Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 5

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Eh. I think it's working so far. I mean, I certainly think it can be done. Heroes did it well...to be fair it did it well for one season. (Well, maybe two, S4 wasn't that bad), but I think they're juggling the characters quite well. I enjoy it anways.

Bear in mind that Season 1 (the season everyone seems to agree was done well while handling multiple POVs), all the different characters and subplots were interrelated - building towards a common goal from the get go and coming together in time for the first season finale.

Also, Heroes had a great deal fewer characters. In season 1, there were 20 main characters across 3-5 locations at any given time. This exploded into 25 characters across 9 locations ~ King's Landing, Daenerys, Jon's travels North of the Wall, Sam and the rest of the Night Watch at North of the Wall, Robb's camp, Arya's travels and stint at Harrenhall, Pyke, Stannis camp and Renly's camp. Of course, [blackout]Renly was killed[/blackout] before Jon and Sam separated, that still leaves up to 8 locations at any given point. That's nearly twice as many locations to feature per episode - hence, why Season 1 felt less jumpy.
 
Bear in mind that Season 1 (the season everyone seems to agree was done well while handling multiple POVs), all the different characters and subplots were interrelated - building towards a common goal from the get go and coming together in time for the first season finale.

Also, Heroes had a great deal fewer characters. In season 1, there were 20 main characters across 3-5 locations at any given time. This exploded into 25 characters across 9 locations ~ King's Landing, Daenerys, Jon's travels North of the Wall, Sam and the rest of the Night Watch at North of the Wall, Robb's camp, Arya's travels and stint at Harrenhall, Pyke, Stannis camp and Renly's camp. Of course, [blackout]Renly was killed[/blackout] before Jon and Sam separated, that still leaves up to 8 locations at any given point. That's nearly twice as many locations to feature per episode - hence, why Season 1 felt less jumpy.

It was less jumpy. But I find I don't mind the jumpy nature of S2. It really feels like the novel brought to life, and I enjoy that aspect of it. Also, I like it because it keeps me wanting to see more. I have favorite story lines, but I like each story line. And they all have a hook that keeps you wanting more before they cut to another story. I like that tatic.
 
It was less jumpy. But I find I don't mind the jumpy nature of S2. It really feels like the novel brought to life, and I enjoy that aspect of it. Also, I like it because it keeps me wanting to see more. I have favorite story lines, but I like each story line. And they all have a hook that keeps you wanting more before they cut to another story. I like that tatic.

Fair enough. Liking/Disliking something is entirely subjective and everyone is entitled to their opinion - as long as the thinking behind it is realistic (e.g. I would question a person's sanity if she dismissed the show as standard fantasy shlock due to it having dwarves).

That said, I find cliffhangers and plot twists cheap tricks to draw the viewers' interest. If the story(line) was genuinely interesting, the viewers' interest would still be kept without resorting to shock tactics. And like every literary device, its fine and very useful when used appropriately. However, GOT (especially season 2) is becoming over-reliant on it to the point of desensitisation and it becomes predictable. We might not know what the twist may be but we certainly know one will be coming.
 
Cliff hangers is a time tested tactic. The books have them in droves. It's just a part of story telling, especially one with so many narratives, there's hardly a way to get around outside of sticking with one narrative until its complete, which would be extremely ill advised.
 
Cliff hangers is a time tested tactic. The books have them in droves. It's just a part of story telling, especially one with so many narratives, there's hardly a way to get around outside of sticking with one narrative until its complete, which would be extremely ill advised.

This is not - and should never be used - as an excuse. If anything, it just means that the same criticism can be levelled against the book as well.

And yes, a cliffhanger is a common and 'time tested' tool in storytelling. Hence, my saying that it is "fine and useful when used appropriately", with the key word there being 'appropriately'. However, it is just that - a tool; one of many at a storyteller's disposal. And much like the MacGuffin and flashbacks, they can be misused, abused and overused. In this case, I feel GOT is slipping into this as it heavily relies on cliffhangers to maintain drama.
 
...and yet you completely ignore the point that with so many characters and narratives going on, it's impossible not to use cliff hangers at one point or another. And if you think that the only drama is coming from being left hanging, you must not be paying attention the the show, lol. There's just too much going on to wait for each narrative to be resolved before moving onto the next. I can see how some people might find it frustrating, but for a show as involved as this, I personally don't find it to be a weakness.
 
...and yet you completely ignore the point that with so many characters and narratives going on, it's impossible not to use cliff hangers at one point or another. And if you think that the only drama is coming from being left hanging, you must not be paying attention the the show, lol. There's just too much going on to wait for each narrative to be resolved before moving onto the next. I can see how some people might find it frustrating, but for a show as involved as this, I personally don't find it to be a weakness.

Don't think I ever argued for cliffhangers to never be used - just that the show is overusing it to the point of dependence. Yes, it's difficult not to due to the number of characters involved - which suggests that perhaps there are too many characters across too many locations. That there is too much going on at the same time to properly develop the ideas/scenes/situations.
 
It'll be his turn eventually...LOL
 
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Dude, for realsies:

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Oh geez. Too nerdy for words. :(
 
We're on a comic book forum, not really in the position to look down on something for being nerdy.

I wish my political science course was about this series.
 

A friend has this. He's trying to set up a day for a bunch of people to play it (it takes ALL day, apparently). It seems cool, but I've never really been found of games where I literally have to STUDY the rule book in order to play the game.
 
Don't think I ever argued for cliffhangers to never be used - just that the show is overusing it to the point of dependence. Yes, it's difficult not to due to the number of characters involved - which suggests that perhaps there are too many characters across too many locations. That there is too much going on at the same time to properly develop the ideas/scenes/situations.

Well, you have to consider the fact that unlike most TV shows, there is no “story of the week”. This is not a procedural show with a new case and independent story for each episode. Structurally speaking, this is pretty much a massive movie cut into 10 sections. You might prefer TV shows where each episode is an individually contained story, so I can understand you or others being used to weekly conclusions, but because a show does not follow that pattern does not mean its bad, weak, or overly full. And its certainly not due to there being so much going on - one of my all time favorites, Sons of Anarchy does this, and its cast and narratives is half of what GoT is. The story, ideas and characters actually have the chance to breathe in a show like this – their arcs and the overall tale is spread throughout the length of the season, instead of being forced to find some sort of conclusion each week.

And if you think that the show is too full of characters and interweaving stories…you’d probably hate the books. It’s one of the series’ best aspects. The show is as condensed as possible while still doing the books justice.
 
Well, you have to consider the fact that unlike most TV shows, there is no “story of the week”. This is not a procedural show with a new case and independent story for each episode. Structurally speaking, this is pretty much a massive movie cut into 10 sections. You might prefer TV shows where each episode is an individually contained story, so I can understand you or others being used to weekly conclusions, but because a show does not follow that pattern does not mean its bad, weak, or overly full. And its certainly not due to there being so much going on - one of my all time favorites, Sons of Anarchy does this, and its cast and narratives is half of what GoT is. The story, ideas and characters actually have the chance to breathe in a show like this – their arcs and the overall tale is spread throughout the length of the season, instead of being forced to find some sort of conclusion each week.

Sort of. What I prefer is that each episode has an individually contained story (as opposed to being an individually contained story... there's a difference). There should be very good reasons why an episode chooses to start and end where it does and that reason shouldn't simply be 'because we ran out of time'. My view is that a story should have a beginning/exposition that leads to a rising action that leads to the climax followed by a falling action and resolution as below:

Story-Plot-Structure-2ahqdq9.jpg


For a television show, that goes for both - over the course of each season and over the course of each individual episode. On top of that, each episode should be paced to accommodate where the commercial breaks are going to take place. In short, over the course of the entire season, the plot will have multiple mini-peaks (with mini-climaxes for each episode), with the baseline tension gradually rising until reaching the season climax.

Without this, the plot winds up feeling like it is meandering about and directionless. Take Season 1 Heroes for example: although the season was one big story with one episode starting where the last left off, each episode did feature an A-plot that has its own development and climax.


As for the comment that each season is really like a really long movie, then that suggests to me that it isn't very suited to a direct translation when being adapted into television. Different mediums have different requirements and tools for narration and the point of an adaptation is to change it to suit the new medium. For instance, if someone was to try adapting say... Diablo III into a TV show, they would need to change the story a little and not simply have episode after episode of the main character smashing his way through an endless demonic horde.

Indeed, the reviews I've come across for Game of Thrones' 2nd season has mostly praised the technical aspects (sets, costumes, locations, etc), the acting and especially the chemistry and interaction between the actors. Less is being said about the story itself; with criticisms being made against Daenerys' storyline. Which tells me that the show's success is partially in spite of its accurate translation rather than because of it.
 
Oh sh** he dropped some "Figure 1" knowledge on Spider-Who. :o
 
We should have a separate thread for complaining about the show. That's pretty much all that's been discussed here this season. I'm not saying you have to wax poetically about the show but the complaining is just the same thing over and over and basically hijacks the thread.

I just noticed Matt removed that pic of Tyrion sucking on Cersei's boob like that TIME magazine cover. Yeah, I'm done here, especially since there's not much to talk for several months. PM me if you want to discuss anything or have questions but are too afraid to Google it or read the wikia, I do a good job of filtering the spoilers.
 
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