Lord of the Advice: Fellowship of the Relationship

[Nave 'Torment']

The "trap" of what most guys do when they think putting effort, and time into pursuing a relationship with a girl only for the girl to not be receptive to it and the guy assuming just because he does X, Y and Z or he's A, B and C, that a girl should automatically be smitten by them.

Yes. I liked that you distinguished all that calculative notion from pure "attraction". If anything, from what I believe now, the X Y Z and A B Cs should come only after someone's in a committed relationship... not before.

Once you've decided you hate someone based on essentially nothing everything they do naturally becomes *****ey. Like they don't have a single redeeming quality. Frankly if you're compartmentalizing behavior like that and trying to label others then you probably missed the entire point of why she liked him in the first place.

(not a response to Erz)

While I agree with this to a very large degree -- you can't entirely rule out certain trademark "*****ey" characteristics as having a universal appeal. You've mentioned confidence, someone else said the "bad boy" image, those stay... but I hardly doubt every single woman in the world respond to that in the same way.

I wouldn't characterise the other guy as a *****e. He's alcoholic and in a band, but not a *****e. Hell, he even looks a lot like me, has the same taste in music, etc. So no, I can't really call him a *****e...

(out of his ****in mind for not liking this girl though, i'm willing to bet she's attracted to him because he's "unattainable." If that is true, then yes, she's lacking in the maturity department...)

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Also, you'll find if you ever do get into a good relationship, a great deal is paid to the person's heart, that someone will give and sacrifice for the right person. However, to expect that before even a first date is ridiculous, you are a stranger at that point, do you give and sacrifice emotionally to every stranger you meet on the street?

This ought to be highlighted... except it's true even when you're not the stranger. It only works if the other person feels the same way. Looks, the masculine aura, personality etc. all that works only to an extent--for that first time impression. The "clickage" that Anita was talking about a few threads back is definitely more important than any of that.

It's why opposites attract. That isn't always a bad thing.

It's hard to stop thinking about a rational reason why someone doesn't like you, but if emotions are involved you can't just force them.

And even if you're a player and can manipulate people like that, well that means you're hiding a lot of you behind certain masks that, once they're gone, they're gone. You shouldn't expect a lasting relationship around that.

What you've described here is what I've been pining over all this time. It needs to stop. If it clicks it'll click.

What's wrong with that. Maybe other girls will see the confidence building. Did you think this would win the girl back. Don't stop running/working out. Set some goals for yourself outside of just using it to deal with pain. Register for a race or something, join a running club. Who knows maybe you'll meet someone there.

No there's nothing wrong with that -- just that i've been moping over it... but I don't think... it's building up my confidence or anything like that (though the "hey you slimmed down!" from people doesn't hurt every once in a while t: ... if they only knew.) I don't think I'll ever get this girl--maybe if she changed herself dramatically there'll be a chance. I'll just accept the fact that I'm not what she's looking for. It's getting easier to accept that.

It is something else, something called "She's just not that into you", you can't make her like you, he's the bad boy, the rebel, she's young and immature, so she's probably into that right now.

Again, this is what a friend of mine was telling me about. That she's immature and crazy etc. That... might be true... but that doesn't help me much does it? Saying that "yeah she's immature and young and outta her mind" would be... too easy. I'm more inclined to accept that maybe she was attracted to me initially --- and that got me hooked --- but since then she's found something deeper in the other guy (no not sex, he's the opposite of the uber-macho *****e) and is hooked to that.

Being turned down SUCKS. But yeah -- I don't think there's a rational reason behind it. She likes him more. End o' story. Better now when we were dating than later.

Okay, so this girl seems to want to throw away her future, let her. Does her not going to school make you going to school unbearable, was the only reason you were going to school because of her? You really need to get a grip man. Cut this girl out of your life.

Like i said before... right now i need to be able to stay alone and say that i'm happy by myself. Honestly - that's more important than anything else.

 

[Erzengel]

I want to experience love, connections, have fun with people, date and have fleeting romances. But I don't know if I'll ever be one of those people who finds a partner that I'd want to share a life with, or settle down with.

It'd have to be someone really special

But now they are

You're in your early twenties and your most successful relationship is with someone who was sleeping with other men. You live in a small town where the pickings are slim. My point is you're young and when you do move to a bigger pond, priorities are capable of changing.

There was a time all I wanted to do was meet people and have fun, but then I found someone that I didn't want to lose.

However, I've known some women who only have had 1 brief relationship their entire life. And years later are single and not really looking. Some people may not need relationships and might be independent, but I like to think there are others out there who just haven't met the right person.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

There is no 'objective' concept of a *****ebag. *****ebags are invented in the minds of insecure people to justify they're relative positions in life. It deflects any form of self criticism.

Do you... have a problem with that term man? Coz no, there is an objective concept of a *****ebag. It's called being a dick to others

But yeah, more often than not, it's easier to categorise a rejection as something that's overtly superficial on the other person's part, when the greater truth is that it's something closer to you than her.

But... then there's what happened to me. When the other person isn't interested she isn't interested. Doesn't matter how you play it. It's not meant to be. The only thing you can do is pat yourself in the back and say "congratulations bub you just wasted +5 points of EMOTION on someone who didn't get it. You've Achieved "EMOTIONAL SHIELD".

For what it's worth, you get a bit more cynical, a bit more okay to be alone, and a bit more jaded. In the end it works out well for the potential future mate. She'll be better than this girl, so it only fits that I try to be better than who I am now.

I think I'm just genetically predisposed to be forever alone...

Cheer up big guy. At least you have... okay I won't go there :P

I'm feeling that way too at the moment. You'll find someone, meanwhile you get to be Bruce Wayne.

Lost 5lbs since the breakup....

I lost more than that... since the "not-getting-into-a-relationship". Depression is the easiest way to lose weight.

He's sad.

Aren't we all a little? (okay maybe not YOU. You exude euphoria like a pro.)

 

[Erzengel]

Yes. I liked that you distinguished all that calculative notion from pure "attraction". If anything, from what I believe now, the X Y Z and A B Cs should come only after someone's in a committed relationship... not before.

Well the A, B, C's can get you an audition.

If I was single and a friend was trying to set me up, I would want them to tell the prospective date, that I'm attractive, smart and funny. But I know well enough that it's not going to necessarily guarantee me a shot with them.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

You're in your early twenties and your most successful relationship is with someone who was sleeping with other men. You live in a small town where the pickings are slim. My point is you're young and when you do move to a bigger pond, priorities are capable of changing.

There was a time all I wanted to do was meet people and have fun, but then I found someone that I didn't want to lose.

However, I've known some women who only have had 1 brief relationship their entire life. And years later are single and not really looking. Some people may not need relationships and might be independent, but I like to think there are others out there who just haven't met the right person.

More importantly -- you found someone who didn't want to lose YOU. You found that right person.

I don't want to have fun and fool around, not here at least, i'd like for something more profound than that and if i'm dating that's what i'm looking for.

(well... the few times i do date that is).

 

[hopefuldreamer]

^ What you just described is something every rational adult should try to accomplish first: be content with one's own self. Instead of pursuing happiness with others. That really, I believe, should come second.

It's something I need to work on right now.

Actually I think the most important thing to realise is that being 'content' isn't a state you can ever constantly be in.

No matter what your life is, everyone has problems. And even when you don't have actual physical problems in your life and everything is going perfectly... Sometimes you're just going to inexplicably be unhappy. In a bad mood, lonely, confused, conflicted.

And that's okay. It's normal. It's the natural way of things. Ups AND downs. Good AND bad.

It's the people that seem to think being in a relationship, or achieving anything they've got their heart set on even if it isn't a woman/man, is going to make everything right. Those are the people who are going to be constantly dissapointed.

Because when things don't become perfect after they get what they wanted, they'll convince themselves they got it wrong. That this isn't the perfect girl or the perfect job or the perfect place. And then they will screw it all up and start 'looking' for that contentment again.

I guess what I'm saying is that you've gotta be content with your own discontent

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Well the A, B, C's can get you an audition.

If I was single and a friend was trying to set me up, I would want them to tell the prospective date, that I'm attractive, smart and funny. But I know well enough that it's not going to necessarily guarantee me a shot with them.

I must've misunderstood then because I thought the A B Cs were "being nice" "emotionally caring" and "trustworthy"

Not... y'know "Good personality," "sexual rigor," and "awesomeness". But yeah I get what you mean.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Actually I think the most important thing to realise is that being 'content' isn't a state you can ever constantly be in.

No matter what your life is, everyone has problems. And even when you don't have actual physical problems in your life and everything is going perfectly... Sometimes you're just going to inexplicably be unhappy. In a bad mood, lonely, confused, conflicted.

And that's okay. It's normal. It's the natural way of things. Ups AND downs. Good AND bad.

It's the people that seem to think being in a relationship, or achieving anything they've got their heart set on even if it isn't a woman/man, is going to make everything right. Those are the people who are going to be constantly dissapointed.

Because when things don't become perfect after they get what they wanted, they'll convince themselves they got it wrong. That this isn't the perfect girl or the perfect job or the perfect place. And then they will screw it all up and start 'looking' for that contentment again.

I guess what I'm saying is that you've gotta be content with your own discontent

I agree... that's something that'd make you a lot happier (and apathetic towards that). The pursuit of happiness has CRIPPLED us

Being inexplicably unhappy, in a bad mood, and feeling alone is something that seems to be a chronic condition with me... THROUGHOUT MY LIFE. And it sucks. It hurts. It's friggin existentially pathetic at times. And I have to live with that. I have to be able to be happy on my own before I pull on someone else -- it's not like that person, or that goal, or that place, can save me. But I totally get where that feeling of estrangement comes from, and yes, it is completely normal. So we have goals, we pursue them. That isn't bad is it? We fail, we try again, we fail again. The point should be that we're failing better.

I'm taking it another way now though... if things are so utterly hopeless and terrible, if this is the worst that can happen to me, then yeah that's a good thing. It means I'm facing my worst fears of being alone, isolated and unhappy and then surviving.

Emotionally it feels like being stabbed with a knife... repeatedly, but then you start to realize that it isn't killing you. What I'm trying to get at is this: if being alone is my greatest fear, i'd rather confront it now and be able to be NOT AFRAID OF IT damn it. The more I think of it -- this non-thing with the girl i was pursuing hurt me more because it made me feel alone, and then i saw her being all alone and depressed and i empathised with that and wanted to help her out but she didn't need my help -- she needed someone else's. It hurt me because i thought i was utterly alone again and i was afraid of being alone.

That has to stop.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Got engaged. It's topical.

This thread needs more happy and successful stories. ELABORATE [and congrats ]

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Do you... have a problem with that term man? Coz no, there is an objective concept of a *****ebag. It's called being a dick to others

The problem is, bear with, being an occasional d*** to others really isn't a bad thing and if you personally have a problem with it then you're being too sensitive and too emotional and that is ultimately what is driving girls away. I am a d*** from time to time, but that's because I wil ruthlessly protect my lot in life. I don't wish to be yanked around, I'm not intimidated by men or women and when I want things I am assertive. There is a reason 'being a d***' is not a crime. People know innately no one is perfect and also understand that no one is pleasant 100% of the time, so when you throw those terms around as if they're identities (which I see a lot around here) then it shows a superficial understanding of actual people. Ironically this is the same as putting p***y on a pedestal. Erecting an image an insisting the image is reality. In the case of *****ebags its generally always minor indiscretions that warrant that term, if you even want to call them that.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

The problem is, bear with, being an occasional d*** to others really isn't a bad thing and if you personally have a problem with it then you're being too sensitive and too emotional and that is ultimately what is driving girls away. I am a d*** from time to time, but that's because I wil ruthlessly protect my lot in life. I don't wish to be yanked around, I'm not intimidated by men or women and when I want things I am assertive. There is a reason 'being a d***' is not a crime. People know innately no one is perfect and also understand that no one is pleasant 100% of the time, so when you throw those terms around as if they're identities (which I see a lot around here) then it shows a superficial understanding of actual people. Ironically this is the same as putting p***y on a pedestal. Erecting an image an insisting the image is reality. In the case of *****ebags its generally always minor indiscretions that warrant that term, if you even want to call them that.

And ... then you have full-on personalities and characters that are shaped around the idea that if you're an ******* you get your way in life. I get what you mean by minor actions creating labels, but you can't just deny the fact that there are superficial peoples out there who are complete *******s when they're in public.

If someone thinks (and i'm not saying this to you or anyone else around here) that being a dick is the only way to get around and assert oneself, then... well it shows their own insecurities more blatantly to everyone. There is such a thing as calm confidence as well.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

And ... then you have full-on personalities and characters that are shaped around the idea that if you're an ******* you get your way in life. I get what you mean by minor actions creating labels, but you can't just deny the fact that there are superficial peoples out there who are complete *******s when they're in public.

If someone thinks (and i'm not saying this to you or anyone else around here) that being a dick is the only way to get around and assert oneself, then... well it shows their own insecurities more blatantly to everyone. There is such a thing as calm confidence as well.

As I say, this all sounds overly sensitive. You're assuming a lot of sincerity that probably isn't there. I can roll with the punches so who cares if someone is rude to me because I'm a big boy, not a kid. Frankly, yes, asserting yourself IS the only way, whether it be studying hard, effectively using your money or being the life of a party. Does someone's dickish behavior bother you that much? Learn to loosen up a bit. Girls love to give guys a hard time so when they do I give it to them right back. I'm not going to treat them special because they have boobs. Also being assertive far outweighs being passive.

A lot of your stories involve you throwing a bunch of emotional dead weight at someone. Unless someone is truly hurting someone in such a way that they cannot recover, or is physically violent, you shouldn't even notice them enough to know whether or not they're *****.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The problem is, bear with, being an occasional d*** to others really isn't a bad thing and if you personally have a problem with it then you're being too sensitive and too emotional and that is ultimately what is driving girls away. I am a d*** from time to time, but that's because I wil ruthlessly protect my lot in life. I don't wish to be yanked around, I'm not intimidated by men or women and when I want things I am assertive. There is a reason 'being a d***' is not a crime. People know innately no one is perfect and also understand that no one is pleasant 100% of the time, so when you throw those terms around as if they're identities (which I see a lot around here) then it shows a superficial understanding of actual people. Ironically this is the same as putting p***y on a pedestal. Erecting an image an insisting the image is reality. In the case of *****ebags its generally always minor indiscretions that warrant that term, if you even want to call them that.

So guys that get called "*****ebags" are just confident guys that are secure and forward enough in themselves to get what they want, that just get hated on by "nice guys" cuz "nice guys" are too insecure to step up to take the girl?

You're saying that people who get called a "dick" or a "*****ebag" never deserve it?

There aren't guys out there genuinely inconsiderate of others? There aren't guys out there who try too hard to put themselves on a non existent pedastal at the expense of others? There aren't guys out there who ridicule and put down others?

For the record, I've never called someone a *****ebag for going out and taking life by the horns, and getting what they want out of life. It is a good trait to look out for yourself and get what you need out of life.

But there seems to be a mentality in this thread that anytime a guy calls another guy a *****e ag, its because he's a "nice guy", to be confused with a "beta male", who is just bitter cuz he missed out on the girl to the "alpha male" who was confident in what he wanted.

There -is- an objective criteria for a *****e bag, guys can in fact be *****ebags, and it has nothing to do with some perceived "alpha v. beta male" insecurity. Just like women can be *****es, guys can be *****es.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

So guys that get called "*****ebags" are just confident guys that are secure and forward enough in themselves to get what they want, that just get hated on by "nice guys" cuz "nice guys" are too insecure to step up to take the girl?

You're saying that people who get called a "dick" or a "*****ebag" never deserve it?

There aren't guys out there genuinely inconsiderate of others? There aren't guys out there who try too hard to put themselves on a non existent pedastal at the expense of others? There aren't guys out there who ridicule and put down others?

For the record, I've never called someone a *****ebag for going out and taking life by the horns, and getting what they want out of life. It is a good trait to look out for yourself and get what you need out of life.

But there seems to be a mentality in this thread that anytime a guy calls another guy a *****e ag, its because he's a "nice guy", to be confused with a "beta male", who is just bitter cuz he missed out on the girl to the "alpha male" who was confident in what he wanted.

There -is- an objective criteria for a *****e bag, guys can in fact be *****ebags, and it has nothing to do with some perceived "alpha v. beta male" insecurity. Just like women can be *****es, guys can be *****es.

Frankly, ask yourself this "how many people have LEGITIMATELY been a *****ebags"...

...You can throw the term around all you want, and it's not a beta/alpha thing, it's a "what HONESTLY warrants that title"? Just being kind of rude and forward? Having a fun manner of dress? Making fun of someone you've had sex with?

Hitler, Hitler is a *****ebag. Zimmerman is a *****ebag. Dick Cheney is a *****ebag. They do things worthy of such an identity. Guy who called his girl a ho? Nah. People say and do a lot of stupid sh** and most of it is forgiveable. Fact is women complain about guys just to make noise. Men complain for much the same reason. It's not *****ey to vent a frustration or point out a flaw or even encourage 'bad' behavior. You shouldn't put much stock into what people say.

 

[DV8]

Do you... have a problem with that term man? Coz no, there is an objective concept of a *****ebag. It's called being a dick to others

I'm going to start calling people "tampons"

 

[Erzengel]

Know a guy who roughed up his woman, at 50 years old but looks late 30s due to work out :cough:steroids:cough:, as well as cosmetic enhancements continues to work in the bar scene, won't ever make a commitment.

He's pretty much a *****ebag. I know one when I see one.

 

[Erzengel]

I'm going to start calling people "tampons"

I call them bags of water.

 

[DV8]

I call them bags of water.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Frankly, ask yourself this "how many people have LEGITIMATELY been a *****ebags"...

...You can throw the term around all you want, and it's not a beta/alpha thing, it's a "what HONESTLY warrants that title"? Just being kind of rude and forward? Having a fun manner of dress? Making fun of someone you've had sex with?

Hitler, Hitler is a *****ebag. Zimmerman is a *****ebag. Dick Cheney is a *****ebag. They do things worthy of such an identity. Guy who called his girl a ho? Nah. People say and do a lot of stupid sh** and most of it is forgiveable. Fact is women complain about guys just to make noise. Men complain for much the same reason. It's not *****ey to vent a frustration or point out a flaw or even encourage 'bad' behavior. You shouldn't put much stock into what people say.

Um, yes, calling your girlfriend a "ho" is very *****ebaggy. That is a form of disrespect. There's no "venting frustration" that warrants calling your girlfriend a "ho".

I've called girls "*****es" before - that made me a *****ebag. I have been a *****ebag plenty of times in my life towards women, and I would have rightly been called such. I have been called a *****e bag by my brother for having a very abrasive personality and expressing opinions in such a way that was insulting to him and other people. And he is a *****e bag for kicking me out of his life for it, taking parting shots at me to attack very personal parts of my life, and using it as an excuse to drive a wedge between himself and my parents who haven't involved themselves.

*****ebags absolutely exist, and yes, calling your girlfriend a ho is the act of a *****e bag.

You can vent your frustrations about your girlfriend without calling her disrespectful names.

Being confident and going after what you want in life =/= being an arrogant, disrespectful, selfish prick in the process.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Jerks and *****ebags are all just matters of perception. For me the overly nice are in fact jerks because they become burdens to those around them. My friend buys everyone drinks then his paycheck is gone, and he becomes everyone else's financial burden, but continues this trend of generousity despite being asked not to. My stingey behavior on the other hand afford's me the opportunity to be generous when it counts. Although I often have to be a "dick" when guarding the money I have. Also when I am nice I seldom have an audience. I'd rather no one see or hear sweet things I say to girls because it is for their ears only.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

did you listen to the stuff I sent you?

Yes I did sir.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Protecting your money and not giving irresponsibly is not a "jerk".

Again, you are confusing being called a "*****e" or a "jerk" with some spineless puss calling you that because he's jealous that he can't go after what he wants.

being disrespectful towards others = *****e
Lending responsibly = smart

They are not the same.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Um, yes, calling your girlfriend a "ho" is very *****ebaggy. That is a form of disrespect. There's no "venting frustration" that warrants calling your girlfriend a "ho".

I've called girls "*****es" before - that made me a *****ebag. I have been a *****ebag plenty of times in my life towards women, and I would have rightly been called such. I have been called a *****e bag by my brother for having a very abrasive personality and expressing opinions in such a way that was insulting to him and other people. And he is a *****e bag for kicking me out of his life for it, taking parting shots at me to attack very personal parts of my life, and using it as an excuse to drive a wedge between himself and my parents who haven't involved themselves.

*****ebags absolutely exist, and yes, calling your girlfriend a ho is the act of a *****e bag.

You can vent your frustrations about your girlfriend without calling her disrespectful names.

Being confident and going after what you want in life =/= being an arrogant, disrespectful, selfish prick in the process.

What a guy calls his girl honestly is not your problem, and you'll know by her actions whether or not she has a problem with it. I'm pretty sure hitting a girl is wrong, but hell, it's illegal to hit dogs and MEN also. Anyone who is dissecting someone's behavior is the jerk. I am very passionate that people should be allowed to say what is on their minds and unless they take some personal shame in it they shouldn't feel compelled to apologize. If you believe it you ought to say it.

I think you'd honestly be very surprised what people do and don't care about. How do you know the girl isn't in on it? How do you know he doesn't apologize? What's the context? Did she do something "ho-ish"? Like sleep with someone else?

Name calling is seriously not a big deal, I've gotten called good and bad names but I have my own opinion of myself that really is not effected by any of them.

Calling a guy a *****ebag for saying the word ho is a pot-kettle-black situation.

 

[Erzengel]

Who doesn't call their SO obscenities?

Especially in bed.