EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

[craigdbfan]

Man do I want to see Black Panther already.

 

[tvor03]

Pondering this question I looked at the countries and Kingdoms that resembles Wakanda. The one I kept coming to was the Vatican. We have a secretive religious and political leader, secretive base of operations, people dressed in traditional clothing, modern yet keeping a eye on tradition.
Based on that I would have the populace of Wakanda dress like normal people in the 21st century. The only ones who wear traditional dress are those who hold titles in the government/religion...and then they would be modern takes on the clothing. T'Challa wouldnt run around in his Black Panther garb all the time. I imagine he would wear something similar to what James Earl Jones wore in Coming To America but instead of a lion head it would be a black panther head.

That is a very interesting comparison. I like it.

And I definitely wouldn't want BP to use his cape during fights. His cape should purely be a ceremonial thing, never for combat. It just invites too many Batman comparisons that aren't wanted.

 

[DrCosmic]

I wouldn't set the whole movie in Wakanda, if only to show that T'Challa is more than just Wakanda, and I'm not sure him ticking off Tony is a great idea, because it makes T'Challa look like a villain or at least an uberjerk. He could just invite Tony over as a pretense, like he did in his first appearance with the Fantastic Four, then he's still kind of a jerk, but it's okay, because he helps you up and explains everything afterwards.

Man-Ape needs help though... I can't take him seriously on his own, and adding too much depth to him just makes him Killmonger. Perhaps a combination of Man-Ape and someone else? Klaw? Hunter? Moses Magnum?

What really makes a movie like this for me, other than the action, is the dialogue. Especially having that royal thing going on, people need to say things that are awesome. I'd pepper that thing with so many African proverbs and zingers and badarse explanations it wouldn't be funny. That's probably my favorite part of Hudlin's BP: "Emotional? No, I'm Happy... all my enemies are in one place." And that whole "What's your leverage" thing... craziness. Except everyone would be on that insanely quotable stuff, kinda like the characters in The Dark Knight trilogy.

 

[tamron]

I love the Wakanda-Vatican comparison. Considering the religious overtones with Bast and the Black Panther mantle, it works. It completely works.

Man-Ape needs help though... I can't take him seriously on his own, and adding too much depth to him just makes him Killmonger. Perhaps a combination of Man-Ape and someone else? Klaw? Hunter? Moses Magnum?

In the same vein, M'Baku works if you focus more on the White Gorilla cult aspect and have Killmonger as more of a intellectual rival to T'Challa. Similiar objective, but the difference of motivations makes them quite dissimilar.

 

[E-Man]

I can see M'Baku being used as a side villain that BP has to take out before getting to the big fish of Killmonger in a movie. Killmonger is awesome enough to carry a film on his own, but if they wanted to use Man-Ape I can see him as that type of villain that isn't the main threat. At the same time I don't want a movie to have more than one movie just based on how many times multiple villains have hurt movies in the past. If done right M'Baku could be a good villain, but Killmonger is a much better choice in every way.

 

[Frico]

Man do I want to see Black Panther already.

Watching the leaked Ant-Man footage made my mind go crazy on what they could do with BP. I hope one day we'll see Tony, Hank, Banner and T'Challa together. The smartest men in the MU.

 

[Red Mask]

It's really funny how fans think Wakanda should look more mundane in order to be acceptable to today's audience.

 

[blalex620]

I wouldn't set the whole movie in Wakanda, if only to show that T'Challa is more than just Wakanda, and I'm not sure him ticking off Tony is a great idea, because it makes T'Challa look like a villain or at least an uberjerk. He could just invite Tony over as a pretense, like he did in his first appearance with the Fantastic Four, then he's still kind of a jerk, but it's okay, because he helps you up and explains everything afterwards.

Man-Ape needs help though... I can't take him seriously on his own, and adding too much depth to him just makes him Killmonger. Perhaps a combination of Man-Ape and someone else? Klaw? Hunter? Moses Magnum?

What really makes a movie like this for me, other than the action, is the dialogue. Especially having that royal thing going on, people need to say things that are awesome. I'd pepper that thing with so many African proverbs and zingers and badarse explanations it wouldn't be funny. That's probably my favorite part of Hudlin's BP: "Emotional? No, I'm Happy... all my enemies are in one place." And that whole "What's your leverage" thing... craziness. Except everyone would be on that insanely quotable stuff, kinda like the characters in The Dark Knight trilogy.

Man-Ape was the only BP villain I knew of lol but anyone better could definitely work.
And I said BP should tick Tony off for a reason. I was thinking something along the lines of with all the supes popping up around the world and especially with the Avengers making themselves known to the world, BP feels like something big is coming, something big enough to threaten the safety of Wakanda. He feels like even though going to the outside world is looked down upon by the Wakanda chiefs it's a necessary thing to do. He also realizes that just showing up at Tony's door wouldn't get him or anyone to take him serious seeing as he's from an African country that no ones ever heard of. So he chose to show Stark who he knows everyone will listen to that he can be a force to be reckoned with. And after defeating Stark he explains all of this to him. With this explanation even Tony understands BP did the smart move.

 

[tvor03]

Watching the leaked Ant-Man footage made my mind go crazy on what they could do with BP. I hope one day we'll see Tony, Hank, Banner and T'Challa together. The smartest men in the MU.

Too bad Beast and Reed Richards can't be in that room as well. All working together trying to figure out a solution to some really huge problem.

 

[roach]

I would have Wakanda be this completely cut off country that no one knows a thing about. However they are the only source of vibranium in the world and the sale of the ore has led to them being extremely rich and extremely technological.
However some governments and corporations look at Wakanda like they are some savages in loin cloths and want the vibranium to themselves. Several corrupt corps ( AIM and others) get together to steal some of the vibranium. Klaw is picked to lead the theft. Klaw and his people attack and steal a big chunk of the mound. T'Challa goes after the chunk.

 

[metaphysician]

Not really. When you make the world look just like our world, you have created the expectation that it is just like our world except for the changes you show happen. If you break that unspoken agreement, it's like trying to retcon real life. They can't say "well, everyone on MCU Earth has two hearts," because that breaks the illusion, the contract, the premise. That's why, as far as we've seen, the MCU is like our world, and notably unlike 616 whenever that conflicts with Earth's actual history, and that's why we can expect them to continue to make that decision.

Are there secrets? Absolutely, Wakanda is highlighted at the end of Iron Man 2, but none of that gives the MCU the licence or motivation to throw audience expectations of the world they've created out the window.

Show, don't tell. That's what I'm saying.

I think the biggest risk, on this angle, is not so much that the audience won't buy that a secret fantastic nation could exist in the setting. The audience already accepts quite a bit. Its more that, they need to accept that Wakanda is credible within the setting, in terms of its portrayal and characterization. If the Wakandans don't act recognizably like people, then it will stand out like a sore thumb in a setting where even the aliens have comprehensible human motives and goals.

And "badly done green aesop" is not going to qualify.

Speak that word, brotha!

I think a lot of the great stories come from T'Challa trying to balance his new ideas against the old ways. That's a story that resonates with everyone,in every society, and is a big part of BP's original mythos. T'Challa's conflict with Wakanda's old ways, and the problems he brings to their beliefs with all his tech, typified by Erik Killmonger, makes for a good story, and one of his greatest, if only for being one of the first comic book story arcs ever. I think calling back to that would be a great start, what with Killmonger being the closest he has to an arch enemy, to set up for that conflict in #2 after dealing with Klaw and some mercs and maybe M'Baka in #1. After that, there'd be a few different ways you could do things...

While I agree with a lot of these themes just fine, I think they could be done quite well with my "Japan of Africa" Wakanda model, and without the baggage of "random sci-fi utopia". Giving Wakanda laser cannons and skyships in the 1600s doesn't really contribute in any meaningful way, and T'Challa comes off better as a genius if he's not just using off-the-shelf Wakanda tech invented by people centuries before.

A thought on Priest's tech level: Did Priest make Wakanda a product of T'Challa or vice versa? Because by that time, T'Challa had been active long enough to have designed and invented Wakanda's military machine, satellites included, all by himself.

IIRC, T'Challa was indeed largely the source of Wakanda's technology. He didn't single-handedly take them from the stone age to the space age, but the ultra tech post dates the beginning of his rule. I *think* this was also the case in prior iterations.

 

[metaphysician]

I would have Wakanda be this completely cut off country that no one knows a thing about.

However they are the only source of vibranium in the world and the sale of the ore has led to them being extremely rich and extremely technological.

You can have one or the other. You can't have both.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Of course you can have both.

Most people don't care if advanced technology is near impossible without global trade based on obscure academic theories.

Not even a little bit.

It's a sci-fi/fantasy superhero movie not a historical thesis.

 

[roach]

You can have one or the other. You can't have both.

actually you can...i forgot to mention it. The vibranium sales are done through a third party....think of the lawyer from Usual Suspects...he has the power to make deals for T'challa and Wakanda.

 

[InternetPeople]

actually you can...i forgot to mention it. The vibranium sales are done through a third party....think of the lawyer from Usual Suspects...he has the power to make deals for T'challa and Wakanda.

There's an example of overthinking something

 

[terry78]

Did you forget where you are all of a sudden?

 

[InternetPeople]

No, I forget where I am constantly

 

[roach]

There's an example of overthinking something

not really

 

[Steve Holt]

say, they sold vibranium mid 1900s (maybe WWII T'Chaka met with SSR),
-made some money,
-sent all their best and brightest scientists and students abroad to study at the best schools (maybe under the guise of some other african nation).
-Then the scientists come back with all this extra knowledge (or confirmation of their theories) and without the constrants of commercialism, capitalism and corporations they excell and exceed the outside world.

 

[DrCosmic]

actually you can...i forgot to mention it. The vibranium sales are done through a third party....think of the lawyer from Usual Suspects...he has the power to make deals for T'challa and Wakanda.

That sounds like a bad idea, partly because it needlessly complicates the setting and story, but mostly because it suggests the primary intention is not to make a great beloved film, but to make Wakanda as uber as possible. Who wants to sympathize with uber people who start uber, stay uber and are always right? That's part of why Wakanda, Themyscira and Atlantis get ransacked in the comics so often.

Of course you can have both.

Most people don't care if advanced technology is near impossible without global trade based on obscure academic theories.

Not even a little bit.

It's a sci-fi/fantasy superhero movie not a historical thesis.

Do you know why origin stories always get done and take so long and explain so much in reference to our world? Not because the audience is full of academics, it's because the audience wants to be taken on the entire journey, not just thrown into a parallel earth where there are uber African countries. The result, if its not done, is not "this violates some thesis" but simply "this movie is stupid" or "Where did all this crap come from?" or "plot hole" or the MCU executive's cry of "it's just not realistic." No one analyzes why it's not realistic, they just intuitively know there are no uber African countries, no uber landlocked countries, no uber hidden countries. No academics needed, simply a feeling, an intuition that comes from the filmmakers not earning their sci fi and fantasy from the audience. It's not the same as in a fantasy or sci fi film where we start in a world totally unlike our own. That's not what the MCU is, or what any superhero film has been, except the failed Watchmen. In fact, thats a pretty good example of a quality superhero film where it looked like our world, but with a different history and consequently a lot of people didn't "get it" - no academic analysis, just a silent, subtle disconnect.

 

[roach]

Not dealing with the outside world doesn't make them über. Thy would have problems like every other country. There are people within who plot to take the throne. People outside who want to turn Wakanda into a strip mine. There will be a divide between the rich and the poor. Not everyone gets a fancy car or high technology.
In my idea Wakanda is very closed off and the villain of the piece uses that to his advantage. Tchalla learns that is a bad way to rule a country. In the end Wakanda joins the world community....but there are still Wakandans that like the old ways better and plot against him.

 

[DrCosmic]

My bad, I let my other argument bleed into yours, roach. Regardless, it sounds like people outside know about the country... that makes sense. When earlier you said no one knows anything about it, but it's got all this prosperity from interacting with people, it's like... hmmm...

Unless the lawyer plays into the story, it may not be a good idea to include.

 

[DrCosmic]

I think the biggest risk, on this angle, is not so much that the audience won't buy that a secret fantastic nation could exist in the setting. The audience already accepts quite a bit. Its more that, they need to accept that Wakanda is credible within the setting, in terms of its portrayal and characterization. If the Wakandans don't act recognizably like people, then it will stand out like a sore thumb in a setting where even the aliens have comprehensible human motives and goals.

And "badly done green aesop" is not going to qualify.

Haha, I had to look up 'Green Aesop' but I knew exactly what site to go to. Agreed all around.

While I agree with a lot of these themes just fine, I think they could be done quite well with my "Japan of Africa" Wakanda model, and without the baggage of "random sci-fi utopia". Giving Wakanda laser cannons and skyships in the 1600s doesn't really contribute in any meaningful way, and T'Challa comes off better as a genius if he's not just using off-the-shelf Wakanda tech invented by people centuries before.

I feel you on that. "Japan of Africa" just works so well... kinda like Afro Samurai... the moment you hear it, you 'get it.' It's not some strange thing that invites question, it explains itself... someone in Africa just did what Japan did, why not? It's sad that you kinda have to reintroduce real world Africa to the audience (I can see the long establishing shots of Lagos and Kinshassa: buildings, African people, computers, African people, roads and trains, African people idly laughing and talking in a Cafe, no those aren't actors, that's real world footage, get it yet?) so they can understand that Africa has countries and "normal" cities, but that can all be done in a matter of half a minute, really.

Thinking on that, it would be very interesting if Black Panther were set in different countries in Africa... instead of chasing Klaw to Switzerland, perhaps to Cape Town... instead of meeting T'Challa in New York, we meet him in Cairo. It'd be interesting to use Africa, all of it, from Pyramids to Serengeti, from rainforests to war zones, in all it's glory and unglory, the way Europe is so often used in films.

IIRC, T'Challa was indeed largely the source of Wakanda's technology. He didn't single-handedly take them from the stone age to the space age, but the ultra tech post dates the beginning of his rule. I *think* this was also the case in prior iterations.

I think that just works out soooo much better for the character and the appeal of him and his nation. I mean... how sucky would it have been for Iron Man if Howard Stark had already invented everything and Tony just kinda walked into it. Meh. Big Meh.

((Edit: From what I read in the original appearance and early part of Jungle Action, T'Challa did seem to singlehandedly take Wakanda from the Bronze age to the Space Age. All of the tech was credited directly to him.))

Now T'Challa discovering the uberness of the ancient Wakandans, a bit like Tony did with the new element thing, that would be utterly awesome. And it also works with reality with so much uberness of the Ancient African Kingdoms being lost with Alexandria and Colonization.

Man-Ape was the only BP villain I knew of lol but anyone better could definitely work.
And I said BP should tick Tony off for a reason. I was thinking something along the lines of with all the supes popping up around the world and especially with the Avengers making themselves known to the world, BP feels like something big is coming, something big enough to threaten the safety of Wakanda. He feels like even though going to the outside world is looked down upon by the Wakanda chiefs it's a necessary thing to do. He also realizes that just showing up at Tony's door wouldn't get him or anyone to take him serious seeing as he's from an African country that no ones ever heard of. So he chose to show Stark who he knows everyone will listen to that he can be a force to be reckoned with. And after defeating Stark he explains all of this to him. With this explanation even Tony understands BP did the smart move.

So how do you know Tony fans (much of the audience) won't be like "T'Challa's a ______ for that. Tony didn't do anything to him."

 

[chamber-music]

Tony Stark likable is an arrogant *****e in the movies and in the comics. It would be fun to see him put in place and challenged by someone just as intelligent. Stark often thinks he knows best because he is used to being the smartest guy in the room. Banner didn't really challenge Stark in the Avengers but I would like to see either Banner, T'Challa, Pym or all three of them challenge his ideas and come up with better ones proving they are just as smart if not smarter at times like they do in the comics.

 

[RockSP]