Fantastic Four reborn! - - - - - - - Part 16

[Destructus86]

Wouldn't it be in Fox's best interest to hand over partial rights to the FF to Marvel? Meaning...Marvel has full creative control over the characters but Fox retains enough of the rights to share in a percentage of the gain?

Or is that not something that is done?

 

[Donut]

That is something not done. Its all or nothing & besides they hate each other 2 much anyway

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Nope not at all, its sad that he passed but whether he lived or died It doesnt make a difference about this movie. Why would it? The production didn't all of the sudden get better or worse, he didn't die performing some daring stunt for the movie or anything like that. I still dont like what ive seen leaked, dont like the cast, dont like fox, and barley like the director. So no it doesn't change it at all. It has no reason to change it.

Edit: Looks like his post got deleted. My point still remains.

 

[Dark Raven]

Now that someone died.. does it help you guys not hate the movie as much?

What's one got to do with the other? Yes, it's a tragedy he died, but it's not like he was in charge of casting the actors or directed the movie or is in charge of marketing or dealing with the IP rights. Even if he were, are you saying that, just because he died, suddenly all the crap that is associated with this production is expected to be overlooked?

If a builder is contracted to work on your house and he does an extremely shoddy job, leaving your house in ruins, creating more problems than were there before and causing it to be a money pit, and then he subsequently dies, does that suddenly make the standard of work acceptable?

 

[C. Lee]

The quickest way to get perma banned is to be a little internet smartass about real people who have passed away....I really really suggest people think about this before they make another post.

Maybe some people will read it now.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Even in The Shield show they have avoided using the term when it would have been apt. Co-incidently for a character born with pyro-kinetic powers (he called himself 'Scorch').

While I would argue that it was ambiguous, they never said he was born with his powers. In fact, the stated origin story was that a nuclear power plant burned down (using the classic radiation + fire = fire powers Marvel logic).

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Wouldn't it be in Fox's best interest to hand over partial rights to the FF to Marvel?

I'm no mathematician but it'd be of course in the best interest of any studio to keep 100% of a property than to give away part.

How would going from profiting 100% of a movie franchise to less than 100% be in the best interest?

How is less better?

 

[Dasher10]

Wouldn't it be in Fox's best interest to hand over partial rights to the FF to Marvel? Meaning...Marvel has full creative control over the characters but Fox retains enough of the rights to share in a percentage of the gain?

Or is that not something that is done?

Fox only owns the live action rights to the FF and merchandise related to live action adaptations. Comics and animation and all merch related to those belong to Marvel. Fox only sees a profit in relation to ticket sales and nothing else. Fox has no incentive to lose anything more.

And Marvel owns the toy lines so when it comes to promoting the film, the merchandise will only tie into the comics so Fox won't see a cent of any merch revenue to offset marketing costs since Marvel owns the toy rights.

So Fox deciding to give a higher percentage of ticket sales to Marvel is absolute suicide and I fail to see what Fox would have to gain from it when Marvel already takes around a 3-5% cut anyway.

The reality is that if this film bombs, Marvel gets the rights sold back to them for several billion so Marvel can own a damaged brand. If it succeeds, Fox holds onto the rights. So no matter what happens, Marvel will lose because of this film and Fox will win.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I really have a hard time believing f4 are worth several billion.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I really have a hard time believing f4 are worth several billion.

Not even close. Marvel would never pay that. Fox would have to include X-Men in that deal, and I'm not sure Marvel would be interested even then.

 

[regnak]

Didn't the Terminator rights get sold for $30 something million? I think I saw that on the Misc Films board somewhere. The FF having been less successful with their last movie would be worth less.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Wouldn't it be in Fox's best interest to hand over partial rights to the FF to Marvel? Meaning...Marvel has full creative control over the characters but Fox retains enough of the rights to share in a percentage of the gain?

Or is that not something that is done?

probably, a incredible hulk situation with paramount/universal would likely be the best way for FOX to actually make money off these rights

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I was thinking the same thing ^

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I think in Fox's hands this is a $200 million film tops and in Marvel's hands it's a potential $600 million plus, so it would make sense for Fox to make a deal.

HOWEVER, Marvel probably didn't offer them any cash because they hoped they'd get the rights back free and clear and they wouldn't have offered any percentage for the same reason. At this point, they might reconsider, but it's too late and the negotiation process will have to start over again in a year and a half.

 

[the gael]

I think in Fox's hands this is a $200 million film tops and in Marvel's hands it's a potential $600 million plus, so it would make sense for Fox to make a deal.

HOWEVER, Marvel probably didn't offer them any cash because they hoped they'd get the rights back free and clear and they wouldn't have offered any percentage for the same reason. At this point, they might reconsider, but it's too late and the negotiation process will have to start over again in a year and a half.

You're probably right. I guess that, from the beginning, Fox tried to attract Marvel attention and force them to open the negociations (since Fox can't say "Hello Marvel, we know that you want the FF. We don't want it anymore, so we can sell it to you. Oh, yes, if we don't produce the movie in 2015, you will have the right for free, but whatever..." So Marvel has to do "the first step") but Marvel (who knew of the deadline and just gained Daredevil for free) never did this "first step" (and they were right)

I'm pretty sure that this movie is more of a Roger Corman attempt than we thought. The lack of budget, the lack of any kind of promotion... Of course, the very low budget protect them from any big loss (because the movie will bomb and they know it), but I'm more and more sure that it is also for another reason.

I really doubt more and more that they really want to release the thing in theaters. I'm pretty sure that, once the movie is finished, they will use the "Marvel as executive Producer" clause from the contract to "send them a message" (the finished product)

If the movie is as bad, lame and stupid as it seems, then Fox has just to "wait" for a Marvel reaction. I'm sure that Fox will do something like that to force Marvel into negociation "We will diffuse that in theater. Yes, we know, it's bad, and the franchise will be damaged... but we may find an agreement. If you paid us the price of the production (which won't be over 30 or 40 millions $, so that was, for me, the main reason of the low budget. If the budget is too high (100 millions, for exemple), Marvel won't pay and / or, it will diminish the profit) + 200, 300 or 400 millions, we just have to find an agreement)"

So the planned ending, for Fox, is the Corman one (rights bought again by Marvel and movie destroyed and never shown in theater)

I'm not sure that Marvel will do it. Fox has no options, but Marvel have so much options (doing what Fox expect, negociating, in 2020, the right with the rights for starwars film 1, doing nothing and see if Fox will abandon in 7 years or sooner,...)

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You're probably right. I guess that, from the beginning, Fox tried to attract Marvel attention and force them to open the negociations (since Fox can't say "Hello Marvel, we know that you want the FF. We don't want it anymore, so we can sell it to you. Oh, yes, if we don't produce the movie in 2015, you will have the right for free, but whatever..." So Marvel has to do "the first step") but Marvel (who knew of the deadline and just gained Daredevil for free) never did this "first step" (and they were right)

I'm pretty sure that this movie is more of a Roger Corman attempt than we thought. The lack of budget, the lack of any kind of promotion... Of course, the very low budget protect them from any big loss (because the movie will bomb and they know it), but I'm more and more sure that it is also for another reason.

I really doubt more and more that they really want to release the thing in theaters. I'm pretty sure that, once the movie is finished, they will use the "Marvel as executive Producer" clause from the contract to "send them a message" (the finished product)

If the movie is as bad, lame and stupid as it seems, then Fox has just to "wait" for a Marvel reaction. I'm sure that Fox will do something like that to force Marvel into negociation "We will diffuse that in theater. Yes, we know, it's bad, and the franchise will be damaged... but we may find an agreement. If you paid us the price of the production (which won't be over 30 or 40 millions $, so that was, for me, the main reason of the low budget. If the budget is too high (100 millions, for exemple), Marvel won't pay and / or, it will diminish the profit) + 200, 300 or 400 millions, we just have to find an agreement)"

So the planned ending, for Fox, is the Corman one (rights bought again by Marvel and movie destroyed and never shown in theater)

I'm not sure that Marvel will do it. Fox has no options, but Marvel have so much options (doing what Fox expect, negociating, in 2020, the right with the rights for starwars film 1, doing nothing and see if Fox will abandon in 7 years or sooner,...)

When people were calling this a 'rights grab' six months ago, I didn't really buy it. "Why would they want to hold on to the rights for a property they don't care about? If they want the rights, they must want to make a proper film at some point. So why not just make that proper film now?"

That was my thinking at the time, and that led me to dismiss the idea of a simple 'rights grab'. I didn't like the creative direction they seemed to be going, but I believed they intended to make a real film.

But since that time, we have seen more and more evidence that they don't take this film seriously and seem to be investing next to nothing in it.

Now I'm starting to think it's more complex than I originally thought. I don't think they want to make a proper film. They do want the rights, but not to eventually make a great film but rather to still try to get a big check out of Marvel. And they realize that if they do make a very cheap film, the name recognition of the FF will almost guarantee they'll make money. We need look no further than this forum to see how valuable the FF name is. Despite bad news after bad news, there are people who defend this film and people who say they are looking forward to it.

So I think it's similar to the Corman effort but more complicated.

They're playing with house money. The value of this effort is not based on the director or script-writer or stars or other elements that typically provide value to a film. The value of this particular film is the name and only the name. Fox realizes that they can make the kind of weak film they seem to be making and still make money off it because, as MBJ says: "They'll see it anyway."

Fox has absolutely nothing to lose. They'll make a dirt-cheap film. Profit from it because the name has enough value to bring people into theaters, and retain the rights for 7 years to either make another film or try to get something out of Marvel.

They're not trying to make a bad film. They're just spending so little that they're not putting any real effort into making a good film - which was exactly what happened with Corman. Corman wasn't a 'bad' film-maker. He was very successful at making the kind of films he made. He just made cheap films. Josh Trank also specializes in cheap films (Chronicle was a $12 million film. In today's world, that budget is pretty close to what Corman's budget would have been in his day). All the actors are cheap actors. All evidence points to the production being a cheap production. Film-making is a little different today than it was in Corman's time, but someone would have a hard time realistically drawing sharp contrasts between Corman's effort when he did it and what is known of this production now. The people making this film think they're making a real film just like those making the Corman film thought they were making a real film at the time.

I think that's the real situation at this point. Similar to the Corman film but with a few twists and modernizations.

 

[wobbly]

Didn't the Terminator rights get sold for $30 something million? I think I saw that on the Misc Films board somewhere. The FF having been less successful with their last movie would be worth less.

I think people look at the $4 billion Star Wars deal and start thinking crazy numbers for other properties. FF is not worth $1 billion, never mind a few. Not even close. What people forget is Disney didn't just buy Star Wars, they bought Lucasfilms and all that goes with it (The Indiana Jones rights and one of the top FX houses around in ILM too).

So that deal was a very different beast to any single IP that might be up for grabs. They bought a whole studio, the rights to anything they have made, and an FX house, not just Star Wars.

So what would the FF be worth?

Well, other guesses I've seen thrown about are based on the gross the previous flicks earned. But these fail to consider that the gross of a franchise is not how much the studio really gets from it. At least half that total for a closer number of the real money they see, then take off production costs from that = true net profit (or loss as the case may be).

Then consider anyone buying the franchise has to up the money for any new film from their own pockets too. So even the idea a franchise should cost anything close to what the studio holding it might earn from total box office receipts (if they were to make it) is basically a false one.

With the FF I'd think of it like a house that could be worth $1 million in the market, but it's in an unfinished state so whoever is buying it has to spend half that again to fix the thing up to market value. That buyer is obviously not gonna spend the full $1mil market value, then another $500K, to get a return of $1 mil.

If Terminator sold for $30mil, that gives you an idea of what FF is really worth as a commodity in the market. That Fox doesn't have control of any merch rights for them as well is something to devalue it further.

Would Fox accept anything in the $30 mil region? Unlikely, but as property for sale it isn't really worth more that that (imo).

 

[Dark Raven]

I was wondering: if teenagers come into this thread or the Keep Hopes Alive thread, do they find it boring at all? Half the time, at its heart, it's more about IP law and business than about comics itself.

Or does that conversation still interest the much younger posters? I'm interested to know.

 

[wobbly]

I was wondering: if teenagers come into this thread or the Keep Hopes Alive thread, do they find it boring at all? Half the time, at its heart, it's more about IP law and business than about comics itself.

Or does that conversation still interest the much younger posters? I'm interested to know.

I'm an older guy so I don't mind it, lol

Shows what a news drought we are in though that such matters are really the main things that are being talked about atm.

I'd guess the younger posters (or any posters) who are not interested in all this stuff just wait until there's something from the film itself to talk about.

 

[SpideyFan866]

I think in Fox's hands this is a $200 million film tops and in Marvel's hands it's a potential $600 million plus, so it would make sense for Fox to make a deal.

HOWEVER, Marvel probably didn't offer them any cash because they hoped they'd get the rights back free and clear and they wouldn't have offered any percentage for the same reason. At this point, they might reconsider, but it's too late and the negotiation process will have to start over again in a year and a half.

I think Marvel was well aware of what they were doing.

Before this production, and well into it, Fox made it abundantly clear (not by action, but inaction) that they don't care about the Fantastic Four franchise. At least, not enough to let it stand on it's own two legs.

Hell, they waited until the VERY last minute to start production on a reboot, in hopes of pawning it off on Marvel for a large fee. And that was only after they attempted and failed (through the legal system) to start a shared universe with it (again, showing they wouldn't want it just on its own).


So that said, Marvel knew/knows exactly what the franchise is currently worth (in film and the comics). And let's face it..... it's not worth NEARLY as much as Fox would demand for it (or at least would've to begin wtih). And after the new film, its value will probably be even lower.


So yeah, they didn't buy into what Fox wanted, and probably for the better. They probably get the rights back for much less than originally proposed. OR, they might get them back for free if Fox is desperate enough to drop the series (which they probably are since they can't create a shared universe with X-Men).

 

[Zarex]

So what would the FF be worth?

Well, other guesses I've seen thrown about are based on the gross the previous flicks earned. But these fail to consider that the gross of a franchise is not how much the studio really gets from it. At least half that total for a closer number of the real money they see, then take off production costs from that = true net profit (or loss as the case may be).

Then consider anyone buying the franchise has to up the money for any new film from their own pockets too. So even the idea a franchise should cost anything close to what the studio holding it might earn from total box office receipts (if they were to make it) is basically a false one.

With the FF I'd think of it like a house that could be worth $1 million in the market, but it's in an unfinished state so whoever is buying it has to spend half that again to fix the thing up to market value. That buyer is obviously not gonna spend the full $1mil market value, then another $500K, to get a return of $1 mil.

If Terminator sold for $30mil, that gives you an idea of what FF is really worth as a commodity in the market. That Fox doesn't have control of any merch rights for them as well is something to devalue it further.

Would Fox accept anything in the $30 mil region? Unlikely, but as property for sale it isn't really worth more that that (imo).

As a looongtime FF fan, I'd say that the FF were worth whatever FOX is asking for - A quarter of a billion? Pay it, you cheap bastards! - but realistically, Marvel would be foolish to part with anything other than token compensation. Doom and the Surfer are A-list characters, but whose to say that Kang and Adam Warlock won't be terrific replacements? The one scene of Celestial destruction in GOTG made me think "Galactus who?"

And paying anything more than a pittance for the FF character family would put the reboot in a very difficult financial standing. Look at Superman Returns, which was saddled with "Superman: Flyby" and "Superman Lives" production costs to the point that the production budget was swollen by at least 35% to $270 million. If Marvel pays 9 figures for the rights, the FF reboot would need to be a GOTG type hit to be profitable.

So does Marvel pay anything to FOX for the FF family? Or do they greenlight films that aren't saddled with additional rights costs or the FFs bad cinematic reputation - which looks to be declining even more with Trank's FFINO. Unfortunately for fans of the classic team, it looks like Marvel has already turned the page.

 

[wobbly]

As a looongtime FF fan, I'd say that the FF were worth whatever FOX is asking for - A quarter of a billion? Pay it, you cheap bastards! - but realistically, Marvel would be foolish to part with anything other than token compensation. Doom and the Surfer are A-list characters, but whose to say that Kang and Adam Warlock won't be terrific replacements? The one scene of Sentinel destruction in GOTG made me think "Galactus who?"

And paying anything more than a pittance for the FF character family would put the reboot in a very difficult financial standing. Look at Superman Returns, which was saddled with "Superman: Flyby" and "Superman Lives" production costs to the point that the production budget was swollen by at least 35% to $270 million. If Marvel pays 9 figures for the rights, the FF reboot would need to be a GOTG type hit to be profitable.

So does Marvel pay anything to FOX for the FF family? Or do they greenlight films that aren't saddled with additional rights costs or the FFs bad cinematic reputation - which looks to be declining even more with Trank's FFINO. Unfortunately for fans of the classic team, it looks like Marvel has already turned the page.

Yeah, as an old time fan I'd want Marvel/Disney to do whatever they could to get the FF back. If that meant paying over the top for them so be it... As a fan.

But from a business pov I know and accept they cannot justify it. They have shareholders to account to at the end of the day and the bottom line there is always money.

All they'd look at is that if Marvel can go all cosmic and turn relative unknowns into a huge hit, why on earth are they paying silly money for the FF?

It sucks for us old school FF fans, but like you said, Marvel have already turned the page on this one: They have gone full on cosmic with GOTG, and didn't need the FF, Galactus & co, to pull it off.

As for the future, what happens next is all up to Fox one way or another. Marvel have moved on regardless, and done it very well too I might add.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think eventually, Marvel might have to look at FF the way one might look at DC characters. Would it be nice if Marvel somehow owned Superman or Batman? Of course, and they would be additional money makers. But Marvel have gotten along fine without them and they have never been part of Marvel or even a possibility anyway. While FF is part of Marvel, unfortunately they could probably get along fine without the likes of the FF, Doom, Surfer and Galactus, and could almost as easily view them as properties of another company who are simply off limits to them.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Didn't the Terminator rights get sold for $30 something million? I think I saw that on the Misc Films board somewhere. The FF having been less successful with their last movie would be worth less.

I heard something about Cameron getting full control of the rights in 2019

So yeah, they didn't buy into what Fox wanted, and probably for the better. They probably get the rights back for much less than originally proposed. OR, they might get them back for free if Fox is desperate enough to drop the series (which they probably are since they can't create a shared universe with X-Men).

There is no way Fox will just hand them back for nothing, that's not good business. They'll hold onto them for the allotted time and then allow them to revert but not before

 

[Wheels]

Marvel would still get them back without paying FOX a dime. Hence the word "free" No way FOX takes another chance on FF if this disappoints.