The Dark Knight Rises Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 1

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Oh yeah, not to take anything away from Harvey, but Bruce definitely lost more and I felt more sorry for him.

And it looks like he'll be getting a much even bigger dose of pain in TDKR. :p

Come on.. Harvey lost his potential wife,half of his face,great career,sanity and his life finally.

Nobody can lose more than that.
 
I still dont think Bruce did any of what he did in TDK specifically for Rachel. I feel she was an afterthought. It's shown to us that Bruce still has feelings for her and yes she is significant to him in a very dear and special way. But I dont think Bruce was championing in Dent to steal Rachel away so that they could live happily ever after. I just think that Bruce's mission was his first true love, and yes at some point he hoped he could be with Rachel after his mission was over. I def don't think Bruce was maliciously plotting to hand over Gotham to Dent so that he'd have his hands full and be too busy to notice Rachel having candle light dinners with him at Wayne manor.

I think, had there been another DA who was just as sincere in wanting to rid Gotham of crime, things would have went down the same way. Bruce would still be looking for a way out, and after Gotham was in good hands, THEN he could be with Rachel and have a good life.

Only difference is that Rachel would still be alive. Her death was by association, not circumstance.

I completely agree. I don't think Bruce was even portrayed as having this higher-agenda to push Dent to the foreground so he could have Rachel for himself -- he'd have done that with our without his "social life" (The Long Halloween remember!?) But having said that, it goes back to the way all of Gotham (and the fans, through the virals -- I'm really glad we got introduced to Harvey through the virals first) was truly inspired by Dent's coming. He gave them hope, in a way that even the Batman couldn't, and he was able to give hope because the Batman existed in the first place. I think that's why Harvey's so important to Bruce as his own friend first, and an ally along with Gordon. Harvey was everything he ever wished he could be, and I think Rachel understood that as well.

As for her death -- I think the Joker was the one who laid it out well: protecting Rachel was something Bruce was conscious of even when he was thinking about keeping that mask of Batman in Begins, so that there are no repercussions. A large part of Batman's mythos involve him not committing to a relationship or to a "normal life" because as the Batman he simply can't risk that. And, when the Joker saw through all that, it was in a way his greatest fear (besides bats) come alive. And that maniac couldn't stop laughing because he'd struck that core nerve. "LOOK AT YOU GO!"

:dry:

You can't blame Bruce for wanting to have a life out side of being Batman, Being Batman isn't as easier as we've see in the comics prior to Dc's New 52 crap interpretation. Bruce's has had to sacrifice personal attachment in order to keep himself from being vulnerable the problem is that the truth is Bruce does have a heart and Alfred knows it too. And even though Bruce is married to his role being Batman he needs companionship to prevent him from going completely down the path of loner . Ego the need of Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl and Gordon.

[...]

Bane knew that taking Batman head on he'd fail , so he strategical studied him and caused a massive breakout at Arkham Asylum to wear him down and attacked him at his most vulnerable point to beat and break him in his own home.

Exactly. You can't blame Bruce for wanting that normal life, but then again, as the Batman, he cannot commit himself to that. His is not a normal life. Every single relationship he's been entitled to throughout his life -- parents, lovers, friends (i'm talking about both Harvey and Tommy here) have been dismantled and destroyed and simply put... denied from him. In Begins this extends to his mentor figure, so that the only ones truly closest to him are those who are a part of his life-long crusade. That's why Gordon's so important, and why Alfred needs to stay by his side. Honestly, by removing Grayson we're able to appreciate Alfred's role so much more. He has the mission: he can't afford to be normal or humane. Think of the Machiavellian Leader/Prince: he has to suppress his own personal sense of morality and self-redemption for the utilitarian cause; the Greater Good. Granted, Machiavelli explains that self-redemption as religious piety, but we can easily equate that with Bruce's lack of a normal life, or his necessity to break the law. By the time TDK ends, that aspect of normalcy from Bruce Wayne is eradicated completely--he loses his love, his friend, and his life's work--all for the betterment of the city. That's a sacrifice that Batman had to make.

So no. Even if Bane comes back with a vengeance and destroys him, that willingness to put others before him is something he'll never take away. Even if he shatters the "myth" of Harvey Dent.
 
Come on.. Harvey lost his potential wife,half of his face,great career,sanity and his life finally.

Nobody can lose more than that.

Pfft. Let's see what Bruce lost:

His potential Bat-wife, his Bat-face, his great Bat-career, his Batanity, and his Bat-life/leg/limb... oh and lets not forget his Bat-mobile and Lambo.
 
That's why I got a lump in my throat when Gordon said in his speech, "Not the hero we deserved but the one we needed. Nothing less than a knight, shining." Everyone thought he was referring to Harvey but it really referenced Batman. :csad:


Good lord. THIS. :csad:

And the entire GLOOM and sombreness of the TDKR trailers just doesn't promise a whole lot of joy and glee by the time that will wrap up.

"You don't owe this people anymore, you've given them everything..."
 
Pfft. Let's see what Bruce lost:

His potential Bat-wife, his Bat-face, his great Bat-career, his Batanity, and his Bat-life/leg/limb... oh and lets not forget his Bat-mobile and Lambo.

tumblr_ly7vy8LWW01qafsv7o1_500.gif
 
Really? I thought he felt that Batman was the hero Gotham deserved (Gotham deserves the best, Batman was a superior hero to Dent). However, Dent was the one they needed (his reputation to keep the criminals locked away).

A lot of it reminds me of Memento and Insomnia ... Harvey's reputation is important the same reason why Al Pacino's character's reputation is-- so that his entire life's work isn't put away and the hundreds of criminals he's sent behind bars isn't undone. He's entire conflict arises from that guilt of having committed a crime and being unable to repent for it.

On the other hand, we have Alfred burning Rachel's letter and retaining, for Bruce at least, this ideal vision of her being his great lost love, just as in Memento.

And in both cases, the heroes in The Dark Knight are able to go beyond those dilemmas and retain their heroism, if not to others, than at least to themselves.
 
I actually feel worse for Bruce. His whole life sucks. His parents get killed, he sacrifices his life to maintain an ideal and suffers physically for it, has people dying because he wont turn himself in, is in love with his best friend who has moved on, and has destroyed any chance of batman being a positive image...

At least Harvey can be at peace now.

The Dominos Pizza trailer comes to mind. **** was that epic. Next to that, the closest we have for TDKR has to be trailer 3
 
What Harvey lost:
His Girlfriend & Potential wife.
Half of his face.
Career.
Innocence (become killer,quite rightfully after all these)
His life.

What Batman lost:
The girl rejected him and her lover.

What Harvey got:

Harvey Dent Day, stickers and such.

What Bruce got:

No need to be Batman, safe & nice Gotham and going parties with Talia & Catwoman instead friendship of Rachel.

tumblr_ls2i4nVH3R1qbx5l7o2_250.jpg


That's more like it, Mr.Wayne.

Its like you dont pay attention to Bruce Wayne at all during these movies, lol.
 

What Bruce got:

No need to be Batman, safe & nice Gotham and going parties with Talia & Catwoman instead friendship of Rachel.

I can't tell if you're serious or sarcastic. :funny: You do know that it's not as simple as that, right? Not being Batman is part of what drove Bruce into this crazy, depressed state that he's in at the beginning of TDKR. And given the complexities of both Talia and Selina, we know that it's not going to be rainbows and puppies with both. :dry:
 
I'm just joking, I know Bruce had his share but still it's not even close to what Dent lost in TDK.
 
I'm just joking, I know Bruce had his share but still it's not even close to what Dent lost in TDK.

Yeah, not really. In the end this isn't even the point: in the end, Harvey folded and Bruce didn't, despite their similar level of loss presented in the movie. I understand why Dent became Two-Face, the turn and the reasons presented in the movie were believable from my point of view. The flip side is that Dent always had that dark side to him, foreshadowed in the Thomas Schiff interrogation scene that Batman interrupts. That particular sequence is also symbolic in that it contrasts Batman's and Dent's interrogation techniques very nicely.
 
^ That.

And I love how he had to ignore Batman Begins to try and prove his point, lol.
 
^ Maybe he didn't see BB. :p
 
I have seen both movies many times like you did probably.Interesting that we still have different opinions about it.
 
Maybe you guys watched only Batman scenes and skipped rest of the movies :oldrazz:
 
It wasn't malicious in intent. It was naive and irresponsible. Granted there were plenty of other factors that also led to Rachel's death that were somewhat out of his control. As for Wayne intentionally trying to break up Dent and Rachel I think he definitely was. Nolan does a close up of Wayne looking at them holding hands during the dinner and soon after proclaiming to throw him a fundraiser. He was trying to expediently rid Gotham of all its problems through Dent so he wouldn't have to be Batman anymore.

Yeah, though that was also after Harvey gave his speech about someone needing to take up Batman's mantle. The hand-holding just clinched the deal. Bruce had probably had his eye on Dent for a while and when he realized he might lose Rachel to the White Knight he figured he could hand Gotham over to Harvey and kill two birds with one stone.

And... y'know, Harvey's role as the "Apollo" and the "White Knight" really makes me think of him as Superman. I wonder if Goyer will bring any of that initial sense of hope when he's characterising him in the Man of Steel.

I hope so. Harvey managed to be idealistic, kind, vulnerable, charismatic, and badass - not a common combination seen in a lot of modern heroes. It would be great if the new Superman could be like him, sans the dark side.

Well, they didn't really have that many scenes together did they? When they did it always had a third element so that they were barely conversing with themselves. The first scene at the restaurant had Bruce being flippant for the sake of it; their exchange on the balcony was Bruce basically telling her how sincere he was (like during the "not who you are underneath" scene from BB), and the last one before they break apart, Bruce is clearly dejected by what he has to do. I always saw that Bruce wanted for something more to happen but he wasn't getting anything in return -- I don't know if it was intentional or not, and frankly it doesn't mater to me as a viewer what the intended effect was, but their lack of spark translated well into the story they were telling.

I got the vibe that Rachel felt she had an obligation to Bruce because she told him they would be together after he gave up Batman, but she hadn't anticipated falling in love with Harvey. Her "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life" felt like a subtle attempt to tell Bruce to move on with his life, but he didn't get it or refused to accept it.
 
There really should be a commentary for each film with at least one of the 3 amigos describing each scene. I always love those.
 
Nevermind, I am terrible at embedding videos.
 
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I got the vibe that Rachel felt she had an obligation to Bruce because she told him they would be together after he gave up Batman, but she hadn't anticipated falling in love with Harvey. Her "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life" felt like a subtle attempt to tell Bruce to move on with his life, but he didn't get it or refused to accept it.

That's a very good analysis. I don't know if that was intentional but I got that same feeling. I'm sure Rachel loved Bruce but like what you said she probably felt some sort of obligation to keep her promise to Bruce knowing that he is holding on to that hope (hence her hesitancy to answer Harvey's proposal right away) and she didn't think back then that she will fall for Harvey. IMO Bruce loved her more than she ever loved him. I think those 8 years of grieving over her is proof of that.


Anyone else glad Rachel is dead?

I was for several reasons. First, I never connected with her. The change in actress never helped too. Second, I hated how she had a completely personality change from BB to TDK (Nolan's fault). Third, her death means the opportunity for another (hopefully better) female character to come in.
 
Pfft. Let's see what Bruce lost:

His potential Bat-wife, his Bat-face, his great Bat-career, his Batanity, and his Bat-life/leg/limb... oh and lets not forget his Bat-mobile and Lambo.
Yeah, but he was already willing and able to give those things up before Harvey even turned. The only thing he truly lost was Rachel.

For Harvey, everything was unexpected.
 
I don't know what to think about the conclusion of Bruce's story. The way Oldman said that Nolan brings it back to BB... Maybe he'll sacrifice himself in order to save "his" city? That'd make him the true hero.


(Ps: I hope that TDKR will make us leave the cinema quietly)
 
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