The Dark Knight Rises Eckhart on Dent returning: "I could not possibly say."

He's dead the only way he's coming back is a damn commercial featuring Harvey Dent!
Who here wants to bet against me? I'm serious.

Commercial of Harvey Dent:

005TYS_Aaron_Eckhart_001.jpg


"Hello citizens of Gotham, I'm Harvey Dent. I have a vision for the future. I believe Gotham deserves to be prosper. To be ridden of crime and protected by it's people. By it's own good spirit and dedication. Which is why I intend to save this city. I believe in Gotham's people. It's time you did too"

New young lawyer: "We at the Dent firm believed in Harvey Dent. He dedicated his life to this city, we're ready to do the same. We believe in YOU!"

Paid for by the People for Harvey Dent foundation.
 
Exactly. Where does Two-Face go from that point in TDK if he had survived. It wouldn't make much sense for the character to become a villain. He went after the people that ****ed him up in TDK. After that theres nothing left

I agree that Two-Face, as written in TDK, didn't really have much room to go anywhere else.

However, I also think that's the biggest flaw of TDK. I will always be incredibly disappointed in how they handled his character.

And as such, I DON'T want Two-Face to be revealed to be alive again, because of how his character was in TDK. He doesn't belong in a sequel as anything other then a hallucination during fear gas/dreams as Bruce recovers from Bane.
 
There was not enough time for him in TDK to prove that he wasn't or wouldn't become the comics 2Face. Heck, he was the TLH 2Face and that one progressed quite fittingly to the classic 2Face in DV.
 
There was not enough time for him in TDK to prove that he wasn't or wouldn't become the comics 2Face. Heck, he was the TLH 2Face and that one progressed quite fittingly to the classic 2Face in DV.

Not really. TLH Two-Face honestly did a much better job of showing his slow decline in madness, and gave a more realistic transition and break into it. It also foreshadowed his mental issues much better.

TDK's Two-Face seemed to be largely Harvey out for revenge. He did retain the obsession with fate, and I'm glad they got that aspect right, but his psychosis was not nearly to the extent displayed in TLH.

And it's too bad really. I would have loved to see Nolan's take on an extreme personality disorder such as Two-Faces. Unfortunately, that aspect was largely ignored.
 
Yes, but I don't really see why he couldn't have become the comics 2Face, that's what I'm saying. He was Harvey out for revenge at first, but he slowly turned into a 1st class psycho.

His descent is another matter and for the 2,5 hours at Nolan's disposal, I was more than happy with what we got in TDK.
 
Yes, but I don't really see why he couldn't have become the comics 2Face, that's what I'm saying. He was Harvey out for revenge at first, but he slowly turned into a 1st class psycho.

His descent is another matter and for the 2,5 hours at Nolan's disposal, I was more than happy with what we got in TDK.

I was happy with what we got in the time we got as well. What I wasn't really happy with was that he was mostly just Dent out for revenge, and that they didn't even try to attempt his split personality. Of course, I don't think that should have been handled in TDK, there was no room, which is why I was very disappointed they killed his character off. What we got was good, but there was SO much more potential that I'll always look at it as a bit of a waste.

I suppose you could try and show a gradual decline into even deeper madness with TDK's Two-Face, but it would take some very good storytelling to make it not seem contrived.

Really, it would be easier to bring Ra's back then Harvey, because while Nolan didn't outright say the guy was dead, he pretty much implied it as heavily as he could without showing us a tombstone. You could always go with the "Ra's jumped" theory. Sure, it's not too realistic, but then again, neither was the fact that Harvey was alive with a burn that severe, not to mention the fact that he could move his jaw even though the muscles in his face required to do so were either gone or too severely damaged to work properly.
 
That they didn't even try to attempt his split personality.

Yes they did. Yes, they most certainly did.
Watch Eckhart's performance and note the subtle shifts in both expression and voice.

I'll put it as plainly as I can:

HARVEY DENT
Shouting, angry, bitter, mourning for Rachel. Still capable of some humanity, notice he saves the boy for last. Subconciously trying to give the kid better odds. The Dent personality is human, misguided rage.

TWO-FACE
Dead-eyed. Lazy and slurred speech. Weary movements. Almost zombie-like and utterly slavish in his devotion to the coin - Notice how Eckhart delivers the line "Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair." Two-Face is the cold and cruel personality that puts Dent's anger to good use.

The reason I love Eckhart's performance so much is because they don't hit you over the head with the split personality business. You see it for yourself, the man is a damn lunatic. He goes from an inpassioned monologue about personal loss to an emotionless sermon on the benefits of luck.

Nolan and company correctly realised that Harvey Dent works best when he's not shown as a good, flawless man driven to villainy because of a random violent act. His motives and Two-Face's motives are the same. Become powerful, eliminate the 'scum', overcome his ****** childhood. One of them is full of impotent rage at an unfair world, the other is able to convert that rage into action.

Two-Face shot those people, but Harvey was the one who enjoyed doing it.
 
By my count, Gordon still didn't pay a price for his involvement in Rachel's death, so Harvey certainly still has motivation. That being said, I don't think he's coming back.
 
By my count, Gordon still didn't pay a price for his involvement in Rachel's death, so Harvey certainly still has motivation. That being said, I don't think he's coming back.

In my eyes, hiding Harvey's fall and dealing with the subsequent consequences of having to hunt the only man he really trusts is Gordon's punishment. I hope/think we're going to see him pushed to the brink in Rises, completely stressed by his more demanding job, and perhaps, as suggested in the official Gordon thread, facing family issues. His penance (so to speak), while not directly initiated by Harvey, would still be Dent related, and I believe that his arc in Rises will cover it.

The same can be said about Bats. I find it interesting that in death, Dent is actually punishing both Bats and Gordon for wronging him. By choosing to take the fall/cover up the ordeal, Bats and Gordon are locked into an issue that will surely test, and perhaps nearly break both of them. In the end, Dent does sort of get his revenge after all (his death is what prompts Bats and Gordon to embark upon troubled roads ahead), even if it's not exactly how he envisioned it. Anyhow, that's just my take. :)
 
Yes they did. Yes, they most certainly did.
Watch Eckhart's performance and note the subtle shifts in both expression and voice.

I'll put it as plainly as I can:

HARVEY DENT
Shouting, angry, bitter, mourning for Rachel. Still capable of some humanity, notice he saves the boy for last. Subconciously trying to give the kid better odds. The Dent personality is human, misguided rage.

TWO-FACE
Dead-eyed. Lazy and slurred speech. Weary movements. Almost zombie-like and utterly slavish in his devotion to the coin - Notice how Eckhart delivers the line "Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair." Two-Face is the cold and cruel personality that puts Dent's anger to good use.

Funnily enough, I came to the opposite conclusion - that Two-Face was the coarse, angry one ("SHUT UP!"), and Dent was the dead-eyed, weary one, who submitted to his fate with resignation (and was saddened when the coin flip spared his own life).
 
Yes they did. Yes, they most certainly did.
Watch Eckhart's performance and note the subtle shifts in both expression and voice.

I'll put it as plainly as I can:

HARVEY DENT
Shouting, angry, bitter, mourning for Rachel. Still capable of some humanity, notice he saves the boy for last. Subconciously trying to give the kid better odds. The Dent personality is human, misguided rage.

TWO-FACE
Dead-eyed. Lazy and slurred speech. Weary movements. Almost zombie-like and utterly slavish in his devotion to the coin - Notice how Eckhart delivers the line "Unbiased. Unprejudiced. Fair." Two-Face is the cold and cruel personality that puts Dent's anger to good use.

The reason I love Eckhart's performance so much is because they don't hit you over the head with the split personality business. You see it for yourself, the man is a damn lunatic. He goes from an inpassioned monologue about personal loss to an emotionless sermon on the benefits of luck.

Nolan and company correctly realised that Harvey Dent works best when he's not shown as a good, flawless man driven to villainy because of a random violent act. His motives and Two-Face's motives are the same. Become powerful, eliminate the 'scum', overcome his ****** childhood. One of them is full of impotent rage at an unfair world, the other is able to convert that rage into action.

Two-Face shot those people, but Harvey was the one who enjoyed doing it.

I'm sorry, but I'm talking about seeing a man with an extreme split personality disorder. To the point where his psyche is completely split. We saw a disturbed individual, but it was still very much Harvey, just a darker side of him.

In the comics, Harvey Dent is so torn by his dual natures that his psyche literally splits in half. We did not have that in this film. We saw a disturbed man, not a man who's mind was completley ravaged like in the comics.
 
hes not coming back.if hes in it at all itll be flashbacks or whatever.
 
I'm sorry, but I'm talking about seeing a man with an extreme split personality disorder. To the point where his psyche is completely split. We saw a disturbed individual, but it was still very much Harvey, just a darker side of him.

In the comics, Harvey Dent is so torn by his dual natures that his psyche literally splits in half. We did not have that in this film. We saw a disturbed man, not a man who's mind was completley ravaged like in the comics.

The biggest mistake I believe Nolan could have made with Two-Face is to go to the extremes that you wanted to see. The whole point of Dent in TDK was to show him as the light for Gotham, if you were to dabble in the split personality thing the tragic downfall is diminished because the seeds of him turning bad are planted for all to see. I look at a character like Gollum from LOTR, he's a tragic character but his ultimate demise isn't emotionally effective because you know he's going to turn. There's subtlety in TDK Dent character that hints at someone who isn't all he seems but manages to suppress it, like most of Nolan's work it isn't melodramatic. Overall he's seen in the good light to us the audience because he has to in order for us to get emotionally attached to him - it sucks when he loses Rachel, it sucks when he gets scarred, it sucks when he dies. Ultimately, I believe it's all just semantics, regardless of how close to the comics it is the concepts is exactly the same.
 
The biggest mistake I believe Nolan could have made with Two-Face is to go to the extremes that you wanted to see. The whole point of Dent in TDK was to show him as the light for Gotham, if you were to dabble in the split personality thing the tragic downfall is diminished because the seeds of him turning bad are planted for all to see. I look at a character like Gollum from LOTR, he's a tragic character but his ultimate demise isn't emotionally effective because you know he's going to turn. There's subtlety in TDK Dent character that hints at someone who isn't all he seems but manages to suppress it, like most of Nolan's work it isn't melodramatic. Overall he's seen in the good light to us the audience because he has to in order for us to get emotionally attached to him - it sucks when he loses Rachel, it sucks when he gets scarred, it sucks when he dies. Ultimately, I believe it's all just semantics, regardless of how close to the comics it is the concepts is exactly the same.

I disagree completley.

But, to be clear, I want you to understand that I'm not suggesting we get a Gollum-like Two-Face in which he's arguing with himself. I would have been exciting because we would have seen Nolan's approach on a man with an extreme mental disorder. Maybe Dent doesn't remember what happens when Two-Face takes over, or maybe it goes through degrees, where at one level we see him like he was in TDK, and when it get's worse his psychosis deepens.

Who knows? The problem is, Nolan didn't explore it. But what bothers me even more, is that Nolan killed off a character SO rich in potential.

Two-Face is more then just the hokey, "I'm going to rob the SECOND national bank on February SECOND, at TWO am." He's a living embodiment of one of the oldest themes in fiction. The duality of humans.

We can all relate to the innate fear humans have of our darker sides. This is the reason why stories like Jekyll and Hyde have endured for so long. Harvey Dent is the embodiment of that fear. The living, walking, breathing worst example of what could happen if we don't find a way to balance the dark and light nature of ourselves.

Because of what happened to him, Dent is obsessed with fate, but he's also obsessed with the light and dark sides in everything, and this is what he tries to exploit. He's unique in his approach because, unlike people like the Joker, he doesn't want to obliterate the good in people, he wants to exploit both the light and the dark, and set them on a path to destroy each other, just like it destroyed him.

He also would have fit himself in perfectly with how the next movie is shaping up---thematically speaking. We're dealing with a Batman on the run, pushed to his limits, someone who's probably going to be struggling with his dual nature even more. You then have the character of Catwoman, representing the allure of the darker side, the excitement and disregard for rules. You have Gordon, representing the light, an example to Bruce of how a man can lead a normal life, live by the law, and be happy. And then you have Dent, a living example of what happens when you can't balance both those sides of you.

We wouldn't have been able to get all that in the last film, but had they saved Two-Face for the third, we could have. And it's why I'm never going to be satisfied with the abridged version of the character we got.

As a film fan, I understand why Nolan did what he did. It fit thematically, it was powerful, it concluded nicely, but as a comic fan, I'll never be happy with how Two-Face went out.
 
If he didn't die, then the entire point of what made batman heoric at the end is null and void. No thanks.

Not if Batman believed he was dead. :doh: Whatsa matter wit you?

When I saw the film, I didnt realize Two-Face was "dead"... I thought he was lying there unconscious. Batman's speech about Gotham "never knowing" what he did doesnt mean he was dead. Maybe they lock him away in Arkham and people dont know he's alive. The "funeral" couldve been a hoax on the public.
 
Not if Batman believed he was dead. :doh: Whatsa matter wit you?

When I saw the film, I didnt realize Two-Face was "dead"... I thought he was lying there unconscious. Batman's speech about Gotham "never knowing" what he did doesnt mean he was dead. Maybe they lock him away in Arkham and people dont know he's alive. The "funeral" couldve been a hoax on the public.

I do think it would have made for a very interesting story had Gordon and Batman both decided to lock Harvey up, secretly, for the benefit of Gotham, and let Batman go on taking the fall for the crimes, all the while trying to rehabilitate him in lockup.

It would have added a very nice moral ambiguity to the thing. But I really, really, REALLY doubt it would happen. In fact, I'd be prepared to bet that if Two-Face is in the film at all, it won't be him actually being alive.

I've always been intrigued by the idea though.
 
I disagree completley.

But, to be clear, I want you to understand that I'm not suggesting we get a Gollum-like Two-Face in which he's arguing with himself. I would have been exciting because we would have seen Nolan's approach on a man with an extreme mental disorder. Maybe Dent doesn't remember what happens when Two-Face takes over, or maybe it goes through degrees, where at one level we see him like he was in TDK, and when it get's worse his psychosis deepens.

Who knows? The problem is, Nolan didn't explore it. But what bothers me even more, is that Nolan killed off a character SO rich in potential.

Two-Face is more then just the hokey, "I'm going to rob the SECOND national bank on February SECOND, at TWO am." He's a living embodiment of one of the oldest themes in fiction. The duality of humans.

We can all relate to the innate fear humans have of our darker sides. This is the reason why stories like Jekyll and Hyde have endured for so long. Harvey Dent is the embodiment of that fear. The living, walking, breathing worst example of what could happen if we don't find a way to balance the dark and light nature of ourselves.

Because of what happened to him, Dent is obsessed with fate, but he's also obsessed with the light and dark sides in everything, and this is what he tries to exploit. He's unique in his approach because, unlike people like the Joker, he doesn't want to obliterate the good in people, he wants to exploit both the light and the dark, and set them on a path to destroy each other, just like it destroyed him.

He also would have fit himself in perfectly with how the next movie is shaping up---thematically speaking. We're dealing with a Batman on the run, pushed to his limits, someone who's probably going to be struggling with his dual nature even more. You then have the character of Catwoman, representing the allure of the darker side, the excitement and disregard for rules. You have Gordon, representing the light, an example to Bruce of how a man can lead a normal life, live by the law, and be happy. And then you have Dent, a living example of what happens when you can't balance both those sides of you.

We wouldn't have been able to get all that in the last film, but had they saved Two-Face for the third, we could have. And it's why I'm never going to be satisfied with the abridged version of the character we got.

As a film fan, I understand why Nolan did what he did. It fit thematically, it was powerful, it concluded nicely, but as a comic fan, I'll never be happy with how Two-Face went out.

Look at it this way, you would have had to have changed the film significantly in order to have gotten the Two-Face that you wanted, TDK wouldn't be TDK if your version of Two-Face was included. Abridge or not, the character was done justice too more so than an other live action interpretation.
 
Look at it this way, you would have had to have changed the film significantly in order to have gotten the Two-Face that you wanted, TDK wouldn't be TDK if your version of Two-Face was included. Abridge or not, the character was done justice too more so than an other live action interpretation.

Well, TDK would remain largely the same, I would have either cut out the Two-Face subplot at the end, and end the film with Two-Face walking into the bar and saying "half..."

Or I would have kept it similar, but instead of Two-Face being dead, have Bats and Gordon agree to lock Harvey up, secretly, and try to rehabilitate him while letting Bats take the fall for what Harvey did. And then go into how Harvey continues to deteriorate in lockup, eventually escaping..

but really, you are right in that we'd have to change something about TDK. And again, to make clear, I do agree with you. The Two-Face we got is MUCH, MUCH, better then what we saw in BF. However, it's hard to be much worse. But I do want everyone to understand that I don't really dislike what they did in TDK. There will just always be a twinge of disappointment for me. But the film geek in me loves what they did. The comic nerd in me enjoyed it, but was disappointed.
 
Just gotta separate the mediums. As long as the characters retain the spirit of their comic counterparts I've got no problem, unless it's some abomination like Catwoman where the film is completely disrespectful to the source material.
 
Just gotta separate the mediums. As long as the characters retain the spirit of their comic counterparts I've got no problem, unless it's some abomination like Catwoman where the film is completely disrespectful to the source material.

Yeah, and that's why I'm never going to really be mad at how they handled the character. They still made a great film. But I do hope sometime down the road we could get a film where we get to see Two-Face explored a bit more. We really don't need to see Harvey again, because he was already done perfectly, but I'd love to see more Two-Face.

Either way, getting back to the subject at hand, I sincerely doubt that if Two-Face is in this movie, that he'll be anything more then a shade in a hallucination or dream sequence/flashback. The way they ended TDK, bringing him back without it seeming incredibly contrived would be very hard.

Not to mention, I wouldn't want him in the movie since we already have Bane and Catwoman. That's too many heavy hitters to balance in one movie. Someone would suffer.
 
Well, TDK would remain largely the same, I would have either cut out the Two-Face subplot at the end, and end the film with Two-Face walking into the bar and saying "half..."

Or I would have kept it similar, but instead of Two-Face being dead, have Bats and Gordon agree to lock Harvey up, secretly, and try to rehabilitate him while letting Bats take the fall for what Harvey did. And then go into how Harvey continues to deteriorate in lockup, eventually escaping..

but really, you are right in that we'd have to change something about TDK. And again, to make clear, I do agree with you. The Two-Face we got is MUCH, MUCH, better then what we saw in BF. However, it's hard to be much worse. But I do want everyone to understand that I don't really dislike what they did in TDK. There will just always be a twinge of disappointment for me. But the film geek in me loves what they did. The comic nerd in me enjoyed it, but was disappointed.

TDK was building up to that final scene... it was the gut punch moment... without it... it is wasted... Two-face was done perfectly... no need to show long drawn out madness... like the joker said "it needs a little push"... and Dent got more than just a push...he got steamrolled... a traumatic moment like that changes everything... nothing matters or values the same... and like i said before... his greatest effect on the audience came when he was holding a gun to an innocent child... asking a coin flip/fate to determine his life... nothing he does from that point on will surpass that moment of villany... it just doesn't... that is the perfect ending for him.
 
I loved how Two-Face was handled. He was respectful of the character without dragging him out. I don't know what you would do with Two-Face for a two and a half hour movie.

I think I've always been more in love with the concept of Two-Face than the execution. He's a very personal villain, and I think he works best as a peripheral character, or in a small scale story. He works best as one of Batman's personal failures, not as a supercriminal. I have about zero interest in Two-Face the Mob Boss.
 
I loved how Two-Face was handled. He was respectful of the character without dragging him out. I don't know what you would do with Two-Face for a two and a half hour movie.

I think I've always been more in love with the concept of Two-Face than the execution. He's a very personal villain, and I think he works best as a peripheral character, or in a small scale story. He works best as one of Batman's personal failures, not as a supercriminal. I have about zero interest in Two-Face the Mob Boss.

I honestly think it's a bit much to say that one of Batman's most popular villains for 50 plus years, a character with years and years of material, couldn't be the feature villain for one film.

I myself had a few ideas on how to handle Two-Face as the main baddie, but I really don't want to derail the thread anymore. And it's a bit pointless because I think we all know Two-Face isn't going to be in this movie as living antagonist at least.
 
I honestly think it's a bit much to say that one of Batman's most popular villains for 50 plus years, a character with years and years of material, couldn't be the feature villain for one film.

I myself had a few ideas on how to handle Two-Face as the main baddie, but I really don't want to derail the thread anymore. And it's a bit pointless because I think we all know Two-Face isn't going to be in this movie as living antagonist at least.

Well, that's just my opinion. Like I said, I think he's a great character, but I've only loved a handful of actual stories of his. Most interesting I've ever found him in were stories of his origin, and really personal stuff like his defending/prosecuting Jim during No Man's Land. And I don't see that being the crux of a blockbuster movie; even in TDK you had Joker serve as the necessary source of "blow stuff up good."

As far as derailing the thread, I wouldn't worry too much about that. What is there to actually say about the topic? There's a 99.9% chance that Eckhart was just taking the piss.
 
I loved how Two-Face was handled. He was respectful of the character without dragging him out. I don't know what you would do with Two-Face for a two and a half hour movie.

I think I've always been more in love with the concept of Two-Face than the execution. He's a very personal villain, and I think he works best as a peripheral character, or in a small scale story. He works best as one of Batman's personal failures, not as a supercriminal. I have about zero interest in Two-Face the Mob Boss.

Nolan's take on dent and Two Face is my favorite. Just that arc, the rise and fall of Harvey Dent himself is so goddamn powerful to me. It's one of my top favorite aspects of the film. I've been saying, take Joker out, you still would have a fantastic picture. If you took Dent and his story out, it wouldn't be as good.

I've thought about how you could make Two Face as a villain for a film, and had a hard time since I love Nolan's so much, but I think it can be done, but done carefully.

We always see in the comics that he is the one villain that always tries to come back to sanity and return to a normal life. I'd love to see a film where that happens. It fits into the theme of duality. Perhaps use another villain (perhaps Black Mask or someone) starting to take over with Two Face feeling he is losing. His disorder drives him even more, and at some point in the film, he tries to come back. People try to help him. But it fails. Going back to Batman's villains always being there and it neverending. But that possibility is always there for dent to come back. The question is will he ever. Seeing Dent try to come back would be pretty powerful to me. It would symbolize so much for Bruce and Batman as well with that. Bruce and Batman think he may succeed and might feel proud, but then it all falls apart. It would be pretty heartbreaking to see Bruce know that this could be one failure he may or may not reverse ever.

You could question if Dent is still an honorable man if he kills another villain saving Batman. Did he do the right and honorable thing? Was he a good man doing what was neccessary or just killing him because his madness got the best of him?

Throw in Bullock for good measure with the two Harvey's. Don't mention this flat out but it's kind of cool you have two Harvey's in one film. One is a good man, on the side of the law and the other was a former good man on the law. Again, this plays into duality for everyone.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Staff online

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
202,346
Messages
22,088,733
Members
45,887
Latest member
Elchido
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"