bruce waking up before Flash shows up btw, I cut the Flash scene out completely.

 

[matt47]

That is one high quality gif

 

[Kanye West]

Batman in the JL cartoon's was very unlikable.