Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 2

[Matt]

Well, wasn't the fact that Joffrey had blond hair the whole of Ned's evidence that he wasn't Robert's? If hair color is the sole way of determining parents in Westeros, black hair may be all the evidence that Cersei needs.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Not entirely. Lysa Arryn sent that letter that Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters. Ned took the position as Hand to investigate Arryn's murder and protect Robert. He figured out all of Robert's bastards had their father's hair and eyes (it's cut from the show but Robert had a bastard when they were growing up in the Eyrie. Ned sees that the baby the prostitute has and realizes she looked just like that bastard). Then he puts all the clues together and figures it out. Stannis was working with Jon Arryn on this which is why he fled to Dragonstone before Ned arrived at King's Landing.

 

[DACrowe]

It's easy when you marry the only daughter of the lord who has the most bannermen.

Renly also assembles an army of young, ambitious bannermen who have never fought a war. They treat it as a game and adventure. Renly is deep in the closet, so to most he is just a very outgoing and charismatic young man who knows how to bring happiness to the other young lords. Stannis is a stern, stoic and cold-hearted man in comparison. So couple that with Renly having control of Storm's End (the home of the Baratheon House) and all its riches to the South while Stannis is in semi-exile on Dragonstone and Renly then marries the daughter of the second richest family in Westros (the Tyrells), who command almost as many bannermen as the Starks....

Renly is ideally placed to win. Or so it would seem.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Renly may have the army to win the throne but he's as capable as Robert when it comes to keeping himself on it. He may have a "honeymoon" period where there's peace but he'd end up becoming a pawn and discarded as Robert was. The only way one can rule this world is by being as ruthless as Stannis. That's why my money is on him when it comes to the 5 kings.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Renly may have the army to win the throne but he's as capable as Robert when it comes to keeping himself on it. He may have a "honeymoon" period where there's peace but he'd end up becoming a pawn and discarded as Robert was. The only way one can rule this world is by being as ruthless as Stannis. That's why my money is on him when it comes to the 5 kings.

My money is on Rickon, but Stannis is a close second.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I don't think Rickon is in the ring for the Iron Throne and I suspect the whole "King in the North" thing is only so long as a Lannister incest spawn reigns.

 

[DACrowe]

I think Renly would be better than Stannis in that people would follow him while if Stannis ever gets the Iron Throne, he will only keep it through fear and violence. Renly is a bit wishy-washy and has rose colored glasses on both war and ruling, but he seems to have a better idea of what to do with the power of the kingdom than either the Lannisters or Stannis do who merely want it because they believe it to be theirs.

Anyway, my money on who will win when all the snow (heh) is settled is a union between the North and South by the marriage of Jon Stark and Daenerys Targaryen. After all the Targaryen are big on incest. Hint hint.

That's my prediction.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Stannis being a crazy cultist might turn people off in droves even though he is quite heroic in certain situations. I see it like when Christianity was spreading, some resisted, some converted.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Both Stannis and Renly would be flawed rulers. They're both really interesting because they're the embodiments of completely opposite beliefs. Renly is a utilitarian who believes it is better to be loved while Stannis is a deontologist who would rather be feared. I just think Stannis has a better chance of surviving, mostly because the minute he sits on the throne he'll execute most of his enemies for treason.

But I do agree that outside of the 5 kings we'll have this season, the long term winners are either Jon or Dany.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Stannis being a crazy cultist might turn people off in droves even though he is quite heroic in certain situations. I see it like when Christianity was spreading, some resisted, some converted.

I saw some parallels there. Though really, how big of a role does religion play in this story? It's not like they have a Vatican like Medieval Europe had.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

They actually do have a Vatican-type establishment. The Great Sept of the Baelor where Ned was executed is basically their St. Peter's Basilica. They have a High Septon who is like a Pope. Religion will be mentioned more, it plays a bigger role during A Feast for Crows.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yeah the faith of the seven does become more militant as the story progresses.

I think the idea of Jon or Dany on the Iron Throne (let alone married to each other) is just wishful thinking. Realistically GRRM isn't going to have a happily ever after situation here, he's constantly turned the tropes of fantasy stories on it's head. The ending will probably something extremely bittersweet.

 

[Matt]

Both Stannis and Renly would be flawed rulers. They're both really interesting because they're the embodiments of completely opposite beliefs. Renly is a utilitarian who believes it is better to be loved while Stannis is a deontologist who would rather be feared. I just think Stannis has a better chance of surviving, mostly because the minute he sits on the throne he'll execute most of his enemies for treason.

But I do agree that outside of the 5 kings we'll have this season, the long term winners are either Jon or Dany.

A deontologist wouldn't rule through fear or execute his opponents after winning as the end never justifies the means in deontology.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

A deontologist wouldn't rule through fear or execute his opponents after winning as the end never justifies the means in deontology.

It's been a couple years since I took philosophy but from what I recall, a deontologist was motivated by duty which is basically Stannis. In his mind, those who did not support his claim are guilt of treason and it is his duty to carry out justice and punish them (ie execute them). The whole "rather be feared than loved" is also due to his personality, he has no compassion. He doesn't really have a relationship with his wife and he probably doesn't love his daughter more than he's obligated to.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Stannis doesn't strike me as power mad, so much as royally pissed off. From what I've read, he was never given his due.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

That is definitely true. The Baratheon boys lost their parents when they were young. Robert was sent off to the Eyrie to be fostered by Jon Arryn while Stannis stayed in Storm's End with Renly. He never had a father or older brother to look up to whereas Robert had Jon Arryn and replaced Stannis as a brother with Ned. Meanwhile, Renly idolized Robert growing up even though Stannis was the one with him. So he has a poor relationship with both of his brothers.

During Robert's Rebellion, he held Storm's End from a siege for almost a year (and nearly starved to death doing so). The siege is lifted when Ned arrives with his forces. After Robert took the throne, he made Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone and Renly the Lord of Storm's End. Stannis felt insulted by this since not only did he hold their ancestral home from a siege, but it was his right to inherit it, not Renly's.

He finds out about Robert's alleged children, but doesn't tell Robert since he probably wouldn't believe him and he really owes nothing to Robert. He doesn't bat an eye when Ned loses his head because he doesn't feel he owes anything to Ned, the man who Robert replaced him with.

Light spoilers, mostly my interpretation.

Spoiler

I think Stannis is offended most by Robb not allying with him. Joffrey is obviously a Lannister spawn so he has to go. Renly basically committed the biggest crime, he's his younger brother who is trying to steal his crown, his home (the Stormlands), and his men. For this, he has to punish Renly for it. With Robb, they were a match for allies. Stannis has the ships and military leadership, Robb the men and charisma. But rather than support the man who his father basically died for, Robb crowns himself a King and tries to steal half of the kingdom. There's a scene where he performs a ritual with Melisandre where he basically curses the other 4 kings. When he gets to Robb, he sort of hesitates. He doesn't want to consider Robb an enemy, but he lives in a world of black and white. He's left with no option, Robb is a rebel and must be punished for his treason.

This is why I really like the character. His entire life he never really got what he deserved. Now, the most powerful position in Westeros is rightfully his and he will not stop until he has it.

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah the faith of the seven does become more militant as the story progresses.

I think the idea of Jon or Dany on the Iron Throne (let alone married to each other) is just wishful thinking. Realistically GRRM isn't going to have a happily ever after situation here, he's constantly turned the tropes of fantasy stories on it's head. The ending will probably something extremely bittersweet.

I think a happy ending died with Ned. I think even a bittersweet ending pretty much fades out after the third book. But there has to be something that ends all the chaos in Westros beyond just the common threat of Winter. I don't think, in my theory, Jon and Dany are going to have to like each other a l to. But out of practical needs, there may be some sort of union to be formed.

For anything "happy" I hope that Sansa gets home someday and that [blackout]Arya can reclaim her name, even if she never returns to Winterfell, and ends Walder Frey's existence.[/blackout]

Those are about as happy a thing one can hope for.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

All I want

Spoiler

Spoilers, considered yourself warned

Spoiler

Last chance

Spoiler

Is for the Stark children, Jon included, to know that each of them is still alive. Assuming they are still alive at the end. I think Dany will probably win the Iron Throne but end up more like Aerys than Rhaegar.

 

[DACrowe]

It's been a couple years since I took philosophy but from what I recall, a deontologist was motivated by duty which is basically Stannis. In his mind, those who did not support his claim are guilt of treason and it is his duty to carry out justice and punish them (ie execute them). The whole "rather be feared than loved" is also due to his personality, he has no compassion. He doesn't really have a relationship with his wife and he probably doesn't love his daughter more than he's obligated to.

A man of strict absolutist honor [blackout]doesn't murder his brother with dark magic spurred from his impregnating a priestess who is not his wife.[/blackout]

Just saying.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

A man of strict absolutist honor [blackout]doesn't murder his brother with dark magic spurred from his impregnating a priestess who is not his wife.[/blackout]

Just saying.

[blackout]I refuse to accept Stannis boning Melisandre as book canon[/blackout]

 

[Thundercrack85]

In fairness,

Spoiler

Stannis does show reluctance about being unfaithful to his wife. That's rare in this world.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

lulz

Spoiler

IMO, Stannis is a fantastic character & would have made a MUCH better King that that twit Renly. In the source material especially, Renly is revealed to be an even more shallow version of Robert, minus any sort of military knowledge or actual battlefield skills.

Renly is a Tourney Knight, a charismatic figure, & would have driven the Seven Kingdoms into the ground faster than Robert.

Stannis inspired loyalty but not nearly as much so as either of his brothers but he's twice the commander of either of them with far more intelligence. He's just, he's fair, & under his rule, the Seven Kingdoms would likely have expanded their borders even further & refilled the Royal treasury. At no point was it ever said that the Conqueror was a nice or just guy, he was simply a great military mind with Dragon backing, so don't tell me Stannis would be incapable of holding the Throne.

If Stannis had been given his due, Daenerys or Prince Aegon would have found a very chilling reception.

Obviously there's a base of people that would voluntarily follow him, Davos lost his finger joints & respected him for the justness of the ruling.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think a happy ending died with Ned. I think even a bittersweet ending pretty much fades out after the third book. But there has to be something that ends all the chaos in Westros beyond just the common threat of Winter. I don't think, in my theory, Jon and Dany are going to have to like each other a l to. But out of practical needs, there may be some sort of union to be formed.

For anything "happy" I hope that Sansa gets home someday and that [blackout]Arya can reclaim her name, even if she never returns to Winterfell, and ends Walder Frey's existence.[/blackout]

Those are about as happy a thing one can hope for.

Well when the White Walkers come calling the Iron Throne looses its value, in the end it'll be about survival rather than power. Jon, if his is indeed the song of Ice and Fire will probably be the one to put them down, but what that means for his fate I don't know. Dany seems to be doomed IMO
I don't think house Targaryen will survive the winter to be honest.

 

[DACrowe]

Well when the White Walkers come calling the Iron Throne looses its value, in the end it'll be about survival rather than power.

Have you seen Dr. Strangelove? It's that wonderfully eccentric Kubrick film about the Cold War. At the end of the movie, the hapless POTUS and his joint chiefs have failed to prevent a rogue crew from nuking Russia. In preparing for the massive loss of life and end of civilization that is nuclear war they and the crazy titular character make a plan to live in caves for generation(s) in the Rocky Mountains where men will be forced to repopulate the US in the future with multiple wives. But then one general has a terrifying notion. What if the Soviets also have a cave to hide in for a hundred years and are stock piling nuclear missiles to fire on them when their descendants come out? Well, they better start building some more bombs to make sure that when humans reclaim the nuclear wasteland in the future, they better be Americans.

My point of that is as long as there is a throne and the "shadow" it casts, there will be people fighting over it. Fighting until a claim or two is recognized by all. Civilization-threatening walking dead? Pssst. Just another annoyance the claimants will have to deal with in the coming years.

 

[Raiden]

Extremely impressed by season 2's debut. Now Cersei finally realized that she has raised a monster, and I think that will prompt her to join forces with her brother Tyrion although against King Joffery's ruthlessness they'll still be at a disadvantage. It seems to me that Tyrion's decision to keep the ****e with him will hurt him in the long run, once his enemies found out about her existence. Btw, Stannis is an extremely cruel fellow from the looks of it, and judging from the discussions about him, I think he's going to cast a long shadow in the second season.

Nice to see Littlefinger got really afraid for probably the very first time.