Your comparison kind of breaks down. Creators are criticized for the contents of their work, and you can be sure that many black hip hop artists have been criticized for the contents of their work. And Eminem has absolutely gotten complaints about the contents of his. He raps about it a lot. So the question is, what are the contents of the works of white comic book creators? I'd say they are fictional worlds that are deliberately meant (especially by Marvel) to reflect the real world. While one could say "oh, racial disparity among superheroes actually parallels the inequality in the real world, so let's keep it that way!", should the fight against inequality not be fought in that fictional world as much as it should be fought in the real world? Or better yet, could a fictional world with superheroes to whom we look up actually set an example for our broken one?
They get criticized for the offensive language which is actually one of the things that draws a lot of people to it. I doubt you can find an example of someone asking for it to be altered to better suit another racial or cultural group or to be more 'inclusive'. And no we should never stop fighting against it but I have no doubt it will always be there. As I aid earlier, at my son's school before he graduated, in the cafeteria, there were tables with black kids, tables with white kids and tables with Latino kids. There were a few exceptions but this was not because they were forced to be that way. The kids did this of their own choice. So you may think that you can show some commercials of kids all mixed together or keep 'fighting' to make it otherwise but as of right now, from what I can see, it isn't working.
spideymouse said:
I agree with you that there needs to be more diversity in the comic book industry, but it's easier said than done. For a long time, as the hip hop industry was becoming more mainstream, it was dominated by black males, and just like in comics, it was an uphill battle for minority artists to break into it. It ended up taking a black hip hop producer to open the doors for a white hip hop artist like Eminem to get his chance. Despite this one success story, I'm sure it is still an uphill battle for other minority artists to make it in the hip hop world. The same is likely true in traditionally white-dominated industries like the comic book industry.
Yeah probably still an uphill battle considering there's, you know, still only one white rapper. I'd argue there's more black representation in comics than white representation in hiphop music yet I seem to hear more complaints about the lack of black representation in comics. That seems to be a disparity to me. Do you see it otherwise?
spideymouse said:
What I still don't see is how your argument with E-Man relates to what I was talking about, which was that the black voice is not necessarily invalid just because other minorities are not as loud.
My point was that what you hear most concerning black characters
is complaints. Are you saying they're all valid? Here's the challenge to the white writer writing a black character: if they include ANY black stereotype (black street vernacular, spouting Malcolm X, etc.) you hear complaints about that but if you remove all the stereotypes, you hear complaints that the character isn't 'black enough'. HOw can they win? You telling me these are valid complaints? And I gave other examples to show that I didn't think E-man's complaints were valid. My point is that where there seems to be a lack of complaints from racial/ethnic groups with more right to complain, there seems to be an over abundance of complaints about black characters that I just don't think have legitimate foundation. That is a disparity, something I thought you were against.
spideymouse said:
You ask how he is the everyman, but you answer your question right above that: "he isn't the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest...none of that." And I'll add to that how he has trouble with relationships, money, his family, doubts about himself, regrets, guilt, and yeah, tragedy like losing a loved one. He's really not that great at dealing with all of it, and that's what makes him so relatable to us. That's what makes him an everyman. You may say that those other characters' normal lives are even more "normal" than Peter's, but none of those guys have connected with their readers as much as Spider-Man has.
And yet if he was a black character, he would be 'getting dissed' for not being the elite in any of those things. What character HASN'T lost a loved one, had trouble with a relationships, had doubts about themselves? I'd say if Spidey has connected more, t is due the writing precedent that was set by Stan and Steve and faithfully carried on long enough to stick. I don't think if I was just starting to read Spidey today as a kid, I would feel nearly the affinity I felt for him when I first read him in the 70s.
spideymouse said:
And therefore my experience was not "what it's really like"? Or somehow this type of thing happening in real life is something to balk at? So yes, self-segregation happens at public schools. But what are you trying to say? That it's something to be encouraged or perpetuated?
Well you left off the rest of my quote which is 'at public schools today'. I wasn't aware that your school experience was going on as we speak but rather you made it sound as if it were in the past tense ('my groups of friends in high school
were pretty diverse' and even above '
was not' ) but I'll admit that maybe what I see isnt the norm. Still doesn't change that it exists IN SPITE of the massive effort to make it otherwise.
spideymouse said:
I can see that you do see what's wrong with the world, but it seems like you're arguing that we accept it and do nothing about it except criticize people who do complain about it.
I criticize where I perceive complaining that no solution will satisfy. Again how can a black characer be portrayed as 'black enough' without any stereotype? YOu know I went and looked at some of Cosmic's examples of racism against black people in media. Do yu know anything about Killer B from Naruto? Let me enlighten you:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Killer_B
At a young age, B along with several other children were gathered in order to select a tag partner for
A. Out of all the children gathered, B was the only person able to successfully perform the
Double Lariat with A. As such he was given the name "B", and A stated they would be brothers from that day on.
Killer B is very proud of his own power and very proud of who he is. Like
Naruto Uzumaki, who has great overconfidence, Killer B can be quite cocky and stubborn, especially in terms of his own strength, demanding respect from others and asks to be called "Lord Jinchūriki" (人柱力様,
Jinchūriki-sama) and his tailed beast be called "Lord Eight-Tails" (八尾様,
Hachibi-sama).
Now get ready cuz I'm gettin ready to lay on ya why he's considered an example of racism against black people:
B has a special way of expressing his pride through song, more specifically in rap-style and tends to use "Bakayarō! Konoyarō !" (「バカヤロー!コノヤロー!) when referring or speaking to others. He will even write his rhymes in the middle of a fight, or during an important meeting, even if they are no good, which is usually the case. This sometimes
causes the people around him to become greatly annoyed by him. B doesn't respect anyone who would make fun of rap or his lyrics.
I googled 'naruto+racism' and this is what came back - he's a rapper. Really? He sonds like a totally cool character who is treated with respect and honor but because they made him a rapper, it's racist? I hate this term but it fits: weak sauce. And another fiene example of finding racism where I argue none exists.
spideymouse said:
Initial elation then preemptive complaining AND preemptive excitement/optimism. Marvel Studios has already made several movies that were considered big gambles at the time: making an Iron Man movie (an unknown pre-2008) and casting RDJ as Tony Stark; making a Thor movie (even lesser known than Iron Man); making an Avengers movie. And they've all paid off. They are continuing to roll the dice with Ant-Man and Guardians of the Galaxy, and a hugely ambitious crossover event with Thanos in the future. Yes, the risks, the criticisms will be there, but if there's a studio that I believe would have enough faith in their properties and roll the dice on a Black Panther movie, it would be Marvel Studios.
sigh* You know, there are even examples I have pointed to you in this very thread of the kind of stuff that'll be spouted if a BP film is made. I've pointed you to phantom x's post multiple times without any comment from you. Read the article that incrediblejeff links in his post and read some of the comments below it.
Here's another example: Poor George Lucas (not LITERALLY poor but you get my meaning) has bent over backwards more than any white man I know of to appease black people (giving Jackson a [gaudy-lookin] purple light saber, paying to make Red Tails out of his own pocket and then appologizing to black film makers if in making that movie he somehow hurt their careers [still don't get that one]) so it seems beyond believability that he would deliberately try to make a racist character yet this is what many claimed he did with Jarjar Binks. And I don't even see how anyone perceived that binks was some rip on black people anyway. Another example of finding racism where there is none.
I guess when you're not the big company risking being stuck with the racist label, it's easy enough to brush it off. I mean, if they make a BP film and someone cries racism (and they WILL) you're only out the cost of a movie ticket, right? No one (hopefully) will accuse GOTG of racist undertnes because it doesn't deal with black characters. I am not saying that there hasn't been examples of racism against blacks in film or even comics but I think that that they've grown so accustomed to looking for i that they often see racism where there is none. That's what I think Disney is afraid of.