Game of Thrones - HBO part 2 - Part 7

[Buford The Sly]

So why aren't they handing them over? Are the Bolton's just hanging onto them for the lulz?

Among other things.

Spoiler

Tywin's writing all those letters for a reason.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Robert's rebellion to overthrow the King is fine and all, not honorable in the least because, well, it is not very honorable to rebel against your ruling King right ? But Jamie killing him is bad ? The man killed the mad King who committed atrocities and was about to burn everyone ( if I am correct ) and he is chastised ? As much as I like Ned character, his sense of honor is a big joke. I'm no saying Jamie is a good man far from it but he didn't do worst than Ned and Robert when they rebelled against their King.

 

[Silvermoon]

Robert's rebellion to overthrow the King is fine and all, not honorable in the least because, well, it is not very honorable to rebel against your ruling King right ? But Jamie killing him is bad ? The man killed the mad King who committed atrocities and was about to burn everyone ( if I am correct ) and he is chastised ? As much as I like Ned character, his sense of honor is a big joke. I'm no saying Jamie is a good man far from it but he didn't do worst than Ned and Robert when they rebelled against their King.

(note: I'm not a book reader... well, not completely yet, I'm only on book #2. Just want to preface my comments with that. Also, my brain isn't completely functioning on this fine Wednesday morning, so please forgive me if anything I say doesn't make sense... this work week seriously needs to be over)

Isn't that the thing though, about Jamie finally telling his story is that, at the time that he did the deed he DIDN'T tell anyone the exact details of why he killed The Mad King (possibly other than the blanket reason that he was insane), and so no one else knew that the city was going to burn. So all anyone had then was assumptions which led to them making judgements that weren't necessarily accurate (I can understand why he might not have wanted to tell Ned - but I'll get to that next, but why he didn't tell anyone else until now is still on him). Likewise, though, we only have Jamie's assumptions that Ned would've judged him harshly no matter what... since he didn't actually tell Ned, and since Ned is now dead, we don't know how the 'wolf would've judged the lion' or what he would've done if Jamie had told him the story. Maybe he would've behaved as Jamie suspected he would, but maybe he would've believed him, maybe he would've seen that Jamie actually did do the honorable thing by saving countless men, women, children as well as the city structure itself. We don't know either way, unfortunately.

Again, hope that makes sense.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yeah, nobody knew that the Mad King was planning on burning all of King's Landing. So Ned didn't know that. Hence why Brianne says "Why didn't you tell anyone?"

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Even if he didn't tell why, you don't need to be a genius to understand the reason or at least understand that it was a good thing that the King died, he saved Robert a lot of trouble.
Furthermore, after Tywin betrayed the King, where was Ned honor ? Nowhere because Tywin was too powerful to be given a shameful title like Jamie.
Robb has even a worst sense of honor than his father, he made a deal with Lord Frey and broke his word for a woman, killed of his banner men instead of using his brain and jail him.

 

[RockSP]

One of the best things about the show. Everybody f@#%$ up.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Even if he didn't tell why, you don't need to be a genius to understand the reason or at least understand that it was a good thing that the King died, he saved Robert a lot of trouble.
Furthermore, after Tywin betrayed the King, where was Ned honor ? Nowhere because Tywin was too powerful to be given a shameful title like Jamie.
Robb has even a worst sense of honor than his father, he made a deal with Lord Frey and broke his word for a woman, killed of his banner men instead of using his brain and jail him.

Do you mean why didn't people call Tywin a traitor and give him a name like Kingslayer? Lots of reasons. He likely passed all the blame on the sack of King's Landing to Gregor Clegane who had that ruptation. Tywin himself never got his hands dirty. Gregor killed Elia Martell and Aegon, Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, and Jaime killed Aerys. Robert Baratheon was the one who give Jaime the name Kingslayer. Tywin is a very powerful man so people won't be openly speaking out against him. IIRC, Ned never called Jaime 'Kingslayer', at least to his face. But given his reputation, it's obvious he thinks poorly of Jaime for breaking his vow. He thinks poorly of Tywin Lannister for what he did, too.

I think Ned is worse than Theon at playing the game. Ned was there from the beginning with Robert's rebellion and saw everything. He knew how things worked and he still screwed it up.

The Starks are your hicks at the country club.

Theon is worse, IMO. Ned's honor stops him from doing things like seizing the throne as Lord Protector or kidnapping Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella like Littlefinger and Renly wanted. Theon would have no moral dilemma doing either of those, but he still makes incredibly stupid, short-sighted decisions to appease his people who are completely oblivious to the ways of everyone else in Westeros.

This.

His 'By what right does the wolf judge the lion?' line was kind of silly...I mean, I don't know, maybe it's because you were acting like an arrogant **** throughout season 1, with all that holier than thou ********.

But I do like where they're going with the character and that they're making us empathise with him by offering his perspective on the things that've made him infamous as the Kingslayer.

He didn't show remorse or shame when Ned found him. He didn't try to explain it. He just accepted it. He likes people hating him because it gives him a reason to be an arrogant jerk and hate them.

He's a great character. You want to wring his neck after he pushes Bran out the window but Martin is able to make him somewhat likable and sympathetic.

 

[DACrowe]

When I say Ned was the match I mean it this way, all the stuff you mentioned Jamie and Cersie doing was the powder being heaped on. It didn't have to blow. It could have been cleaned up. Instead Ned came in with his honor and blew all that **** up. Ned could have not told Cersie he knew her secret and went straight to Robert or just not told Cersie at all and taken his time to figure out the best course of action and avoided the treason nonsense and his execution that started the war. Instead he told Cersie because it was "honorable" thing to do which gave her time to scheme a solution. Then he refused to leave with Renly. Then he trusted Peter and the rest is history. Everything he shouldn't have done he did. The man was a fool and all that stuff he did was a match to the powder Cersie and Jaime had been laying down. Instead of using a shovel to clear the powder he took his torch of honor and lit it right up. If he had been smart and played the game like everyone urged him to do he would have had Cersei out on her ass and Robert would have still been King.

He was terrible at playing politics. However, I thought we were talking about his hypocritic moral outrage when my point is Jaime is just as guilty. However, you will not find me deny that he is bad at the game. Indeed only the Lannisters and Tyrells (and maybe soon the Martells) know kind of what they are doing. The Starks and Baratheons can't go five feet without tripping.

It's the Game of Thrones... some are bound to be better at it than others.

At least Ned wasn't as bad at the game as.......... hold on, I'm thinking...........

Cat?

Seriously though, I would say Balon Greyjoy is the worst. Simply because he can never win. Whether it is Robb or someone else coming up later, eventually he and his people will be crushed again.

 

[DACrowe]

I think Ned is worse than Theon at playing the game. Ned was there from the beginning with Robert's rebellion and saw everything. He knew how things worked and he still screwed it up.

The Starks are your hicks at the country club.

Heheh. I say Balon and realize everyone is now saying Greyoy characters. Really the Greyoys are the white trash of Westeros.

The Starks are more of the anti-social intellectual family that disdains going to the country club and rubbing shoulders with *******s. Unfortunately, you cannot make it without doing that in this world.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Even if he didn't tell why, you don't need to be a genius to understand the reason or at least understand that it was a good thing that the King died, he saved Robert a lot of trouble.
Furthermore, after Tywin betrayed the King, where was Ned honor ? Nowhere because Tywin was too powerful to be given a shameful title like Jamie.
Robb has even a worst sense of honor than his father, he made a deal with Lord Frey and broke his word for a woman, killed of his banner men instead of using his brain and jail him.

All the Starks make a lot of their decision off emotion without really thinking it through. I'm not saying all the time, but the war would be very different had Cat not release Jamie and Robb married the Frey.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Viserys has to be the worst player. Not only did he not do anything right, but he constantly made such blatant idiotic moves.

 

[Marvolo]

Viserys has to be the worst player. Not only did he not do anything right, but he constantly made such blatant idiotic moves.

Haha I always forget about him.

 

[Sawyer]

I think Ned is worse than Theon at playing the game. Ned was there from the beginning with Robert's rebellion and saw everything. He knew how things worked and he still screwed it up.

The Starks are your hicks at the country club.

lol nope. That's Greyjoy all the way.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Viserys has to be the worst player. Not only did he not do anything right, but he constantly made such blatant idiotic moves.

If only he had patience, he would have been able to come out ahead.

 

[Jordacar]

Who do you suppose Cersei would've wanted to marry (who isn't already a relative)?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Who do you suppose Cersei would've wanted to marry (who isn't already a relative)?

Nobody. She made that perfectly clear in the last episode.

 

[Jordacar]

Nobody. She made that perfectly clear in the last episode.

Interesting...

 

[Ramsay Snow]

Robert's rebellion to overthrow the King is fine and all, not honorable in the least because, well, it is not very honorable to rebel against your ruling King right ? But Jamie killing him is bad ? The man killed the mad King who committed atrocities and was about to burn everyone ( if I am correct ) and he is chastised ? As much as I like Ned character, his sense of honor is a big joke. I'm no saying Jamie is a good man far from it but he didn't do worst than Ned and Robert when they rebelled against their King.

True but with Ned (not sure about Robert) but wasn't his father and brother captured and even killed by the Mad King? It's kinda similar to when Robb rebels against Joffrey after his father's captured, right? Of course, I understand where Jaime's coming from, but he should've had a better attitude about it rather than just being smug and sitting on the Throne, but then that's what I love about the guy.

 

[Jordacar]

True but with Ned (not sure about Robert) but wasn't his father and brother captured and even killed by the Mad King? It's kinda similar to when Robb rebels against Joffrey after his father's captured, right? Of course, I understand where Jaime's coming from, but he should've had a better attitude about it rather than just being smug and sitting on the Throne, but then that's what I love about the guy.

He probably just needed to sit down. There aren't a lot of chairs in there and killing the f*** out of a crazed tyrant really takes it out of ya.

 

[RockSP]

Viserys has to be the worst player. Not only did he not do anything right, but he constantly made such blatant idiotic moves.

I don't even remember anything about him other than him pretending to be more feeble than he actually is. This show has too many damn characters!!!

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

You don't remember Viserys crowning ?

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

True but with Ned (not sure about Robert) but wasn't his father and brother captured and even killed by the Mad King? It's kinda similar to when Robb rebels against Joffrey after his father's captured, right? Of course, I understand where Jaime's coming from, but he should've had a better attitude about it rather than just being smug and sitting on the Throne, but then that's what I love about the guy.

They all swore allegiance to the King, they are vassals, so no matter what, they broke their vows of loyalty, like Jamie did. The Stark and the other Houses hide behind a veil of honor but are not better than the Lannisters save for Joffrey who should not even be on the throne and has no sense of kingship.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Viserys was like a really, REALLY stupid Lex Luthor.

With much better hair.

 

[Sawyer]

Viserys was like a really, REALLY stupid Lex Luthor.

With much better hair.

So essentially... nothing like Lex Luthor at all.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

They all swore allegiance to the King, they are vassals, so no matter what, they broke their vows of loyalty, like Jamie did. The Stark and the other Houses hide behind a veil of honor but are not better than the Lannisters save for Joffrey who should not even be on the throne and has no sense of kingship.

They were vassals, but they weren't the king's personal bodyguard and they didn't literally stab the guy in the back. What Jaime did would have been seen as a much greater betrayal and dishonor. In real life Jaime probably would have been executed by the new regime. Eadric of Mercia is a famous example of this.