Marvel WUSSING OUT and going back to fanboy comfort zone.

[Doc Destruction]

When Bendis came on board, he should had a fill in arc against a villain of the week with a wanda-slowly-goiing-crazy subplot, which would lead to Disassembled. Would have worked 10 times better

EXACTLY. And Illuminati - same thing.

 

[gildea]

EXACTLY. And Illuminati - same thing.

they did have involvement in two arcs before the one shot where they split.

Sentry and Planet Hulk: Prologue.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Awfully big group to build them up in two arcs that not many people read.

 

[gildea]

Awfully big group to build them up in two arcs that not many people read.

The sales figures for new avengers disagree with you.

 

[Doc Destruction]

I thought you meant the Sentry mini. You mean the Sentry arc. Yes, that is called dropping the idea in our laps as fact out of nowhere.

 

[gildea]

I thought you meant the Sentry mini. You mean the Sentry arc. Yes, that is called dropping the idea in our laps as fact out of nowhere.

How else is he supposed to introduce it? You could say that about anything as it's introduced!! Heck going on that if he had a pre disassembled arc with and unstable wanda that would be dropping it in our laps also!! (plus apprently the majority where together in some obscure story whose name i can't remember)

They had two arcs before the mini, I agree that we really don't have enough time to emotionally invest in the group to care about the split but I don't really think we were supposed to care about the group itself, more of the repecussions of the split.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Here's how a clever writer introduces the Illuminati...

Reed is seen talking to someone on a screen, Sue walks in and he suddenly breaks off the transmission. "Who was that?" "Oh, just a buyer for some of my technology."

Cyclops walks in on Xavier who is obviously not there. "Sir?" Xavier comes to "Sorry, ahem, yes Scott?"

Build up, build up, build up. THAT is the making of a sweet concept. Only people reading ALL the titles will pick up on it, and as it becomes more apparent, the hints get less and less subtle until the moment where they all band together to banish the Hulk, shown on panel together for the first time.

Not too difficult, really.

 

[gildea]

Only people reading ALL the titles will pick up on it, and as it becomes more apparent, the hints get less and less subtle until the moment where they all band together to banish the Hulk, shown on panel together for the first time.

Can't say i agree with making a story only work so only readers of all the titles will get it. Though i do agree that would have worked well I guess they just didn't have time for it.

I'm only debating this because you agreed with elijya that they should of had and arc before they had the proper one shot intro and I pointed out they've had two, but that's still dropping in our laps? I'm confused, there seems to be a contradiction here.

 

[Elijya]

I was unaware of those cameos

 

[gildea]

I was unaware of those cameos

They are pretty prominant in the Sentry arc and they are in the last issue of the planet hulk prologue but only as a speech bubble which is revealed to be them in the one shot (actually the sort of subtle build up that doc wanted)

 

[Doc Destruction]

They were intoduced in those arcs. That isn't forshadowing. That's saying "HERE THEY ARE!"

 

[gildea]

They were intoduced in those arcs. That isn't forshadowing. That's saying "HERE THEY ARE!"

A speech bubble with no knowledge of whom is saying it isn't an introduction (planet hulk).
The sentry arc showed superheroes talking but we didn't know that this was a semi regular and organised occurance or most importantly the reason why they meet up, introducing the group would have told us these details.

I'm not saying it couldn't there couldn't have been more just disagree with the idea that there was no foreshadowing when there factually was.

 

[Wolverazio]

A speech bubble with no knowledge of whom is saying it isn't an introduction (planet hulk).
The sentry arc showed superheroes talking but we didn't know that this was a semi regular and organised occurance or most importantly the reason why they meet up, introducing the group would have told us these details.

I'm not saying it couldn't there couldn't have been more just disagree with the idea that there was no foreshadowing when there factually was.

The difference is this, in the mid 90s the Avengers had a long storyline build up (nearly two years) about Sersi (which to me is basically what happened with Wanda except Bendis had her altering reality). Not in every issue, but in most issues there were little things happening and little connections that gave you the hint "hey, something's going on with Sersi" and later "this Proctor guy is somehow involved."

Then, it all came together in a 2-4 issue story.

That is the good build up vs. having something freaky happen two issues before and then suddenly, "AH, PROCTOR IS CRAZY BLACK KNIGHT FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION!"

 

[Ookami_Wolf1]

Just because you find a rumor, does not make the rumor true. Marvel may go back to the status quo or they may not. Everything in life is 50/50. It either does, or it doesn't.

 

[YJ1]

I also don't remember fans askin' fer Spidey to have stingers or be Iron Man's *****.

Good point. While Spider-Man has floundered for a long while (I agree with the JMS bashing), I've really enjoyed New Avengers at times. I'm as vintage of an Avengers fan as there can be but I found the early New Avengers arcs to be bold and refreshing. I always knew that a classic Avengers revival was always easy to achieve. I say, bump Sentry for Thor, lose Spider-Man and let the rest of the roster ride for a while. Why was Sentry ever on this team? He's a dull character that is simply too powerful. They had him beat Terrax (sp?), a former herald of Galactus, in two panels in the Sentry solo book. Once you establish that power range, the character instantly becomes uninteresting and nearly unusable.

then what happened to Excalibur????

Give Claremont a real artist for heaven's sake!

 

[Varient]

Excerpt from: http://phonogram.us/comics/panther/intro.htm
Which explains the panther before getting into it's issues with cancellation:

" Also, Panther was a black super-hero and, the most basic economic lesson this business can teach you is, minorities and female super-heroes do not sell (but, kudos to Marvel for trying to do both with the black female version of CAPTAIN MARVEL).

But, Joe and his partner, inker Jimmy Palmiotti, were adamant: the book can work, they insisted. If we have a fresh approach, perhaps along the lines of Eddie Murphy's Coming To America, where the crown prince of an African nation comes to America in search of a bride. Given that kind of energy, taking Wakanda and the Panther seriously, and concentrating on how people react to him- that approach might have a chance in the market. Get him out of the jungle. Bring him to Brooklyn. Make him a night creature, a fearsome African warrior, a manner of black man most blacks in Brooklyn have never seen.

Nah. I was still unconvinced, "Look, guys, we're talking about a king. A black king of not just an African nation but a powerful nation with advanced technology capable of posing a threat to U.S. National security. A king who is prone to occasionally leap out of windows dressed in a kitty cat suit. If this guy, and his nation, actually existed, there's just no way the U.S. State Department would let this guy wander around unescorted, and the CIA would be constantly trying to figure out what's going on in Wakanda. There'd be all manner of global and domestic and racial politics involved."

For me to flesh out Joe and Jimmy's PANTHER premise, I'd need to go to the wells of snarkdom, for the snarkiest snark I was capable of. Social politics as interpreted by Richard Belzer, Dennis Leary or Dennis Miller. It would be truly sardonic and truly snarky, and Marvel hasn't been the home of true snark since they sent Steve Gerber and his duck packing. I was trying to chase Joe and Jimmy away, but this stuff just excited them.

Again and again, I whined, there's no way Marvel would let me write this. It's a violation of the Fantasy Land Nice-Nice Accords, signed by both DC and Marvel, that says the US government is always good all the time, everyone accepts Panther, there is no racial divide in America, and the Avengers hold hands and sing and what have you. Mainstream comics were demented places where heroes actually referred to themselves as "heroes," and villains as "villains." These were places run by people who have run comic book companies far, far, far too long and have completely lost touch with popular culture or with what young people today are actually about. I have had my hand slapped more times than I can count for simply pointing out the absurdity of what we do- of these colorful men and women who fly around wearing their underwear on the outside of their clothes.

I believe Chris Claremont was the first writer I experienced who made sense out of all of this for me when he humanized the deadly Magneto. Claremont's brilliant writing had some of his heroes acting in completely unheroic ways, and presented many of his villains as conflicted, desperate souls who never, ever, referred to themselves as "villains," and certainly never thought of Xavier and his ilk as "heroes."

Frank Miller and others followed suit, bringing more dimension and plurality to the Marvel Universe (while, for the most part, DC continues fairly entrenched in a kind of white-washed estrangement from the real world; nearly all their heroes being beloved, respected and trusted by the average citizen, to whom flying men and women are a mundane and accepted practice)."

 

[Elijya]

awww ::sniff:: he remembered Steve....

 

[Varient]

"Marvel's critically acclaimed BLACK PANTHER— and its creators— dominated a diverse group of winners in 2001's rec.arts.comics Squiddy Awards. BLACK PANTHER won the "Best Ongoing Series" award, while PANTHER creators Christopher Priest, Sal Velluto, and Bob Almond were picked as "Best Creative Team." PANTHER writer Christopher Priest and PANTHER Inker Bob Almond were also honored as "Best Writer" and "Best Inker" respectively. Squiddy voters also selected Tom Brevoort (PANTHER editor for much of 2001) as "Best Editor" and T'Challa himself as "Best Comics Character."

— USENET, April 19, 2002

STILL GOT CANCELLED> tsk.

 

[Assassin]

The sales figures for new avengers disagree with you.

Cough **wolverine fans** Cough

 

[Artistsean]

I don't mind them going back to the comfort zone. i'm tired of all these epic storylines that crossover every comic they put out and dramatically change things like killing off major characters. It makes you feel like you have to buy every single issue of that story. And lately they have gone from one world crisis story to the next leaving very little, if any, down time.
And then after a while they will undo all the big changes the made anyway, bringing back characters that were killed off and so on.

I just think if they are going to have one big epic story it should be just one title that uses every character, not go into all the other comics.

 

[Elijya]

They did a good job of (relatively) avoiding that for a few years, and it was a pretty good time for marvel books (I'm thinking post-heroes return, I don't recall any major crossovers between that and Disassembled, if you even count Disassembled as a crossover). House of M didn't break into any of the ongoings really, either. The tie-ins were all their own seperate miniseries.

Civil War is the first company-wide crossover I recall in a LONG time (last one I can think of is Maximum Security, and that was only for one month and didn't even go everywhere). And given the plot of Civil War, it makes sense. Registration is something that effects EVERYONE in the Marvel Universe, it's not like it's a team up and the X-Men were just thrown in to increase sales or anything.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

Cough **wolverine fans** Cough

I'm sure you were there at every comic shop polling each purchase to find this out. So upset over a relative success of a run you dislike that you'd just slap on a nice generalization to justify it, smooth.

 

[gildea]

Cough **wolverine fans** Cough

the question in hand was only if people had seen the issue, wolverine fans still look at the comic I'm guessing. I think you've made the assumption I was making some sort of sales/quality argument, which I wasn't, perhaps reading the line of discussion may help next time?

 

[Artistsean]

One of the things I heard about Avengers was that when it was first started it was sort of a way to see all the big time heroes in one comic, more bang for your buck. So why not have Wolverine on the Avengers, he is a huge draw, why not have Spider-Man too.

Super powered registration is a huge deal, I just hadn't heard what Civil War was about other than the whole Marvel universe was involved and fighting each other.
I meant not just Marvel, but also DC, how they are putting out huge stories that are so epic. and then once that story is done another one starts.

 

[Elijya]

One of the things I heard about Avengers was that when it was first started it was sort of a way to see all the big time heroes in one comic, more bang for your buck. So why not have Wolverine on the Avengers, he is a huge draw, why not have Spider-Man too.

True, that was the reason for their original creation (mainly because of publishing and time constraints. Stan's got a dozen hit characters, it's much easier to throw a few of them into one book so he doesn't have to write as many seperate stories) But it took no time after the original Avengers began for the book to develope it's own style, and eventually legacy.