Ms. Marvel in the works? - Part 1

[The Strategos]

Superman and Batman wear capes! I mean, I agree they are a bit dumb but I thing that before we have a go at SASHES I think Superman's cape needs looking at ! Also, I think Human Torch makes a very good point.

 

[flickchick85]

This is the best post I've read on the subject of superheroine costumes on this site.

Aw, thanks guys. Guess I was just in an usually soapbox-y mood, lol.

Ms. Marvel is a powerful character physically, but her power is undercut by the exploitative nature of her costume. To me, it's not even that her costume is sexy; Black Widow's outfit is just as sexy, if not more so. But the difference between Carol Danvers' getup and Natasha Romanova's is that the latter is actually functional and practical as well as attractive. The Widow's uniform is something an athletic woman might choose to wear in a fight, whereas Ms. Marvel's is something designed solely for display.


The character's suit was redesigned in the comics, and I would be willing to bet that was a conscious decision by Marvel -- the studio, not the clueless comics division. They realize that they need to rehabilitate Ms. Marvel's image into something that's better suited for the movie universe. There is no reason why the studio wouldn't use her current Captain Marvel costume instead of the thong swimsuit costume of old.

And I also agree with all of this.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I had no idea the world of Super Hero costumes had gone so PC.

In any case,I still say if a superheroine can't have bare legs in a costume,then we should ban female athletes who are not covered from neck to toe.

If they get over-heated during their strenuous activity,then it's too bad!If it's good enough for Ms Marvel,it's good enough for Venus Williams!

We have in image to uphold!

Truth !

But if She-Hulk's costume is accepted then I'm willing to let go of the thigh high boots and dominatrix gloves for Ms. Marvel and have here wear something similar to She-Hulk.

So basically strip her down even more :P

It's just that I'll shoot myself if I see another superheroine wear a black catsuit. Anne Hathaway's catwoman was the last I'll have of that.

 

[Dark Raven]

For me? Absolutely acceptable. Swimsuits, and other sleeveless legless getups are used for athletic reasons in addition to just advertising sex. So it's not really all that relevant what posters here think, we know, in an athletic context, such a thing is considered practical, so all we would need to do is put the heroine in an athletic context, and it would be perceived just like an olympians outfit.

Contrast with thigh high boots, which we know are exclusively associated with advertising sex. (Still waiting for counterexamples, though). And the issue is not trashiness, at least not to me. Many monogomous women use thigh boots to get kinky with their mates, as well. It's not so much that it's necessarily trashy, but it makes a character who is not about sex appear to be about sex, which, even if the story is great and the character is taken seriously despite the costume - with it's origins in T&A devoid of character arc and not radically updated for modern times like every other movie character's costume - still creates a lower quality film because the story of the costume doesn't match the story of the character, because the costume was designed and popularized when the character had no story other than being raped and gawked at. But it is more likely that when the poster comes out, people will associate Ms. Marvel with Barb Wire or CINO or Stripperella or other superheroines who's main selling point is sex - and that is where the classic costume comes from, when that was her main selling point - and will react accordingly, which means watching it in some cheap way at some later time from some titilation rather than showing up at the midnight release to see an incredible superhero.

The problem with Barb Wire and these other sex-associated things is that the heroine is often in black leather. Those two things, combined with thigh-high boots often conjures up the idea of sex immediately. If you give Carol her original Kree costume or the Moonstone variant, it's automatically a different colour scheme and won't immediately conjure up associations with Barb Wire. Also, it will be a refreshing change from yet another female in a black catsuit.

Plus if she has barer legs, she will look more like an athlete. They could explain the reason she does have bare skin exposed is for the same reason athletes and swimmers do. It's more comfortable and possibly more aerodynamic. Maybe a full body catsuit would get too hot for her, especially when flying, as she doesn't have a cooling system like Iron Man's armour.

 

[cherokeesam]

Can you name one single poster who said audiences would be offended? I'll wait...

...

...the only thing that offends me is you using these ad hominem arguments, where you baselessly characterize the individual in an emotional way that supports your point of view instead of addressing their intellectual points. I can't really point out how deplorable that habit is without being offensive myself, so I'll just leave that there and hope you pick it up.

You know, it used to be entertaining to have an intellectual discussion with you. I don't know where that side of you went, but now there's nothing left but ********-edness and defensive self-consciousness on your part. You twist the impersonal into the personal every ****in' time....nice work.

As for your point: Let's have a guy in a white sheet with a swastika cutting black people's heads off. There's no need to pre-emptively decide whether audiences will find it offensive.

First of all: find one example of a guy in a white sheet with a swastika cutting black people's heads off in the annals of superhero comics. I'll wait....

Oh, and if by some chance you *do* find an example, then find one example outside of the frickin' KKK of some filmmaker who'd be colossally ignorant enough to put up a few hundred million dollars to make such a movie and expect some sort of return on it.

Ms. Marvel's comic was not created to be patently offensive. It's not a goddamn porno mag. Kids read it, and have read it for decades, and I haven't seen ONE instance of Gloria Steinem going out and marching in the streets to protest Carol Danvers' goddamn swimsuit. Hell, in terms of superheroine costumes, Ms. Marvel's has ALWAYS been considered more subdued and conservative. Shows one HELL of a lot less skin and sex than Wonder Woman, Starfire, Moondragon, Gamora, Emma Frost, Vampirella, Phantom Lady, Black Cat, Shanna the She-Devil, Sheena Queen of the Jungle, Witchblade, Power Girl, Red Sonja, Black Canary, Zatanna, Catwoman or even Xena freakin' Warrior Princess.

This is not some big mystery. This is: What do people exclusively associate these things with? How do they react to those things? Is it with admiration and respect due a super hero or is it with lust and gawking due a pin up girl? It's relatively simple, it's not guesswork. It's not something that filmmakers don't already do. Oh, oh! Let's do the Marcus/Immortus rape storyline. Let audiences decide for themselves!

Let's use the left sides of our brains instead of our right for a while, and see what we come up with..

Yeah. Why don't you do that for a change?
But nah....Doc knows what's best for America. Glad you've got a finger on the moral pulse of the nation there, Cotton Mather.

 

[marcvader]

Ms Marvel's black and gold costume hasn't stuck? I'd hardly call it some obscure outfit which she wore on one or two occasions before giving up. It's a long standing look. Otherwise we could say that Iron Man's classic red and gold from the 70s hasn't stuck. He had that for over 100 issues. He might not have it now, but it was around a long time. Same with Carol's Warbird outfit.

Not once did I say it was an obscure look. Just stating the use of Iconic in relation to that outfit is just wrong. The comparison to IM is also grossly wrong. While IM has looked relatively the same with the same color scheme but varying details for over 300+ comics, his title, Avengers, Tales of Suspense. Ms. Marvel on the other hand has had a couple moonstone suits and the black swimsuit, the one that lasted the longest, for what 50 issues and other Avengers related books and now has completely changed again. Again, I repeat her look is not iconic.

 

[DrCosmic]

Edit: shortening my responses to Sam.

You know, it used to be entertaining to have an intellectual discussion with you. I don't know where that side of you went, but now there's nothing left but ********-edness and defensive self-consciousness on your part. You twist the impersonal into the personal every ****in' time....nice work.

So in short, you can't find anyone who said audiences would be offended. Cool.

First of all: find one example of a guy in a white sheet with a swastika cutting black people's heads off in the annals of superhero comics. I'll wait....

Oh, and if by some chance you *do* find an example, then find one example outside of the frickin' KKK of some filmmaker who'd be colossally ignorant enough to put up a few hundred million dollars to make such a movie and expect some sort of return on it.

Ms. Marvel's comic was not created to be patently offensive. It's not a goddamn porno mag. Kids read it, and have read it for decades, and I haven't seen ONE instance of Gloria Steinem going out and marching in the streets to protest Carol Danvers' goddamn swimsuit. Hell, in terms of superheroine costumes, Ms. Marvel's has ALWAYS been considered more subdued and conservative. Shows one HELL of a lot less skin and sex than Wonder Woman, Starfire, Moondragon, Gamora, Emma Frost, Vampirella, Phantom Lady, Black Cat, Shanna the She-Devil, Sheena Queen of the Jungle, Witchblade, Power Girl, Red Sonja, Black Canary, Zatanna, Catwoman or even Xena freakin' Warrior Princess.

Your point was that we cannot decide if the audience will think something is offensive pre-emptively. I gave an example that shows that you most certainly can.

Yeah. Why don't you do that for a change?
But nah....Doc knows what's best for America. Glad you've got a finger on the moral pulse of the nation there, Cotton Mather.

Morality??? The idea that thigh high boots are explicitly associated with sex and kink is published on wikipedia, the fact that people judge superheroes by their costumes is an observable phenomenon in common discourse, threads on this site and featurettes on any CBM DVD. I simply connect the two and say: Oh, if we put her in kinky boots, people will think of her as kinky for kink, just like if we put Thor in warrior clothes people will think of him as a warrior for war. That's an intellectual point based on what we know about public perception from multiple sources. My thoughts on the matter, as usual, are irrelevant to the conclusion. This is the case I have made, repeatedly, against the Warbird costume on film.

It has not met counterpoint. At best "it's just absurd that a few inches of fabric can make her not look trashy"- not that it's not true, but one poster just refused to believe that small things can make a big difference.

The problem with Barb Wire and these other sex-associated things is that the heroine is often in black leather. Those two things, combined with thigh-high boots often conjures up the idea of sex immediately. If you give Carol her original Kree costume or the Moonstone variant, it's automatically a different colour scheme and won't immediately conjure up associations with Barb Wire. Also, it will be a refreshing change from yet another female in a black catsuit.

Plus if she has barer legs, she will look more like an athlete. They could explain the reason she does have bare skin exposed is for the same reason athletes and swimmers do. It's more comfortable and possibly more aerodynamic. Maybe a full body catsuit would get too hot for her, especially when flying, as she doesn't have a cooling system like Iron Man's armour.

I agree with the first paragraph. The Barb Wire comment refers specifically to the Warbird costume, and it doesn't require black leather to be perceived the same way either.

I think the explanation of heat is a bit silly, as the costume is not thick enough to cause a heat problem. When flying at high altitudes you'd have to explain how she doesn't freeze to death since she doesn't have armor and is not Asgardian. The only natural rationale is that she gets the costume from Mar-Vell or from the Kree, meaning if you want Carol with bare legs, you're probably going to want to show the Kree soldiers with bare legs as well. And you'll have to address, either in dialogue or exposition the fact that bare legs all the time is something that's a little embarrassing, and not really a good idea for someone who gets in a lot of fights. But it can be done.

Not once did I say it was an obscure look. Just stating the use of Iconic in relation to that outfit is just wrong. The comparison to IM is also grossly wrong. While IM has looked relatively the same with the same color scheme but varying details for over 300+ comics, his title, Avengers, Tales of Suspense. Ms. Marvel on the other hand has had a couple moonstone suits and the black swimsuit, the one that lasted the longest, for what 50 issues and other Avengers related books and now has completely changed again. Again, I repeat her look is not iconic.

I would agree with this, though I think the IM comparison is a great parallel in terms of the classic costume never seeing filming for many of the same reasons, but fans put the world iconic on things just because they last long, and that's not really accurate.

 

[Chewy]

Doesn't sound fair to me at all. It's not about "finding out what audiences will find offensive." Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's about, I dunno, taking the high road and giving a rare cinematic female superhero a costume that's not exploitative and degrading. I don't give a s*** about what audiences will or won't think. The target demo would probably love a Ms. Marvel dressed for Baywatch. Might even bring in the big bucks. Doesn't make it right or any less gross and male gaze-y. Ms. Marvel deserves better. Women deserve better from Hollywood in general. We're slowly and steadily making progress in the fight against the casual misogyny in our pop culture. Finally giving us an A-list powerful female cinematic superhero like Ms. Marvel and then putting her in that trashy as hell costume (especially when there are other, less exploitative options that would still be comics-accurate that they could use) would just be 2 steps back, imo.

I have no problem with the black and gold look, except for the fact that she's wearing a damn swimsuit, for no other reason than showing some skin for the fanboys. No self-respecting woman would choose that for a "uniform" to fight evil in unless men chose it for her. Give her pants, and I'm good. You still get the "iconic" black w/ the lightning bolt, the mask and the sash, while the character gets her dignity. THAT sounds fair to me.

This is the best post I've read on the subject of superheroine costumes on this site. Ms. Marvel is a powerful character physically, but her power is undercut by the exploitative nature of her costume. To me, it's not even that her costume is sexy; Black Widow's outfit is just as sexy, if not more so. But the difference between Carol Danvers' getup and Natasha Romanova's is that the latter is actually functional and practical as well as attractive. The Widow's uniform is something an athletic woman might choose to wear in a fight, whereas Ms. Marvel's is something designed solely for display.


The character's suit was redesigned in the comics, and I would be willing to bet that was a conscious decision by Marvel -- the studio, not the clueless comics division. They realize that they need to rehabilitate Ms. Marvel's image into something that's better suited for the movie universe. There is no reason why the studio wouldn't use her current Captain Marvel costume instead of the thong swimsuit costume of old.


Question: Did any opponent ever catch Danvers by that stupid sash and slam her her around with it? If not, someone should have. Sashes and capes are totally impractical. Anyone stupid enough to wear one deserves the consequences.

And it's adorable that some of y'all keep characterizing people who want her to wear something respectable as "offended by skin" or "prudes".

 

[Chewy]

Ms. Marvel's comic was not created to be patently offensive. It's not a goddamn porno mag. Kids read it, and have read it for decades, and I haven't seen ONE instance of Gloria Steinem going out and marching in the streets to protest Carol Danvers' goddamn swimsuit. Hell, in terms of superheroine costumes, Ms. Marvel's has ALWAYS been considered more subdued and conservative. Shows one HELL of a lot less skin and sex than Wonder Woman, Starfire, Moondragon, Gamora, Emma Frost, Vampirella, Phantom Lady, Black Cat, Shanna the She-Devil, Sheena Queen of the Jungle, Witchblade, Power Girl, Red Sonja, Black Canary, Zatanna, Catwoman or even Xena freakin' Warrior Princess.

Yes, superhero comics as a whole have always treated women as objects for ogling instead of three dimensional characters. And for the most part the medium has been aimed squarely at a male readership. That's changing, finally.

Joss Whedon said at comic con a few months ago that he goes to comic con every year looking to buy a statue of a female superhero that doesn't look like a porn star posing. Said he had yet to see a single one.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Joss Whedon said at comic con a few months ago that he goes to comic con every year looking to buy a statue of a female superhero that doesn't look like a porn star posing. Said he had yet to see a single one.

Then Whedon is a damn liar. I've never been to Comic con but off the top of my head I can think of a Sideshow Collectible She-Hulk statue that's always at Comic Con that has her just standing there with clenched fists. If you think of porn when you see that then you have issues.

There are plenty of non pornographic statues availiable. It's just a question of what you consider porn.

 

[Chewy]

I can't speak to what he did or didn't see. And he was obviously exaggerating to an extent. But arguing the specifics of the statement is kind of missing the point, that 90% of all female superhero stuff looks like it's drawn exclusively for 15 year old boys.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I can't speak to what he did or didn't see. And he was obviously exaggerating to an extent. But arguing the specifics of the statement is kind of missing the point, that 90% of all female superhero stuff looks like it's drawn exclusively for 15 year old boys.

I don't know if I'd go that far. If you're just arguing skintight outfits then you might as well include the vast percentage of male characters too.

And while there are chicks that are drawn with lots of skin showing there are plenty who wear full or very near full outfits - Storm, Phoenix, Rogue, Wasp, Black Widow

 

[Chewy]

Not just how much clothes they're wearing, sometimes it comes down to how broken their spine appears to be

 

[Whiskey Tango]

*Liefeld whistles innocently*

 

[Chewy]

I'm not even sure why the idea angers some fans so? The character will still be sexy; they'll hire an attractive actress and the outfit will be a generally snug fit. All superhero costumes are. It would just be nice if it was something someone would actually choose to wear, something that looks functional and not embarrassing.

like how Sif looked like this:

instead of this:

 

[Dark Raven]

Sif could've worked like her comic counterpart, since she's an Asgardian and wears more barbarian-looking clothing. She should've had the headdress certainly. I think she just looked bland in Thor.

 

[DrCosmic]

Edit: -sigh-

 

[Chewy]

The funny thing is that's not how Sif was drawn in the issue. She looked like this

They just put that on the cover... to entice 15 year old boys into buying it.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm not even sure why the idea angers some fans so? The character will still be sexy; they'll hire an attractive actress and the outfit will be a generally snug fit. All superhero costumes are. It would just be nice if it was something someone would actually choose to wear, something that looks functional and not embarrassing.

Exactly. The films all have consistent rational storyline reasons why the characters wear what they wear. Why people feel a need to pass panties of as 'barbaric' or thigh highs off as 'fitting in with Captain America' I can't fathom.

 

[KangConquers]

*Liefeld whistles innocently*

I was in the doctor's office an hour ago, and they had a wall poster with different spinal disorders. One of them looked exactly like this, and the first thing I thought of was Rob Liefeld.

 

[Doc Ock]

I was in the doctor's office an hour ago, and they had a wall poster with different spinal disorders. One of them looked exactly like this, and the first thing I thought of was Rob Liefeld.

And thats the saddest thing I've heard all day. The Marvel universe is full of female characters with spinal disorders.

 

[Human Torch]

Truth !


It's just that I'll shoot myself if I see another superheroine wear a black catsuit. Anne Hathaway's catwoman was the last I'll have of that.

This.

Basically all creativity has been drawn out of superheroine costumes.Every one will have the same generic back jumpsuit at the rate we're going.

 

[Human Torch]

Sif could've worked like her comic counterpart, since she's an Asgardian and wears more barbarian-looking clothing. She should've had the headdress certainly. I think she just looked bland in Thor.

I agree,this was a good chance for something a little more diverse.(Since Sif comes from a different culture) Instead we get a slightly more colorful version of "same old,same old".

 

[Dark Raven]

I agree,this was a good chance for something a little more diverse.(Since Sif comes from a different culture) Instead we get a slightly more colorful version of "same old,same old".

Yep. Superheroine costumes are the equivalent of men's formal clothing while Superhero costumes are like women's dresses - they have much more variety, styles and colours whereas all superheroines seem to be able to wear are the equivalent of dark business suits.

 

[Chewy]

This.

Basically all creativity has been drawn out of superheroine costumes.Every one will have the same generic back jumpsuit at the rate we're going.

So a generic black jumpsuit with stripper boots instead of pants is your idea of creativity?