Henry Cavill IS Superman: - Part 4

[Llama_Shepherd]

You're incorrect.



Source: Wikipedia article on Kal-El, Earth-1 Superboy/Superman.

Crap, yeah, you're right. I was thinking Earth-Two. Either way, it's a bad thing to do.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Superman, frankly is just too big to let that be the reason he turns.

It's not even about that. I think any moderately good person would endeavor to help people out if he/she was gifted with spectacular powers. A sociopath or a psychopath, on the other hand, would probably use such powers to subjugate and oppress. Either way, no one would sit on a gift like that!

 

[BlueLantern]

I don't want Clark to be perfect at the end of the film, and to be honest I think making him perfect will just end any future conflicts on an emotional level.

The reason I enjoyed Thor a lot was because it showed a very understandable turn and the emotional beats were as resonant as the action beats. That said it was a bit rushed the entire transformation.

I would love to see an epic film, similar to The Dark Knight in scale and vision which charts the journey of Clark from a young boy finding his way in the world to the world's greatest protector.

It doesn't need angst but it needs introspection. Zod provides the balance to the good by playing Devil's advocate, Mentor and all-round manipulative and machiavellian bad guy who's machinations bring out the best in Clark.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Well, Wayne and Parker's upbringing had quite a lot to do with them becoming heroes as well, I think. Wayne's parents were often showed as being very good, selfless people. And Parker was very much inspired by the man his Uncle Ben was.

Re: Superman, not to take anything away from the character, but I think it's a lot easier to become a superhero when you're invulnerable to bullets and such, when you can use your superspeed to rescue a victim in danger and be home for dinner in a flash of light, when you can soar to mountain heights.

If you're mere flesh and blood, like Bruce Wayne, there's so much more sacrifice involved I think. There's so much more at risk -- your very life, in fact. Aspiring to superhuman feats when you're just a man is inspiring to me. Regardless of how some try to portray Wayne, he remains a selfless character who ultimately wants to do good and succeeds at that. In that regard, he is no less noble than Superman.

That's true.

But Batman was purely born out of Vengeance towards the criminal society that created him. He was disturbed, and became angry at all of those who take innocent lives. He wanted to put the fear of God into them, that they put into others. That was the old days however, his motives slightly changed nowadays.

Superman was born out of the notion to implement the teachings of "Truth, Justice and the American Way", in a badly decayed society, because of his mid-western upbringing.

But in Birthright, which I prefer, he became Superman because he saw the horrors and beauty of the world. So he wanted to save it in any way he could, thus becoming Superman.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

That's true.

But Batman was purely born out of Vengeance towards the criminal society that created him. He was disturbed, and became angry at all of those who take innocent lives. He wanted to put the fear of God into them, that they put into others. That was the old days however, his motives slightly changed nowadays.

Superman was born out of the notion to implement the teachings of "Truth, Justice and the American Way", in a badly decayed society, because of his mid-western upbringing.

But in Birthright, which I prefer, he became Superman because he saw the horrors and beauty of the world. So he wanted to save it in any way he could, thus becoming Superman.

Agreed. Supposedly, the film will focus on Birthright as the basis for Superman's origins. I wonder how closely it will follow the details of the story though. Should be interesting.

 

[BlueLantern]

I think if Goyer's style is anything to go by it'll be bits of things here and there with some major beats taken scene for scene.

Look at the making of Batman Begins. There's scenes that are taken bang out of the pages. If he does it that way and mixes in other elements like the Zod from Last Son/World of New Krypton it'll be pretty cool.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I don't want to turn this into a big discussion about Batman or Spider-Man, but I did want to take the time to briefly address this post, which struck me as coming off somewhat close-minded. Having said that, here is my response:

Well, that is entirely subjective. While I agree with you that Superman is essentially altruistic by nature, I don't view characters, such as Batman or Spider-Man, as less than heroic or inspiring simply because they were motivated by guilt or tragedy. At the core of all three characters is a desire to help people.

Moreover, human beings are very fallible creatures. Despite how we present ourselves, we all make mistakes; no one is perfect. In Spider-Man's story, you have a young man who clearly faltered (in selfishly letting a criminal go) prior to becoming a hero, which led to the tragic murder of his uncle. What defines him, though, is the choice he made to rise above that moment, to learn and grow from it, to become a better man.

Similarly, Bruce Wayne, although obviously motivated by the death of his parents in childhood, has, over time, become so much more than a character merely defined by grief. People often have a tendency to focus on Wayne's more outlandish behavior without looking at the dedication, discipline and sacrifice exemplified by his life and works. Aside from being a prodigy of sorts, he doesn't have any special powers/abilities; he is a self-made man, a good man.

Superman, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about getting hurt for the most part. He is nigh-invulnerable. So yes, you're right, a character with such other-worldly abilities probably doesn't need a life changing event that would inspire him to greatness. He was given a very precious gift. I would hope that anyone, regardless of how finite their level of compassion, would do as Superman does were they able to walk in his shoes. To do otherwise would be like the wealthiest of tycoons turning a blind eye to the impoverished.

Perhaps what I said did come off a little black and white.

Don't get me wrong, I adore both Batman and Spiderman.

It's just that I don't think Superman should be born of anything negative.

That's what makes him more inspiring to me than Batman and Spiderman. That he doesn't need some big negative something to happen. That he just takes that leap because it's the right thing too do.

I mean, yes Batman is helping people. Partly as just a side effect of his own brand of revenge, and partly because he doesn't want them to suffer the pain he suffered. He is trying to change the world. It is inspiring sure.

As is Spiderman, who is driven by his Uncle Ben's death to live up to the man he wanted him to be.

But with both cases, it's like your saying 'if x hadn't died, they never would have become a hero'.

If Bruce Wayne's parents hadn't died, he might have turned out to be a wonderful kind businessman like his father, concerned with helping to improve the city. But he wouldn't be Batman. He'd still have the ability to be, the money, the resources... but he'd never do it.

And with Spiderman, would he have just carried on trying to make money from his abilities? Trying to impress people? Would he have become the hero if Uncle Ben hadn't died because of his mistake?

Well that's not Superman.

I don't want anyone even questioning what would have happened if JK hadn't died.

For him, being a hero is just who he is. He hides who he is at first yes, but he still can't help himself from saving people. It's just in his nature to use his gifts for that purpose. And I honestly believe that even if he had no gifts at all, he'd still put every fibre of his being into helping people.

It's actually one of the reasons I loved Kick Ass so much. Because it was just a regular kid, driven by only his own sense of wanting to help people, wanting to stand up to people and be a hero.

Re: Superman, not to take anything away from the character, but I think it's a lot easier to become a superhero when you're invulnerable to bullets and such, when you can use your superspeed to rescue a victim in danger and be home for dinner in a flash of light, when you can soar to mountain heights.

If you're mere flesh and blood, like Bruce Wayne, there's so much more sacrifice involved I think. There's so much more at risk -- your very life, in fact. Aspiring to superhuman feats when you're just a man is inspiring to me. Regardless of how some try to portray Wayne, he remains a selfless character who ultimately wants to do good and succeeds at that. In that regard, he is no less noble than Superman.

I admire it. I think it's incredible to think that a human can be so driven they can do things we wouldn't even dream of doing. And I find Batman's character fascinating.

But I wouldn't want to be like him. I don't look up to him. The man is full of rage and confusion and pain.

Yes, of course it is easier to save people if you know you won't get hurt. But Superman's job in general is a harder one. If you look at TDK, you could say Superman was the ultimate 'White Knight'. The hero with a face. The one that, if he falls, everything falls with him. He can't falter, he can't fail and he can't give up. It's an enormous amount of pressure.

Either way, no one would sit on a gift like that!

Superman is just a natural outgrowth of what he has always done.

Both quoted for truth.

I don't want Clark to be perfect at the end of the film, and to be honest I think making him perfect will just end any future conflicts on an emotional level.

The reason I enjoyed Thor a lot was because it showed a very understandable turn and the emotional beats were as resonant as the action beats. That said it was a bit rushed the entire transformation.

I would love to see an epic film, similar to The Dark Knight in scale and vision which charts the journey of Clark from a young boy finding his way in the world to the world's greatest protector.

It doesn't need angst but it needs introspection. Zod provides the balance to the good by playing Devil's advocate, Mentor and all-round manipulative and machiavellian bad guy who's machinations bring out the best in Clark.

I don't think it's neccesary to show him as PERFECT. But I think it's important he never gives in to temptations.

Sure, show Zod as the devil on his shoulder. Have it obvious that some of what he is saying makes sense to him. But have him CHOOSE to represent us. Kind of like Xavier and Magneto I suppose.

 

[BlueLantern]

I think for him to make that decision there needs to be enough reasons for him not to represent us as well. Otherwise it's a cop out.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The way Superman is, is because of the Kents. Their parenting and teachings kept him on the straight and narrow. His upbringing made him truthul, honest and pure hearted.

Although it was through himself he decided to become Superman, he wouldn't be the man he'd become without the Kents.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Saying that. The movie shouldn't just make it as though the Kents would push him or anything like that, no personal tragedies.

The thing that should make Clark Kent become Superman is the Earth. Clark see's the world in its beauty, see's it's fractures, and wants to help it.

The motivation could even stem from Zod destroying Krypton, and Clark wants to make sure what happened to his world doesn't happen to Earth.

But really, I love to see an Alien look at our planet the way we should look at it. That's the choice that makes Superman the most inspiring hero. Cause he cares for the world amd wants to save it, inspiring us to be and do the same.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Feels like a good time to repost this:

 

[GreenKToo]

and that was from awhile back..I wonder how much bigger he is now.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^Exactly.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I think he will be literally Perfect by the time filming starts, if he isn't already

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

It's just that I don't think Superman should be born of anything negative.

I don't want anyone even questioning what would have happened if JK hadn't died.

For him, being a hero is just who he is. He hides who he is at first yes, but he still can't help himself from saving people. It's just in his nature to use his gifts for that purpose. And I honestly believe that even if he had no gifts at all, he'd still put every fibre of his being into helping people.

Superman actually was born out of something negative/tragic though, depending on how you look at it. Not only did he lose his parents in childhood, he lost his entire homeworld! And as much as the Kents and those around him (on Earth) tried to make him feel at home, Clark still felt like an outcast. Sure, that's a scenario quite different from Batman's origins. Nevertheless, it is one rooted in sorrow and pain.

I remember talking to a coworker about the new Bond films with Daniel Craig, and he was so upset by the fact that the new films would be delving into the nature of Bond's origin, how he came to be the man he is today. My coworker felt that Bond was someway just born that way. Realistically, though, no one is ever born the way they are in adulthood. Logic will tell you that specific events and defining circumstances shape who we all become.

Re: Batman, I truly feel that a non-orphaned Bruce Wayne would also put every fiber of his being (or a good chunk at least) into helping people. (His father, although a wealthy entrepreneur, devoted countless hours in attending to the sick as a doctor, while his wife Martha focused on social work and teaching in some of the most squalid areas of Gotham.) Indeed, much of Batman's ideals emanate from his parents' teachings, specifically the value of life and the meaning of sacrifice.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Wow, they start filming next month. And we should be seeing a first picture of him in the suit soon too.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

And with Spiderman, would he have just carried on trying to make money from his abilities? Trying to impress people? Would he have become the hero if Uncle Ben hadn't died because of his mistake?

I'm not a huge Spider-Man fan, but I like to believe he would eventually get his act together at some point. You never know though..

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Superman actually was born out of something negative/tragic though, depending on how you look at it. Not only did he lose his parents in childhood, he lost his entire homeworld! And as much as the Kents and those around him (on Earth) tried to make him feel at home, Clark still felt like an outcast. Sure, that's a scenario quite different from Batman's origins. Nevertheless, it is one rooted in sorrow and pain.
.

I think your missing the point.

No one goes through their life with nothing bad ever happening. And Superman does have tragedy in his past in terms of what happened on Krypton.

But he doesn't become Supermand BECAUSE he is an orphan. He doesn't become SUPERMAN to avenge his parents death or anything.

It's about the birth of the Superhero coming from a positive place, not about him having nothing bad in his past at all.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

But I wouldn't want to be like him. I don't look up to him. The man is full of rage and confusion and pain.

Yes, of course it is easier to save people if you know you won't get hurt. But Superman's job in general is a harder one. If you look at TDK, you could say Superman was the ultimate 'White Knight'. The hero with a face. The one that, if he falls, everything falls with him. He can't falter, he can't fail and he can't give up. It's an enormous amount of pressure.

What I think is notable about Wayne, though, is how he manages to keep all of those inner demons, so to speak, in check. Here's a character who has traveled the world and mastered a dozen mental disciplines mind you. Indeed, Batman is generally considered to be the pinnacle of human perfection. You don't get that way if you're some out of control lunatic like Frank Castle.

And I wouldn't want to have his life either, but I'd be a liar if I said I would not (or could not) look up to someone like that.

This actually reminds me of a quote from one of my favorite songwriters:

"When someone is living high on the hog and someone can do no wrong and everyone loves them, that's really not the time to look at them and see what they're really made of or really worth. The time to be inspired by someone is when they're dealing with tragedy and negative aspects of themselves and the world around them. When I'm confident and filled with understanding and strength, I'm probably not really exhibiting anything that's worth following. But if I'm knee deep in **** and I'm managing to get through it, maybe I'm setting an example that someone else can benefit from."


Re: The Dark Knight, I never really bought into the idea of Harvey Dent being a "white knight" simply because he was a hero with a face. Realistically, Dent had major issues from the start and anyone who watched the film could see that. That's why he was eventually corrupted by the Joker's influence, whereas Batman was not. That's another story entirely though.

 

[BlueLantern]

Thing is the general public don't know that Harvey has issues. They see the hero with a face and the Batman of the night who doesn't have one.

 

[spider_rob]

Feels like a good time to repost this:

Damn, looks like he stepped out of a comic!

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

But he doesn't become Supermand BECAUSE he is an orphan. He doesn't become SUPERMAN to avenge his parents death or anything.

To be honest with you, I can't imagine how that wouldn't impact him in some way. Knowing that his entire planet was destroyed, I think he'd feel a certain responsibility to preserving life on his adopted home world. I'm not saying that's the sole factor that determines what makes Clark Superman, but I think it could very well be a partial influence. He already lost a whole planet. And now he has a chance to save another one. I think there's something to that.

It's fascinating how similar Batman and Superman actually are in certain respects.

They're both orphans.
Batman doesn't want anyone to suffer the way he did.
And I believe that Superman doesn't want to see this world perish the way his world once did.
And in appearance, they're basically twins, if you subtract Superman's spitcurl. =)~

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Thing is the general public don't know that Harvey has issues. They see the hero with a face and the Batman of the night who doesn't have one.

My point exactly, Lantern. Don't judge a book by its cover!

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Does he have to know he is the Last Kryptonian to become Superman though?

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Does he have to know he is the Last Kryptonian to become Superman though?

It's up to you as a reader, I think, to determine that. In my opinion, though, it's definitely a factor. Much like a mother who loses that first child seeks to overly protect her other young, I can definitely see Superman wanting to protect our planet in a way he could not save his own. Again, I'm not saying it solely influences his decision, but I think it has something to do with it.