The Dark Knight Rises Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 1

[MrWayne]

Look, the Conroy fans (me being one of them) always fail to admit one thing when making these comparisons.

Firstly, lets be honest, just about anyone who praises Conroy as the "definitive and best bat voice - EVER" most likely feel so for the main reason that THEY GREW UP with BTAS. So it has a very near and dear place in our hearts & lives. It's from our childhood, so we will have always have a passion & love for Conroy/BTAS! But thats usually where their adamant love comes from, and it really is a weak argument to use to say, "well, BTAS is what I grew up with and am used to, so that's what I want". We all know most of the time we want our cartoon and comic hero counterparts so perfectly adapted into live action formats. Which is why you'll never really hear anyone admit that in these arguments.

Secondly, Conroy is pretty much the only consistent bat voice we've had for so many years where Conroy owns the voice at this point. We almost cant picture any animated medium of Batman if Conroy isn't voicing it. We have been so programmed and conditioned to feel this way after so many years of being exposed to Conroy as the batman voice persona. I'm included into this demographic because in all honesty Conroy does do a great voice, but also, he's all I'm used to really. It works, and I prefer him being used in animated mediums due to my preference and conditioning as I just pointed out.

Bale voicing Batman in live action is way different as there is a wider range of actions and emotions going on in these films that weren't present in TAS. Conroys batman wasn't faced with the emotional roller coasters as batman from Nolans movie series has been. Bales batman is going through some real psychological stuff. Then with the layer of reality added to Nolans films, I interpret Bales voicing as a man who is just trying to disguise his voice with a growl and isn't conscience of it always sounding in the same tone and pitch since A, he's still fairly new as batman in this universe and B, is mentally distracted by the all the scenarios and predicaments placed in front of him to be so mindful of "oh let me do my growl like this". In my opinion, in reality, any one of us wouldn't have a better bat voice that was always consistently sounding the same unless we had been doing it for years on end where we have mastered it as a split personality of ours all together.

Conroy's batman voice wasn't that far different from his Bruce voice, which is silly since the batman of BTAS was already a vet and had been well established as batman for many years in that universe, but of course we are talking about a cartoon... so yea. Hopefully some see the points I'm trying to make.

Bales bat voice makes perfect sense for the universe he's working out of.

Yes we may not like it at some parts, but try to do your own bat voice. Now try to do a bat voice were your sounding angry and your yelling. LOL How do you sound?? See what I mean?

 

[jacobed]

I grew up with Conroy and loved him but lately i really have started to love Bruce Greenwood. He is fantastic. Back to live action. I have loved how Bale has played Batman. There are few in the business that can portray a performance with just his eyes and its easy to see why Nolan hired him.

 

[Batman jr.]

I grew up with Conroy and loved him but lately i really have started to love Bruce Greenwood. He is fantastic. Back to live action. I have loved how Bale has played Batman. There are few in the business that can portray a performance with just his eyes and its easy to see why Nolan hired him.

Bale has become one of my favorite actors, and I'd love to see him do comedy.

 

[JackWhite]

Bale has become one of my favorite actors, and I'd love to see him do comedy.

A dark comedy, in the style of American Psycho; oh hell yes!

Hell, I think Bale would do great in a Wes Anderson film.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

A dark comedy, in the style of American Psycho; oh hell yes!

Hell, I think Bale would do great in a Wes Anderson film.

American Psycho... I don't know how or why but i said to myself that guy should play Batman when first time i saw the movie. Years later when they choosed him i knew he's gonna be great Wayne & Batman. Bale has no limits.

 

[Aaron O.]

In BB I figured the voice was different from scene to scene because it was still a work in progress. Also I assumed that they voice he'd use with Gordon, Rachael and friends would be less harsh than the voice he'd use talking to criminals.

In TDK I didn't have an issue with the voice either. I thought he's delivery with the Joker was on account of him just taking out a swat team 3-4 Rottweilers, and getting stabbed and beaten over and over by the Joker. He was tired! So he has to maintain composure, catch his breath and use the voice on Joker.

My real complaint is his lips. Though in my head I've decided Bruce pushes his lips out to disguise the way he speaks as to not use the same manurisms as Bruce that he uses for Batman.

 

[Carnotaur3]

The complaints about the voice is just ridiculous because at the end of the day, it's not about the voice when it comes to Bale's performance, it's about how real and invested he was as Batman. Voices aren't consistent because people aren't consistently at one emotion. It's called range. You hear Bale's lisp, his exhaustion, his stress when he pulls Joker up at the end of TDK. It's not a perfect moment, it's a real moment. Performances like that aren't made to be perfect, they're made to be believable and vulnerable. That's what actors aspire to do. To find the truth of the scene.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

The complaints about the voice is just ridiculous because at the end of the day, it's not about the voice when it comes to Bale's performance, it's about how real and invested he was as Batman. Voices aren't consistent because people aren't consistently at one emotion. It's called range. You hear Bale's lisp, his exhaustion, his stress when he pulls Joker up at the end of TDK. It's not a perfect moment, it's a real moment. Performances like that aren't made to be perfect, they're made to be believable and vulnerable. That's what actors aspire to do. To find the truth of the scene.

Nicely put, sir.

 

[The Guard]

To me the inconsistency is the only thing that's been consistent from early on. It was always changing in Begins.

From "I'm Batman", to "Rattle the cages" to "Storm's coming", to "SWEAR TO ME!", to "I brought mine!" to "It's not who I am underneath"....every delivery seems to have a different approach to the voice. There are many shades of Bat-growl to be found in that movie.

I actually found TDK to be more consistent, it's just that that overblown, post-enhanced growl was one a major constant.

It changed in the sense that he was either speaking in a normal volume, whispering or yelling. His voice had different levels, but the sound, his approach to the Batvoice itself was consistent. It was gravely, dark and rasping.

I have no idea why people talk about him “growling” in TDK. For the most part, he didn’t. He essentially lost the growl component of the voice entirely and relied on whispering and rasping.

The TDK voice is just rasping and is, even with modulation, all over the place tonally, in a way the Begins voice simply wasn't. The TDK voice varies not because he's altering the volume of his voice, IE whispering, yelling, etc, but just because it changes from scene to scene.

Overall, it became more of a whisper, but even his whispering sequences sounded different from each other.

And making a whisper go all over the place is no small feat.

I can buy that rational, I just don't get some of the abject HATE for it; I will admit, Keaton's "I'm Batman" is better, but did he do THAT many better line readings in the Batman voice.

Yes. He kind of did.

Becuase Keaton nailed the emotion of whatever he was saying in the voice, and it rarely sounded silly.

When Keaton wanted to sound angry, he sounded angry, not goofy.

When Keaton wanted to sound sarcastic, he sounded sarcastic, not like he was bored with the situation.

Keaton understood that less is sometimes (not all the time) more. Bale doesn’t seem to...as Batman, which is odd, because subtley is pretty much his bread and butter.

Bale voicing Batman in live action is way different as there is a wider range of actions and emotions going on in these films that weren't present in TAS. Conroys batman wasn't faced with the emotional roller coasters as batman from Nolans movie series has been. Bales batman is going through some real psychological stuff.

I feel like you haven’t seen TAS in a while. Conroy's role required every bit as much range of emotion as Bale's has. Arguably, and probably, more.

The complaints about the voice is just ridiculous because at the end of the day, it's not about the voice when it comes to Bale's performance, it's about how real and invested he was as Batman.

Except that it IS about the voice, because that's part of how real he was, and how his performance comes across.

The quality of his investment in the character from film to film is also somewhat debatable.

For instance, compared to his performance as Batman in BEGINS, Bale's presence as Batman in TDK almost feels like he’s mailing it in.

You hear Bale's lisp, his exhaustion, his stress when he pulls Joker up at the end of TDK. It's not a perfect moment, it's a real moment. Performances like that aren't made to be perfect, they're made to be believable and vulnerable. That's what actors aspire to do. To find the truth of the scene.

It’s a real moment…except that Batman has time to come up with some cleverly written dialogue? And then can't deliver it without said dialogue sounding like just that? Dialogue.

Also, shouldn’t exhaustion sound like exhaustion? Bale's take on exhaustion is "I'm literally going to fall asleep now".

 

[The Batman]

Damn. This thread was going so well. A nice conversation on the nature of Nolan's Bruce Wayne.

Now its become a dick measuring contest between Bat Voices.

Now its basically like the other threads.

 

[Nevincer]

Damn. This thread was going so well. A nice conversation on the nature of Nolan's Bruce Wayne.

Now its become a dick measuring contest between Bat Voices.

Now its basically like the other threads.

 

[kvz5]

The Batman speaks the truth.

Anyways, back to Nolan and Bale's Bruce/Batman -

In TDK, Bruce was willing to give up being Batman but when "peace time" happened during those 8 years and Batman wasn't needed anymore, we saw Bruce in a downward spiral. What brought that about? Was it just fueled by the fact that he can't have this normal life with Rachel being dead or this realization that he doesn't know how to function if he doesn't have Batman in his life?

 

[AnneFan]

In TDK, Bruce was willing to give up being Batman but when "peace time" happened during those 8 years and Batman wasn't needed anymore, we saw Bruce in a downward spiral. What brought that about? Was it just fueled by the fact that he can't have this normal life with Rachel being dead or this realization that he doesn't know how to function if he doesn't have Batman in his life?

Good question. I think his downward spiral is how it came about. He took on the tag of a wanted murderer, but there's no doubt that would get you down. And also the death of Rachel playing on his mind, believing she was going to wait for him. Bruce's retirement in that time does show, however, that he is able to step aside if he deems there to be a balance of peace.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

When people fired or forced to retire from the jobs,titles they love.. they struggle big time.Politicans,athlete, most of them don't know what to do even with money and fame once they are out of the game.They start having addictions to gaining fat, doing crazy things to weird behaviours...

Bruce Wayne isn't someone will be satisfied with philanthropy. At least it would take time to get back on ordinary life. That's why he is doing crazy stuff and not in good shape. He can't be Batman but he can't let it go as well.

 

[Batman jr.]

Damn. This thread was going so well. A nice conversation on the nature of Nolan's Bruce Wayne.

Now its become a dick measuring contest between Bat Voices.

Now its basically like the other threads.

You don't owe this people anymore. You have given everything.

 

[Batman jr.]

American Psycho... I don't know how or why but i said to myself that guy should play Batman when first time i saw the movie. Years later when they choosed him i knew he's gonna be great Wayne & Batman. Bale has no limits.

 

[CapedCrusader14]

After watching TDK again today I have an even greater appreciation for Bale's performance in it. Can't wait to see how he finishes it off.

 

[The Batman]

The Batman speaks the truth.

I knew you guys would feel me on this. Also, nice job bringing this thread back to sanity.

You don't owe this people anymore. You have given everything.

Not everything, son...not yet.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Yeah, not really. In the end this isn't even the point: in the end, Harvey folded and Bruce didn't, despite their similar level of loss presented in the movie. I understand why Dent became Two-Face, the turn and the reasons presented in the movie were believable from my point of view. The flip side is that Dent always had that dark side to him, foreshadowed in the Thomas Schiff interrogation scene that Batman interrupts. That particular sequence is also symbolic in that it contrasts Batman's and Dent's interrogation techniques very nicely.

SWEAR TO ME!

I agree.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I got the vibe that Rachel felt she had an obligation to Bruce because she told him they would be together after he gave up Batman, but she hadn't anticipated falling in love with Harvey. Her "Don't make me your one hope for a normal life" felt like a subtle attempt to tell Bruce to move on with his life, but he didn't get it or refused to accept it.

Agree completely -- thought it wasn't like she committed to anything. I like that sense of loss between the two at the beginning of TDK. Alfred keeps trying to push the conversation to Rachel, but Bruce says how "it isn't any of his business."

On some level I guess it was important for Bruce to think that one day he could really be done with being Batman and go back to the life and person he always thought he'd be -- with Rachel, a figure from his past, right there with him. It'd be a sense of closure that he hoped for. THat didn't happen. And yes, she wasn't exactly all that supportive of the Batman mantle once she understood that inside it's still Bruce struggling to get rid of the pain in some other capacity.

Yes...since it opens the door for Talia and Selina to appear in TDKR.

That... and then some. If we don't go around to TDKR yet, even in the context of TDK the way she died is made very significant -- he did drop everything to try and save her rather than Dent, and the Joker knew he'd do that. It was the Joker's last big laugh at ol' Bats. That "normal life" is made impossible. given the fact that it was his greatest fear, one of the initial reasons behind his constructing a masked persona ("to protect those you love from repercussions"), just adds to the dilemma that Bruce has to deal with by being Batman -- he can't risk that happening ever again.

I think Bruce knew that even before her death, that's why he accepted it wholeheartedly when she said they'd be together when Gotham no longer needed Batman.

The end to TDK was that. But by then, Rachel was dead.

IMO Bruce loved her more than she ever loved him. I think those 8 years of grieving over her is proof of that. [...]

I was for several reasons. First, I never connected with her. The change in actress never helped too. Second, I hated how she had a completely personality change from BB to TDK (Nolan's fault). Third, her death means the opportunity for another (hopefully better) female character to come in.

I think the first bit is pretty blatant, yes -- she never truly understood why Bruce was doing the things he was doing. As for the "personality change" I see it as character progress. I'm sure that they were thinking, when they were approaching her character, "what happens next? How do you respond to knowing that the man you loved is a secret vigilante at night, on a one-man crusade to rid a city of criminals?" The answer is you sever ties with him. And Rachel's tone of disdain towards Bruce kinda gives it away in that regard.

I liked how they did tackle a character who was essential to Bruce's childhood, and was still around by the time he donned the mask and returned to Gotham, as well as the fact that they made Batman a love-interest who was, essentially, a fighter for the people on her own right. Vicky Vale and Chase Meridean were great, but they always had that obsession for Batman that just didn't mesh well. Rachel was a fresh take, and unlike Andrea or Selina, wasn't the "perfect" psychopathic match either.

I always assumed she'd pull a "Gilda Dent" just because of her profession by the time TDK hit. Thank god they didn't go that route.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

The complaints about the voice is just ridiculous because at the end of the day, it's not about the voice when it comes to Bale's performance, it's about how real and invested he was as Batman. Voices aren't consistent because people aren't consistently at one emotion. It's called range. You hear Bale's lisp, his exhaustion, his stress when he pulls Joker up at the end of TDK. It's not a perfect moment, it's a real moment. Performances like that aren't made to be perfect, they're made to be believable and vulnerable. That's what actors aspire to do. To find the truth of the scene.

I don't think people understands this enough. I love the fact that you pointed out the subtle differences in Bat-Voice. And I don't care if they were made consciously or not -- that's just a much better way to appreciate Bale-Bats!

To me, by the time TDK ended and the first shots of a masked-Batman came out for TDKR, it was as if Nolan's Batman was a character on its own right. You stopped seeing Christian Bale under there, just as you stop seeing actors like Gary Oldman or Russell Crowe in the roles that they play out in each film. Or even Johnny Depp and Heath Ledger's Joker. That's saying a lot about both the writing as well as the acting. With Batman Begins it was still "okay young Bruce Wayne as rookie Batman" but with TDK it was Batman realised in every way possible. What he did at the end of TDK, sacrificing his own reputation for Harvey, that's something you can easily imagine in the comics or JLU.

 

[The Joker]

After watching TDK again today I have an even greater appreciation for Bale's performance in it. Can't wait to see how he finishes it off.

He was awesome in it

 

[Carnotaur3]

I don't think people understands this enough. I love the fact that you pointed out the subtle differences in Bat-Voice. And I don't care if they were made consciously or not -- that's just a much better way to appreciate Bale-Bats!

There's a lot of misconceptions about what acting is. Many people think actors just say lines. That's not true in any sense. Actors are reactors. They react to what they are given by the other person. That's how we interact in real life. Our responses are determined by the one opposite to us. Actors are meant to live in the moment and being in the moment means to be somewhat unconscious of what you're doing because reacting is a subconscious thing in and of itself.

 

[Fullmetal]

I'm very much looking forward to seeing Bruce full growth in TDKR. It's hard to believe he was the little boy back then...

He's really turned into a living a legend. Full rage, pain but resolve to do what's right for Gotham. Facing Bane is going to be his toughest challenge, he may get defeated the first against him but I know he'll come back stronger once he returns to defeat Bane once and for all with all his might and anger. Thus proving his resolve to save the city in the name of Parents that tried but failed. But he won't, hes gonna show Bane the determination that fueled him to never give up and conquer his pain and despair making him the dark knight rises.

t: Such brilliant protagonist development.

 

[Yawsbass]

Good question. I think his downward spiral is how it came about. He took on the tag of a wanted murderer, but there's no doubt that would get you down. And also the death of Rachel playing on his mind, believing she was going to wait for him. Bruce's retirement in that time does show, however, that he is able to step aside if he deems there to be a balance of peace.

When people fired or forced to retire from the jobs,titles they love.. they struggle big time.Politicans,athlete, most of them don't know what to do even with money and fame once they are out of the game.They start having addictions to gaining fat, doing crazy things to weird behaviours...

Bruce Wayne isn't someone will be satisfied with philanthropy. At least it would take time to get back on ordinary life. That's why he is doing crazy stuff and not in good shape. He can't be Batman but he can't let it go as well.

I think those views cover it pretty well. Earlier in the movie, he was going to give it up willingly and thought that he had a peaceful, happy life ahead of him. Rachel had it right all along, however, as evidenced when she tells him that they'll never let them be together when he turns himself in. (The fact that she was stringing him along and how reprehensible that is is a discussion for another day)

At the end of The Dark Knight, though, Bruce has lost Rachel, seen what the Joker has done to Dent, and witnessed his downfall. Sure, he took it upon himself to take the blame for everything Harvey did, but it was almost forced upon him. With Rachel and Harvey gone, he has nothing to look forward to in able to live a normal life. Those traumas probably took a lot out of him emotionally, and where he was more than willing to give up the persona just days before, now he realizes that the Batman, in some capacity, is needed by both the city and himself.