EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 3

[KRYPTON INC.]

The last sentence isn't reality. Something being cool and powerful doesn't draw everyone in. "Yes those people have great lives, what does that have to do with me?" I'm not down for devoting all the necessary time to a POV character that is not T'Challa. Cutting to Ross fighting M'Baka while T'Challa is fighting Klaw rubs me the wrong way.

"Quietly Tony Starking" is almost an oxymoron, y'know? And then, if T'Challa is just continuing what his father and grandfather was already doing, there's no struggle for him to find what he's supposed to do, just do what he's been doing. The only problem is how to not blow up the world doing it. I'd like to see more for T'Challa to do.

As was stated, agree to disagree. Would it be fair to at least state this about our two positions. Just so I can get a handle on our views as I see them. I am guessing from what you have written that you want the story to focus more on T'challa struggling to make Wakanda a great nation and lift it's people up, which brings him into conflict with villains both domestic and foreign to Wakanda? I think that BP has advanced his country (Quietly Tony Starking as it were), and he is smart enough in that Stark like futurist way to see the tensions both in the Wakandan population and on the world stage the isolationist policies of his forefathers is bringing to a full on boil. Caught in the middle as nations ruler and protector T'challa would have more than enough on a regular day to fill his plate. Add in a Vibranium plot/White Gorilla insurrection/Klaw and I think he has a whole lot to struggle with.

I also just want a film that would get to the meat, as it were, sooner than later. Ross/Lynne helps with GA POV, but showing what Wakanda would lose if the Panther fails also brings the audience in. If the Panther doesn't prevail then the advanced and peaceful life he is trying to maintain for his people comes to ruin. Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[DrCosmic]

I want the story to focus on T'Challa, period. That naturally leads to part of his challenge being making Wakanda what it should be. I know from experience (Fantastic Four, Green Lantern) that simply showing high stakes does not draw the audience in. Exclusively having super problems and super solutions is not in any way the audiences point of view, so I don't see how you can say that Ross/Lynne help with the POV, unless you think the general audience naturally identifies with running a country. If you use Ross/Lynne as the POV character (and again, that means the character that actually shares the same exact point of view with the audience), they become the heart of the franchise, and it will go downhill without them as a major role with a major character arc each film. That's an option, but you'd have to do it all the way, you can't take a non-typical approach to a superhero, and then expect a typical superhero effect where the audience identifies strongly with the hero when the first thing you do is alienate the superhero from the audience as this larger than life figure with problems totally unlike theirs. Thor fixed this by humbling the superhero and taking away all his greatness so that the audience could identify with someone with problems like theirs. Is that what you suggest for Black Panther?

Give the audience something to feel, don't Green Lantern it and say "The Universe is in danger, so the audience will care!" It would not be the first time the GA changed the channel on people in Africa dying, and those were for real countries that actually need and accept outside help.

Edit: What you *could* do potentially, is take your POV character and basically turn them into Black Panther's viewpoint in the first film, though that'd be difficult since part of BP's viewpoint includes the burden of legacy and royalty and such, but if you did that, perhaps you wouldn't need them for the second film since the audience has actually been brought into BP's viewpoint step by step. I wouldn't suggest that either though.

 

[bubbadoom]

Seems like something could be learned/borrowed from COMING TO AMERICA - the movie starts with and shows Eddie Murphy's country to be the norm, and what he encounters in New York is the odd or new experience.
Seems like a small step to make that country Wakanda and go from there...

 

[DrCosmic]

If you want to do a New York focused story, that's a possibility. That's a variation on what Thor did, take the character away from their uber home and take away everything that makes them uber. The Prince in Coming to America did this willingly, while Thor was forced to by his father, but the result is the same, we see this person dealing with normal mundane human problems and having to solve them the same way we do, though perhaps with a notable amount more fighting spirit/training. Then the story ends in the original uber home. It's an inversion of the hero's journey that's kinda cool. I'm more of a Wakanda guy myself, but that's the kind of thing that it makes sense to agree to disagree on.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think starting with a Wakanda established as a nation rising on the world stage for all the obvious reasons one could rationalize (new more cost effective Vibranium production, the rising interest of media looking into this veiled society, rumors of Wakandan military tech from Wakandan ex-patriots who choose to leave at great cost to themselves ect.) is what would work if the intent were to be more a revelation story. "This too was a part of this world, you just didn't know it" as opposed to a more "this is our heroes journey, see him rise to his potential." Now that's a fine way to do it. We could follow T'challa as young prince struggle to overcome the forces that killed his father while using his genius to bring his country into an advanced and powerful state. That's a great way to do it. It's just not how I would do it. Let's get Wakanda as an techno advanced society sooner than later. Give people a peek into this land, it's daily rythems (a judicious peek could do this) so we have a view as to what's so special about this place from fantasy. Not to get political, but even without grounding it in real world diplomatic terms, an African country that is independent, provides a high standard of living that rivals the west, with a highly educated population that cannot be easily pushed around by anyone would be a special place indeed. I don't think it does a diservice to the real countries on the continent to say that politically/economically/socially things are not as optimal as they could be in many nations. There's a resource boom in some countries but still alot of challenges for the people that live there. A strong and self sufficient (at least as much as any nation can be) country like Wakanda would be special indeed. That's what the Panther's struggle would be. In a modern world how does he keep things in balance and protect his home while being part of the wider world.

 

[DrCosmic]

A Green Lantern ring is special too. Doesn't mean the audience cares or likes it, no matter how much you rationalize it. Trying to relate Panther's royal problems to the balance of home life vs public life is interesting though. It's a pretty vague metaphor, and not a problem everyone can relate to, honestly. Usually that's a problem faced by families, women especially. You'd have to hammer it pretty hard for that to connect at all.

I don't have a problem, essentially, with the Blade/Fantasy Franchise take, but I'd prefer if you guys embrace the reality of what that means for the story, including a very strong very prescient POV character and a lack of development and audience identification with T'Challa.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well, in all good humor, for such a "vague" idea it sure does seem a staple in varying degrees for many a super heroic yarn. Clark Kent must balance the freedom to live and express himself as he wants with the effect his very existence has on the world and it's people. Bruce Wayne has to balance the need to catch a no holds barred criminal genius with the limits of how far one must go to do such a thing (the phone tapping device). The Son of Odin shows he has the heart of a hero when he sacrifices his lady love and destroys the Rainbow Bridge, his only way to easily see her again, if at all. (Yes, I know.. a way was found without the bridge later. At the time it was a big choice for Thor.) .Maybe I am reading too much into it?

 

[DrCosmic]

Well... yeah. Something vague can apply to a lot of different situations... cuz it's vague. I mean, I wouldn't count phone tapping or catching a criminal genius as home life... but the idea is so vague, it kinda fits. But you bring up a good point that these are usually climactic challenges that demonstrate who the hero is, after a different struggle has forged them into who they are. I'm not sure Thor's destroying the Rainbow Bridge would have been as interesting if we had not seen him change such a great deal on a personal level.

 

[blalex620]

My idea for a BP film is a origin/Game of Thrones/Thor style film:
The first 15 minutes are used to set up the history of the Black Panther and a little history on Vibranium and through that show a little of how Vibranium and the legacy of the Black Panther helped Wakanda. One of the things explained would be that through the selling in secret of Vibranium T'Challa's ancestors where able to amass a large fortune for Wakanda in order to help build it up (how it happened in the comics and pretty believable because many nations got rich through selling their resources).

Cut to T'Challa's childhood and we're shown a young T'Challa training and learning how to one day take over the mantle of the BP. We also see the beginning of what makes T'Challa believe that Wakanda should become a part of the rest of the world.

Present day we see a early-mid 20s T'Challa arguing with the Wakandian council that Wakanda shouldn't be hidden. We see that some council members agree and some don't. Some of the ones who don't we find out are a part of the secret White Gorilla cult. T'Challa's dad finds out that members of the cult are planning a coup for the throne and in order to not place T'Challa in any danger he decides to send T'Challa outside of Wakanda in the vein of him needing to experience the outside world to become a better leader. T'Challa is happy about this.

The next part of the film is spent as a mix between T'Challa facing his trials and tribulations in America, maybe throwing in a cameo or reference or two to the rest of the MCU at this time, and what's happening in Wakanda between T'Challa's dad and the White Gorilla cult.

The last part of the movie finds T'Challa after being in America for a year he get's a call and finds out Man-Ape has challenged his father to a duel for the crown and his dad is killed before he could get there. He then goes through the process to become the BP and fights Man-Ape to take back the title.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

My idea for a BP film is a origin/Game of Thrones/Thor style film:
The first 15 minutes are used to set up the history of the Black Panther and a little history on Vibranium and through that show a little of how Vibranium and the legacy of the Black Panther helped Wakanda. One of the things explained would be that through the selling in secret of Vibranium T'Challa's ancestors where able to amass a large fortune for Wakanda in order to help build it up (how it happened in the comics and pretty believable because many nations got rich through selling their resources).

Cut to T'Challa's childhood and we're shown a young T'Challa training and learning how to one day take over the mantle of the BP. We also see the beginning of what makes T'Challa believe that Wakanda should become a part of the rest of the world.

Present day we see a early-mid 20s T'Challa arguing with the Wakandian council that Wakanda shouldn't be hidden. We see that some council members agree and some don't. Some of the ones who don't we find out are a part of the secret White Gorilla cult. T'Challa's dad finds out that members of the cult are planning a coup for the throne and in order to not place T'Challa in any danger he decides to send T'Challa outside of Wakanda in the vein of him needing to experience the outside world to become a better leader. T'Challa is happy about this.

The next part of the film is spent as a mix between T'Challa facing his trials and tribulations in America, maybe throwing in a cameo or reference or two to the rest of the MCU at this time, and what's happening in Wakanda between T'Challa's dad and the White Gorilla cult.

The last part of the movie finds T'Challa after being in America for a year he get's a call and finds out Man-Ape has challenged his father to a duel for the crown and his dad is killed before he could get there. He then goes through the process to become the BP and fights Man-Ape to take back the title.

Have to say... It's concise, to the point and doesn't seem to meander. It gets to the meat of things pretty quick. It could work. Bravo sir. My only question is would you deal with the isolation issues in a grounded way, or do you think that gets too into the weeds of real world politics and distracts from the super hero mythos too much?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

How much do we all think a cinematic T'challa would be on board with the isolationist policy of Wakanda? Would he be all for it? Is there a sense of chagrin that he of all people must be the one to bring his country to the wider world? Is he reluctant to change this policy? Eager? Does he think it was fine in the past but is an untenable position in the current world? If there is a dissident movement in country of those who want a more open Wakanda whose side does he come down on? I would like to see something dealing with these ideas play out. T'challa may be an idealized leader of a country, but I hope a film about the Panther mythos takes head on that much of what we have seen over the years about the Panther and his home is that it's almost a total monarchy. And a well meaning dictatorship of power, no matter the intention is still a dictatorship. I could see taking these ideas on would be either interesting or bog things down in too much real world politics. Which way would you all want to go?

 

[DrCosmic]

My idea for a BP film is a origin/Game of Thrones/Thor style film:
The first 15 minutes are used to set up the history of the Black Panther and a little history on Vibranium and through that show a little of how Vibranium and the legacy of the Black Panther helped Wakanda. One of the things explained would be that through the selling in secret of Vibranium T'Challa's ancestors where able to amass a large fortune for Wakanda in order to help build it up (how it happened in the comics and pretty believable because many nations got rich through selling their resources).

Cut to T'Challa's childhood and we're shown a young T'Challa training and learning how to one day take over the mantle of the BP. We also see the beginning of what makes T'Challa believe that Wakanda should become a part of the rest of the world.

Present day we see a early-mid 20s T'Challa arguing with the Wakandian council that Wakanda shouldn't be hidden. We see that some council members agree and some don't. Some of the ones who don't we find out are a part of the secret White Gorilla cult. T'Challa's dad finds out that members of the cult are planning a coup for the throne and in order to not place T'Challa in any danger he decides to send T'Challa outside of Wakanda in the vein of him needing to experience the outside world to become a better leader. T'Challa is happy about this.

The next part of the film is spent as a mix between T'Challa facing his trials and tribulations in America, maybe throwing in a cameo or reference or two to the rest of the MCU at this time, and what's happening in Wakanda between T'Challa's dad and the White Gorilla cult.

The last part of the movie finds T'Challa after being in America for a year he get's a call and finds out Man-Ape has challenged his father to a duel for the crown and his dad is killed before he could get there. He then goes through the process to become the BP and fights Man-Ape to take back the title.

Sorry I ever doubted you. This takes care of the POV and connection part by removing T'Challa from Wakanda. I probably wouldn't take 15 minutes before giving the audience an emotional foothold. I would intertwine the exploration of Wakanda with T'Challa's childhood. Any other changes I would make would be just personal preference.

How much do we all think a cinematic T'challa would be on board with the isolationist policy of Wakanda? Would he be all for it? Is there a sense of chagrin that he of all people must be the one to bring his country to the wider world? Is he reluctant to change this policy? Eager? Does he think it was fine in the past but is an untenable position in the current world? If there is a dissident movement in country of those who want a more open Wakanda whose side does he come down on? I would like to see something dealing with these ideas play out. T'challa may be an idealized leader of a country, but I hope a film about the Panther mythos takes head on that much of what we have seen over the years about the Panther and his home is that it's almost a total monarchy. And a well meaning dictatorship of power, no matter the intention is still a dictatorship. I could see taking these ideas on would be either interesting or bog things down in too much real world politics. Which way would you all want to go?

I think that the most real issues that the depressing logical conclusions should be saved to a sequel. The first film should be more about how great it is, and it certainly is a responsibility, but the focus should be, imho, on the emotional responsibility rather than the intellectual one.

I would think that after his Walkabout T'Challa is very much about interacting with the outside world, and honestly, as someone who is a tech genius, in part due to his outside world education, I'd think he'd be far on the interaction side, which is why the conflict with the White Gorilla Cult/Jabari Tribe is such a big part of the story. That way, it's not being 'bogged down' so to speak, it's just dealing with the bad guy. It can still be nuanced with Klaw being there to force outside interaction, but not in a way T'Challa would want. You don't need to get preachy about it, just include it in the villains motivations.

Save all the stuff about economy, political factions and etc for the sequel though.

 

[bubbadoom]

My idea for a BP film is a origin/Game of Thrones/Thor style film:
The first 15 minutes are used to set up the history of the Black Panther and a little history on Vibranium and through that show a little of how Vibranium and the legacy of the Black Panther helped Wakanda. One of the things explained would be that through the selling in secret of Vibranium T'Challa's ancestors where able to amass a large fortune for Wakanda in order to help build it up (how it happened in the comics and pretty believable because many nations got rich through selling their resources).

Cut to T'Challa's childhood and we're shown a young T'Challa training and learning how to one day take over the mantle of the BP. We also see the beginning of what makes T'Challa believe that Wakanda should become a part of the rest of the world.

Present day we see a early-mid 20s T'Challa arguing with the Wakandian council that Wakanda shouldn't be hidden. We see that some council members agree and some don't. Some of the ones who don't we find out are a part of the secret White Gorilla cult. T'Challa's dad finds out that members of the cult are planning a coup for the throne and in order to not place T'Challa in any danger he decides to send T'Challa outside of Wakanda in the vein of him needing to experience the outside world to become a better leader. T'Challa is happy about this.

The next part of the film is spent as a mix between T'Challa facing his trials and tribulations in America, maybe throwing in a cameo or reference or two to the rest of the MCU at this time, and what's happening in Wakanda between T'Challa's dad and the White Gorilla cult.

The last part of the movie finds T'Challa after being in America for a year he get's a call and finds out Man-Ape has challenged his father to a duel for the crown and his dad is killed before he could get there. He then goes through the process to become the BP and fights Man-Ape to take back the title.

I am not saying this is a "bad" idea - just wondering why the radical departure from the Panther's actual origin?

Isn't T'Challa being present at his dad's death and maiming Klaw in retaliation rather fundamental to both the Panther's origin and the dynamics between him and Klaw?

I am all for some cross over/cameos with the Marvel Universe - the most obvious and essential seems to be Howard Stark prior to the events in CA:TFA which also serves as a logical method for Klaw to first learn of Vibranium and sets him on his quest for the hidden land of Wakanda.

When the Panther encounters the "modern" world - does it necessarily have to be NY? Would London, Tokyo, etc. also serve the same purpose. I know once he joined the Avengers he was NY based [even held a civilian job as a teacher if I recall - which I did not really like] but I do not remember NY being specific to his development as the Panther.

Seems like the basic story of FF 52-53 would be the logical place to start with a Panther movie. May have to substitute Stark or Fury for Richards & Co. but a lot of the basic elements are all right there.

The Man-Ape trying to subvert the Panther Clan with his White Gorilla Cult does make for a good sub plot, perhaps as a set up in this one and paid off in the sequel.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think alterations to some story aspects are inevitable. I am open to them on a case by case basis these days. I do agree that I would like appreciate if the BP film did have an old school James Bond/Indiana Jones type travelogue section. Having some location or back lot footage of T'challa facing foes around the world would also save money by not having Wakanda on screen the whole time. For a first film I think a lot of stuff will be held back for reasons not just due to the narrative of the screenplay.

 

[bubbadoom]

I think alterations to some story aspects are inevitable. I am open to them on a case by case basis these days. I do agree that I would like appreciate if the BP film did have an old school James Bond/Indiana Jones type travelogue section. Having some location or back lot footage of T'challa facing foes around the world would also save money by not having Wakanda on screen the whole time. For a first film I think a lot of stuff will be held back for reasons not just due to the narrative of the screenplay.

I found it odd in CA:TFA that Marvel substituted the Red Skull for Baron Zemo in the end sequence that gets Cap frozen, but I guess that worked out okay...

Klaw has always been Panther's Dr. Doom or Green Goblin - would hate to loose him before be even get started.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I found it odd in CA:TFA that Marvel substituted the Red Skull for Baron Zemo in the end sequence that gets Cap frozen, but I guess that worked out okay...

Klaw has always been Panther's Dr. Doom or Green Goblin - would hate to loose him before be even get started.

Yeah, going off into non cannon flights of fancy is something I have learned to accept with Marvel/DC films. I think Klaw should be involved in some way with a BP film. And he should, in my mind, have some role in the death of BP's dad. But they may come up with something different. And it could be good. Who knows? I could see a Man-Ape or Killmonger plot for a first films story and then a follow up with Klaw that starts with him in a more Hudlin styled cyborg that becomes the creature of pure sound energy we all know and love.

 

[bubbadoom]

It will be fun to see what Marvel does with BP - hope it happens very soon...

 

[DrCosmic]

Seems like the basic story of FF 52-53 would be the logical place to start with a Panther movie. May have to substitute Stark or Fury for Richards & Co. but a lot of the basic elements are all right there.

If you're going the FF 52 route... use Hawkeye. He doesn't have a film, so he's a bit of a blank canvas, and they are comparable characters, with Black Panther being the clear superior. Plus, the Hawkeye-BP friendship was pretty cool in Earth Mightiest Heroes. As Hawkeye is introduced to Wakanda (perhaps undercover as State Diplomat Everett Ross!) there are flashbacks, which include Howard Stark's meeting with Azzari the Wise in which he is gifted the Vibranium. And of course, the Flashback that involves T'Chaka's death and Klaw's injury. But largely, the movie would move from Hawkeye's arrival, introduction to the mysterious Panther, who quickly humbles him and then recruits him to help with the Klaw issue, just as BP did with the FF in FF 52. Then Hawkeye becomes more and more involved in the struggle of Wakanda, it becomes more and more personal for him (relationship with Shuri?). By the end of the film, Panther battles Klaw and Hawkeye battles, I don't know, Radioactive Man or something. Film ends with T'Challa giving Hawkeye a hovercycle and in the post credits T'Challa appears in Fury's office talking about "I'd like talk to you about the Avengers Initiative."

 

[blalex620]

I am not saying this is a "bad" idea - just wondering why the radical departure from the Panther's actual origin?

Isn't T'Challa being present at his dad's death and maiming Klaw in retaliation rather fundamental to both the Panther's origin and the dynamics between him and Klaw?

I am all for some cross over/cameos with the Marvel Universe - the most obvious and essential seems to be Howard Stark prior to the events in CA:TFA which also serves as a logical method for Klaw to first learn of Vibranium and sets him on his quest for the hidden land of Wakanda.

When the Panther encounters the "modern" world - does it necessarily have to be NY? Would London, Tokyo, etc. also serve the same purpose. I know once he joined the Avengers he was NY based [even held a civilian job as a teacher if I recall - which I did not really like] but I do not remember NY being specific to his development as the Panther.

Seems like the basic story of FF 52-53 would be the logical place to start with a Panther movie. May have to substitute Stark or Fury for Richards & Co. but a lot of the basic elements are all right there.

The Man-Ape trying to subvert the Panther Clan with his White Gorilla Cult does make for a good sub plot, perhaps as a set up in this one and paid off in the sequel.

Actually, I was toying with the idea of having T'Challa make it back just in time to see his father be killed. And having Klaw work with Man-Ape would definitely work. They could do it the way A: EMH did it. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think T'Challa attacked Klaw (I could be mistaken though).

And it wouldn't necessarily have to be New York. It could be other places I just don't know how the logistics of showing him world hoping would work.

I've never read those issues of FF so that's why my story didn't go that route.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Having some action/drama set pieces occur in a more international setting is something I would like to see. Panther taking on foes or tracking them down around the globe fits my idea of him more than him having a showdown in the docks of NYC or something similar. When you think of the stories from the 70's/early 80's with the character, while Spidey and everybody else was protecting NYC, Panther was always swinging round Wakanda or the rest of the world.

 

[bubbadoom]

Since it looks like Marvel is moving its future productions to England with GoG, Avengers 2, and Ant Man it would be easy for parts of BP to take place there rather than elsewhere.

 

[blalex620]

Since it looks like Marvel is moving its future productions to England with GoG, Avengers 2, and Ant Man it would be easy for parts of BP to take place there rather than elsewhere.

That would make sense. Though I chose NYC because that's the easiest place to do a cameo with other heroes or characters but I'm sure they could fit the odd reference or two into England.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's pretty amazing what the Bond people do with set work ect. to make it seem that there is all this on location shooting (which they do). Listening to the commentary for SKYFALL they talk about how so many sections of the film, even the intricate action scenes were done in studio. I would love a film where BP travels the world tracking his enemies to locales all over, but I know that kind of location shooting costs $.

 

[DrCosmic]

I don't think on location shooting is always all that necessary. Cities can double as other cities, as long as you're not trying to do extensive outside scenes. The globetrotting might be pretty awesome... another way to set T'Challa apart. Another way to do globetrotting without spending a lot of money actually doing it is to do non-urban areas. You can do a desert scene anywhere. You can do a mountain scene anywhere.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Here's a thought I have had for a couple of days. In the MCU there is not a lot of love shown to the secret identity trope of superhero fiction. Does any body have a "secret ID" in the MCU? Well maybe this could be played with in a BP film? If Wakanda is this mystery to be solved by the outside world, who is to say how much the rest of the planet really knows about it and it's government. Maybe a solo figure calling himself The Black Panther has been engaging criminals, terrorists and the intelligence agencies of countries all over? One week he is seen battling in Mexico against some cartel type who has acquired some Vibranium weapons of some kind? (Or maybe some mafia type just plated some jewelry for one of his honey's and the Panther comes to collect/destroy it?) Next week a military convoy in the Jungles of south asia is ambushed by this same mystery man. A G-12 type summit is crashed and some figure on the world stage gets roughed up by the Panther to extract information. All the while no one makes a connection in the film to T'challa/Wakanda until BP unmasks himself or is forced to do so through narrative contrivance.