Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 5

[Matt]

Yeah, I didn't think there was any question about Joffrey's motives.

 

[mr. peasant]

The kind of spoiler discussion I hate is what Speedball did. There was no reason to bring that up. I would only ever say, "I can't wait to see the ending of season 4" instead of "I can't wait to see (then list everything that happens)." If a show viewer has a question and wants to know a little more about what will happen to a certain character or about a certain event, I see no harm in answering if it's spoiler tagged.

Alternatively, we could use the PM system.

While it could be argued that the current rules might be somewhat harsh, it's mostly because things got out of hand before. And while some acted responsibly and intelligently by not letting spoilers slip or getting carried away with discussing book material, others weren't. And it's because of the actions of these people that we are needing strict rules to prevent the problem from recurring again (as it has multiple times over the history of this thread).

 

[Speedball]

Whatever aspects of niceness that should have been in Joffrey are in Tommen and Myrcella.
Joffrey is an evil devil child and it's only going to get worse.

 

[Matt]

For a show that so heavily focuses on shades of grey, I am surprised how unrelentingly evil Joffrey is.

On a side note, does he know that he is a product of incest? It doesn't seem too heavily guarded of a secret.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

This site isn't Yahoo Answers.

If it is theory, it is fair game. Just don't give specific clues that are revealed in later books. Just follow the announcement and discuss the show. This isn't hard.

Questions help facilitate discussion which is what this thread is for, no? Besides, until the first sneak peek footage comes out (which was December last year), there isn't much to discuss other than casting news. A lot of them will be characters people don't know much about so I see no harm in asking questions about them.

I still warned people though. It's not like I just listed them without saying that there are book spoilers.

edit- and Thanks for calling me out man, you're just swell.

You put your warning below the spoiler. What you posted is a major plot point of A Dance With Dragons which is completely unnecessary. I'm not going to have your back when you do something I disagree with. So, you're welcome.

For a show that so heavily focuses on shades of grey, I am surprised how unrelentingly evil Joffrey is.

On a side note, does he know that he is a product of incest? It doesn't seem too heavily guarded of a secret.

I think he had a suspicion about it in the premiere when he asked about Robert's bastards. If he had any doubt, I think he's since deluded himself into believing he is the rightful king since everyone around him enforces it.

 

[Speedball]

For a show that so heavily focuses on shades of grey, I am surprised how unrelentingly evil Joffrey is.

On a side note, does he know that he is a product of incest? It doesn't seem too heavily guarded of a secret.

He believes his father is Robert, and will defend it with his pathetic little life.

However... he may have an inkling, but probably is denial and telling himself that Robert is his father so much that it is the truth for him.

 

[mr. peasant]

Just wondering... does anyone else see potential Unfortunate Implications or at least sociopathically hilarious that gay King Renly was essentially killed by his brother's hyper-heterosexuality? Stannis' seed literally spawned an instant shadow assassin through an extramarital affair. t:

Also, at least in the books, Renly's Kingsguard was called the Rainbow Guard. Make of it what you will.

 

[Speedball]

Don't read too much into it, because being a gay man, I didn't. I saw it as one man's quest for power, and the insane lengths he will go to to get it.

In my head, he IS the rightful heir to the throne. Renly was not, and neither is Dany. Dany is a member of the old regime, a regime that was toppled when Jaime killed the king. By all rights, though, Jaime should be the king, but he abdicated his power to Robert.

I was a little disappointed that they weren't called the Rainbow Guard or had the Rainbow cloaks.

 

[Matt]

Questions help facilitate discussion which is what this thread is for, no? Besides, until the first sneak peek footage comes out (which was December last year), there isn't much to discuss other than casting news. A lot of them will be characters people don't know much about so I see no harm in asking questions about them.

Like I said, my rule is whatever book the season is on, is fair game. Season 2 is over, we're in season 3. Book three is fair game. I am not saying for posters to give away the important plot points like the Red Wedding and what not, but yeah, discuss casting, characters, etc. The key here is common sense, I think. Like I said, the announcement isn't nearly as restrictive as some are acting.

I think he had a suspicion about it in the premiere when he asked about Robert's bastards. If he had any doubt, I think he's since deluded himself into believing he is the rightful king since everyone around him enforces it.

I see. Thanks.

 

[Matt]

He believes his father is Robert, and will defend it with his pathetic little life.

However... he may have an inkling, but probably is denial and telling himself that Robert is his father so much that it is the truth for him.

Can the defend it with his pathetic life part come sooner rather than later please? Actually, I'd be sad if Joffrey died. He is a lot of fun to hate.

Just wondering... does anyone else see potential Unfortunate Implications or at least sociopathically hilarious that gay King Renly was essentially killed by his brother's hyper-heterosexuality? Stannis' seed literally spawned an instant shadow assassin through an extramarital affair. t:

Also, at least in the books, Renly's Kingsguard was called the Rainbow Guard. Make of it what you will.

That is quite the theory.

Don't read too much into it, because being a gay man, I didn't. I saw it as one man's quest for power, and the insane lengths he will go to to get it.

In my head, he IS the rightful heir to the throne. Renly was not, and neither is Dany. Dany is a member of the old regime, a regime that was toppled when Jaime killed the king. By all rights, though, Jaime should be the king, but he abdicated his power to Robert.

I was a little disappointed that they weren't called the Rainbow Guard or had the Rainbow cloaks.

I disagree, I see Renly as the legitimate heir because the people supported Renly. But I'm a big social contract theory guy. So in my eyes, the people did not support Stannis, no one wanted Stannis to be king. Therefore the people and Renly had the right to claim the throne. Just as the people, led by Robert had the right to remove the Mad King from the throne.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

10 Best Changes Game of Thrones Made to A Clash of Kings

http://io9.com/5915744/10-best-changes-game-of-thrones-made-to-a-clash-of-kings

 

[Speedball]

Can the defend it with his pathetic life part come sooner rather than later please? Actually, I'd be sad if Joffrey died. He is a lot of fun to hate.

You're just trying to get me in trouble now.

I disagree, I see Renly as the legitimate heir because the people supported Renly. But I'm a big social contract theory guy. So in my eyes, the people did not support Stannis, no one wanted Stannis to be king. Therefore the people and Renly had the right to claim the throne. Just as the people, led by Robert had the right to remove the Mad King from the throne.

I can understand that actually. But he got taken out before we actually got to see Renly fully consolidate his power and strike Kings Landing.

I'm not even saying I want Stannis to be king. I'd love to see him taken out. He's a rough, harsh human being who honestly won't make for a good king.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I disagree, I see Renly as the legitimate heir because the people supported Renly. But I'm a big social contract theory guy. So in my eyes, the people did not support Stannis, no one wanted Stannis to be king. Therefore the people and Renly had the right to claim the throne. Just as the people, led by Robert had the right to remove the Mad King from the throne.

The only people who supported Renly were the lords of the Stormlands (his vassals) and the people of the Reach (only through his marriage to Margaery Tyrell). The Westerlands, Crownlands, and Dorne* supported Joffrey, the North wanted independence with Robb as their king, the Riverlands were divided between support for Robb and Joffrey, the Iron Islands wanted independence, the Vale was neutral, and Stannis had his small amount of support prior to Renly's death.

So if you're going by the rightful king is whoever the people support, there is none. As Jorah Mormont says in the book and show, "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."

*[blackout]Sort of. They have little love for the Lannisters or Baratheons due to Robert's Rebellion.[/blackout]

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Stannis is the rightful heir. The world of Game of Thrones isn't a democracy, so the people's opinions don't matter on who the rightful heir is, which is Stannis.

 

[Speedball]

Exactly.
But it does matter, because the rightful heir to the throne WAS Rhaegar Targaryen, but the people rallied behind Robert after Rhaegar triggered the rebellion in an act I guess I can't mention here.

You might have supreme power, but it's really only while the people let you have it.

 

[DACrowe]

Critics Choice usually gets it right. But they got one thing abundantly wrong....

How the hell did they not nominate Dany's eyebrows for best supporting actress!?!?

Yep. GOT in, BE out.

Just kidding, I think BE should have also been nominated.

 

[Matt]

Yep. GOT in, BE out.

Just kidding, I think BE should have also been nominated.

I was shocked that they included The Good Wife but not Boardwalk Empire. I guess they felt that they had to show the networks some love?

 

[Matt]

You're just trying to get me in trouble now.

I'm not. I swear.

I can understand that actually. But he got taken out before we actually got to see Renly fully consolidate his power and strike Kings Landing.

I'm not even saying I want Stannis to be king. I'd love to see him taken out. He's a rough, harsh human being who honestly won't make for a good king.

Yeah, Stannis seems as bad as Joffrey. He seems to want to be king for no reason other than the fact that he believes he is entitled to it. That doesn't make for a good leader.

The only people who supported Renly were the lords of the Stormlands (his vassals) and the people of the Reach (only through his marriage to Margaery Tyrell). The Westerlands, Crownlands, and Dorne* supported Joffrey, the North wanted independence with Robb as their king, the Riverlands were divided between support for Robb and Joffrey, the Iron Islands wanted independence, the Vale was neutral, and Stannis had his small amount of support prior to Renly's death.

So if you're going by the rightful king is whoever the people support, there is none. As Jorah Mormont says in the book and show, "The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are."

*[blackout]Sort of. They have little love for the Lannisters or Baratheons due to Robert's Rebellion.[/blackout]

It seems to me that Renly was willing to grant the North relative independence and he would be their king in name only (much like Elizabeth is still technically the queen of Canada). Therefore the North and Renly likely would've allied.

I dunno, it just seems to me that Renly was far better qualified to unify the people than Stannis. Plus he had more support than Stannis, my point is that makes his claim just as good (if not better) than that of Stannis who no one really wants to be their king.

Stannis is the rightful heir. The world of Game of Thrones isn't a democracy, so the people's opinions don't matter on who the rightful heir is, which is Stannis.

By your logic Stannis is not the rightful heir, Dany is, because Robert had no right to overthrow the Mad King, even if the people wanted it.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Oh damn, that's actually right.

 

[Clu]

she is the rightful heir, or should say her brother was. stannis is probably most fit to take the crown even if he believes in a fire god.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Stannis is the rightful heir. The world of Game of Thrones isn't a democracy, so the people's opinions don't matter on who the rightful heir is, which is Stannis.

Actually it does. Ask any of the kings executed by the people. You can only be a monarch if people accept you. Renly was right about that. And probably would have become king if it wasn't for Stannis.

 

[Poeman]

Renly would have been the peoples king, probably a great king too
Robert was the negligent king

Eddard Stark would have been a honorable king, who also would have commanded his people's respect.

I recall Stark was the one who broke through and was going to sit on the chair first, but he gave it up to Robert for the cause

 

[Spidey-Bat]

It seems to me that Renly was willing to grant the North relative independence and he would be their king in name only (much like Elizabeth is still technically the queen of Canada). Therefore the North and Renly likely would've allied.

I dunno, it just seems to me that Renly was far better qualified to unify the people than Stannis. Plus he had more support than Stannis, my point is that makes his claim just as good (if not better) than that of Stannis who no one really wants to be their king.

Renly was better at uniting people but not ruling them. He has all of Robert's flaws, he's too trusting and accepting of people. Had he ruled, he would have had people plotting his downfall just like Robert. TV and Book Renly are different, book Renly was much more arrogant. He also never agreed with Cat to an alliance with Robb, he thought he could take King's Landing on his own and implied he would wage war on the North if Robb didn't bend the knee to him.

There is no perfect candidate for king. Stannis would survive longer because he wouldn't put his trust in people who don't deserve it. One of the things Stannis says in the books is that Robert should have scoured his court clean when he took the throne, namely getting rid of Varys and Pycelle. Stannis is the epitome of Lawful Neutral. He may be harsh but he is always just. He's also the only king [BLACKOUT]who knows his title includes "Protector of the Realm."[/BLACKOUT]

By your logic Stannis is not the rightful heir, Dany is, because Robert had no right to overthrow the Mad King, even if the people wanted it.

The Targaryens were defeated and exiled from Westeros, so Stannis is the rightful king.

 

[Poeman]

Targareyans commanded respect...The path of Stannis looks alot like the Mad King.

 

[Thundercrack85]

He has a legitimate claim, and Joffrey isn't Robert's son. His brother tried to usurp his throne. Going by Medieval rules, he's really done nothing wrong.