The Dark Knight Rises Nolan...add Robin!!!!!! - Part 1

[Yurka]

Very few characters need a depiction of their origin, but Robin would be one of them if he's ever included in a Batman film. I can't fathom how he could be part of the story without some kind of backstory build up. At the very least you'd have to take time establishing the beginnings of his relationship with Batman (stop laughing at the back there, that's not what I meant) and for the sake of this thread I don't see TDKR really having that kind of time.

Exactly. With Bane and Catwoman, and most likely Bane having an "origin" story, I highly doubt Robin is in it.

 

[Saint]

Theres a difference though whenever its a villain or a random unknown childs origin,

No, I don't think there is. What how is a villain any less "random" or "unknown?"

but when it involves such a beloved character as Batman, then including another vigilante so similar to team up with him just seems like it steals some of his thunder.

Why? This seems to be entirely dependent on how it is written. If it's not written that way, it will not be that way.

Robin = Less screen time for Batman in the end.

Yeah, I'm not really bothered if Batman looses a couple minutes screentime if it informs his larger story, the same way I wasn't bothered when he "lost" screentime to Joker or Harvey Dent. He's going to have plenty of time regardless.

 

[Saint]

Very few characters need a depiction of their origin, but Robin would be one of them if he's ever included in a Batman film. I can't fathom how he could be part of the story without some kind of backstory build up. At the very least you'd have to take time establishing the beginnings of his relationship with Batman (stop laughing at the back there, that's not what I meant) and for the sake of this thread I don't see TDKR really having that kind of time.

Again, what you call "Robin's origin" I would simply call the story of the movie. I don't know, people seem to have this idea that when you start calling it an origin, it becomes this sectioned-off, separate thing that's removed from the rest of the story and starts interfering with things. It's not like that. In Batman Begins, there was no "Origin section" that ended and then allowed the real movie to start; it was all one story. Equally, The Dark Knight didn't have an "Origin of Two-Face" sequence; no, Harvey's journey to becoming Two-Face was seamlessly integrated into the larger story. Again, it wasn't an origin, it was simply the story.

Structurally, the story of Robin could be employed almost identically to the story of Harvey Dent.

Don't mistake me: I don't believe there's any chance Robin is in this film, certainly not with Catwoman and Bane already in it. I'm just explaining that including a character doesn't mean that character's origin has to hijack the movie.

 

[Saint]

I still say nay.

I say hold off till Nolan is done with his 3 arch, then bring in the little dude.

Guillermo delt Toro, man, Guillermo del Toro could do it.

 

[Yurka]

No, I don't think there is. What how is a villain any less "random" or "unknown?"

When its a villains origin, you get the other side of the spectrum, what went wrong, what their motivation is, why they have to battle whoever, etc. A good villain is essential to these movies, so placing them in a position opposite of the protagonist via an origin is a great way to set up their rivalry.

Why? This seems to be entirely dependent on how it is written. If it's not written that way, it will not be that way.

Of course it depends on how its written, but like it was said earlier, I cant imagine Robin being introduced without an origin story. Since Robin's on the same side as Batman, it would just seem to dilute Batman's story.

Yeah, I'm not really bothered if Batman looses a couple minutes screentime if it informs his larger story, the same way I wasn't bothered when he "lost" screentime to Joker or Harvey Dent. He's going to have plenty of time regardless.

Yea Im fine with villains origin stories too. Bane will most likely have one, so I cant see Robin having one, therefore being in the movie in any capacity.

 

[Saint]

When its a villains origin, you get the other side of the spectrum, what went wrong, what their motivation is, why they have to battle whoever, etc. A good villain is essential to these movies, so placing them in a position opposite of the protagonist via an origin is a great way to set up their rivalry.

A "good villain" is no more "essential" to these movies than good supporting characters are. Furthermore, the development of such a supporting character is comparably valuable--he simply serves a different role and brings different elements to the table.

Of course it depends on how its written, but like it was said earlier, I cant imagine Robin being introduced without an origin story. Since Robin's on the same side as Batman, it would just seem to dilute Batman's story.

On the contrary; Robin's presence progresses and informs Batman's story, the same way all of his important supporting characters do.

It's not necessary to keep telling me that you are unable to imagine a way in which to include Robin; I understand that. It is the job of creators, however, to imagine and implement these things--and if I can imagine a way to do it (and I can), then I have no doubt that filmmakers who are more talented than I can also imagine a way to do it.

 

[RustyCage]

Guillermo delt Toro, man, Guillermo del Toro could do it.

God damn, why did I not consider that before?

Yes. Very yes.

 

[FCEEVIPER]

Guillermo delt Toro, man, Guillermo del Toro could do it.

I also believe Del Torro can.

I just think Nolan won't and shouldn't really bring him in yet.

 

[Yurka]

A "good villain" is no more "essential" to these movies than good supporting characters are. Furthermore, the development of such a supporting character is comparably valuable--he simply serves a different role and brings different elements to the table.

The two most important characters in most superhero adaptations are the hero and villain. Call them A and B. The rest of the supporting cast fit into other groups.When you have more than one person in the A-group, who are fighting for the same outcome, I dont see how it can't dilute the other heroes stories. It will be interesting though with Catwoman since I imagine she will dabble on both sides.

It's not necessary to keep telling me that you are unable to imagine a way in which to include Robin; I understand that. It is the job of creators, however, to imagine and implement these things--and if I can imagine a way to do it (and I can), then I have no doubt that filmmakers who are more talented than I can also imagine a way to do it.

Its not that I cant imagine a way to do it, its just that the majority doesnt want to see it so whats the point? It doesnt make sense to include him with all the other current pieces.

 

[DaveMoral]

I hate to say but Batman Forever is a decent example of at least two ideas going around here. Because Harvey Dent was changed from Lando Calrissian to Tommy Lee Jones in that movie you actually did have a cordoned off "origin" of Two-Face montage. That was lame as can be. You walk into this movie and he's an established villain, which wouldn't be bad but for the obligatory origin story section. However, Dick Grayson's entrance into the story was part of the story and the movie was no more about Dick Grayson than it was about Batman/Bruce Wayne. In fact, he was part of Batman/BW's story in that film. In fact, his story echoed and informed Bruce's.

It's a generally bad movie, but the origins of Robin were organically part of the story, unlike the origins of Two-Face. Furthermore, the mere presence of Robin did not take away screen time from Batman.

If that was at least organically part of the story of Batman being told there, Nolan could do so much better. Without a doubt. He just doesn't want to. It's not because it can't be done. And frankly, I think his reluctance to tackle the character is because he doesn't get him either or how integral he really is to Batman's journey and humanity.

 

[DaveMoral]

woops

 

[El Payaso]

Guillermo delt Toro, man, Guillermo del Toro could do it.

Ahhh, yes. Del Toro is a visual delight. And then not much else.

 

[Secret Fawful]

Del Toro is a true fanboy. Because of that, he understands his material and knows how to give fans something awesome. Maybe not true-to-source, but awesome. Del Toro made Blade succeed where Goyer failed, and I think that he could do Batman and Robin more justice than Goyer has under Nolan, and Goyer has done a brilliant job under Nolan. Del Toro could do even better. He would know how to do a great Batsuit, Batcave, gadgets, acrobatic action, everything. He would do things artistically very much like the comics but with his own unique flair. Plus we'd probably get Doug Jones as The Scarecrow or something. Who wouldn't love that? However, I doubt he would do it. He has too much on his plate.

 

[Saint]

The two most important characters in most superhero adaptations are the hero and villain. Call them A and B. The rest of the supporting cast fit into other groups.When you have more than one person in the A-group, who are fighting for the same outcome, I dont see how it can't dilute the other heroes stories.

Gordon and Dent were no less heroes in that film than Batman was (though Harvey lost his way in the end), and they absolutely did not "dilute" the story; it seems to me that you simply put them in a different group because they don't wear masks. It really doesn't work that way. You haven't sufficiently explained what quality Robin possesses that makes him different from these other characters in a way that "dilutes" anything.

I think your analysis of how superhero adaptations are supposed to work is limited and simplistic. Whether a character "dilutes' a story has absolutely nothing to do with whether he's the second hero or the third hero or the tenth hero of the piece; it's determined by how the story is structured and how the character functions within it.

Consider that no competent writer says "I want Two-Face, he's cool!" and shoehorns him into a story where he doesn't fit; they design a story where he does fit. Dent had a purpose in that story; his role strengthened the story of Bruce Wayne, it contributed, and the same would be true of a quality adaption of Robin. The writer builds a story where these characters serve a purpose and strengthen the narrative--so that, no, they do not "dilute" it.

Its not that I cant imagine a way to do it,

It isn't? It seems like what you keep telling me is that you can't see how to do it.

its just that the majority doesnt want to see it so whats the point?

The audience doesn't know what it wants, which is why it's the audience, and not the artist. The audience probably thinks that a lot of ideas are bad, simply because they lack the creative talent to conceive of how those ideas can be made to work. That's why the artist is there, to show the audience what it couldn't think of on it's own.

It doesnt make sense to include him with all the other current pieces.

I am not talking about including him in The Dark Knight Rises, since we already know he won't be in it. He could have been, though that likely would have been a very different movie than the one that appears to be taking shape. I'm talking about a purely hypothetical film.

 

[LokiDionysos]

I really only feel Robin would fit in this movie as a young child who Bruce adopts over the course of the movie. And it sure wouldn't be JGL. I think it's appropriate and very possible given that we'll most likely see Bane wearing down Batman over a long period of time, as Selina Kyle's criminality increases or decreases depending on what happens. But the tone of the films almost demands that Robin would have to have a proper origin. I like the idea of Bruce adopting him at the end or something or just dealing with a young rebellious Dick Grayson that gets kidnapped or something, then in the end he surprises us by helping out in someway (Make him take down JGL's character).
Just a thought but what if those Robin's Cave rumors don't indicate Robin but instead Robin William's Aka Faux Batman's base of operations or "Cave" hence Robin [William's] Cave [hideout].

 

[RustyCage]

Ahhh, yes. Del Toro is a visual delight. And then not much else.

Disagree.

 

[Grayson]

This is an origin trilogy.
He won't bring in Robin.
Dick Grayson shouldn't make an appearance until the '6th' movie (Warners wants to do 7).

 

[Drz]

This is an origin trilogy.
He won't bring in Robin.

Why not? Why can't Robin be part of the origin trilogy whatsoever?

 

[hatebox]

Again, what you call "Robin's origin" I would simply call the story of the movie. I don't know, people seem to have this idea that when you start calling it an origin, it becomes this sectioned-off, separate thing that's removed from the rest of the story and starts interfering with things. It's not like that. In Batman Begins, there was no "Origin section" that ended and then allowed the real movie to start; it was all one story.

Not sure I'd agree with that - I like Batman Begins as much as the next guy, but there was a significant shift in tone between him prior to becoming Batman and him being Batman. It'd be almost impossible for there not to be. Even Nolan has half-joked that Begins did most of the legwork so now they could have 'real fun' with TDK.

To be honest, unless Nolan shocks everyone and decides to bring in Robin, I don't really have the energy to talk about it at length because this thread seems to only be concerned with the possibility of Robin being in TDKR. After TDKR, the prospect of Robin may become a very real, and I'll come back to discuss him in those terms.

 

[The Englishman]

This is an origin trilogy.
He won't bring in Robin.
Dick Grayson shouldn't make an appearance until the '6th' movie (Warners wants to do 7).

How do you know they want to do 7?

 

[Sloth7d]

Anybody remember how in Lucky # Slevin

Spoiler

Bruce Willis, feeling pity for an orphaned child, takes him under his wing and teaches him his ways so as to take revenge on his enemies when he grew up. I don't see why this can't be handled something like that. Skip the boy wonder stuff, as he's being trained in his youth, and go straight to Nightwing. Or maybe it can be handled from a protege/replacement angle like with Terry in Batman Beyond.

 

[Saint]

Not sure I'd agree with that - I like Batman Begins as much as the next guy, but there was a significant shift in tone between him prior to becoming Batman and him being Batman. It'd be almost impossible for there not to be.

Well, tone isn't really want I'm talking about--I'm talking about a singular narrative. Superficially, maybe the first half appears different from the second half, but narratively, no. Everything flows out of the first half and into the ending; it's one story and you can't break it up with losing the whole thing.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

How do you know they want to do 7?

There was an interview with someone from WB, from the beginning of last year iirc, where he said they wanted to do 7 BM movies. But i think it was just an offhand comment, as he was thinking along the lines of how many Harry Potter movies they were planning on doing at that point. ie 'If we can do that many HP, we can do that many BM movies.' So, not a serious remark i thought.
They will just continue making them as long as they are successful. I imagine we would have got an unbroken stream of Batman movies if B&R had not been so bad.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Anybody remember how in Lucky # Slevin

Spoiler

Bruce Willis, feeling pity for an orphaned child, takes him under his wing and teaches him his ways so as to take revenge on his enemies when he grew up. I don't see why this can't be handled something like that. Skip the boy wonder stuff, as he's being trained in his youth, and go straight to Nightwing. Or maybe it can be handled from a protege/replacement angle like with Terry in Batman Beyond.

I thought i had bet 100 bucks on whether someone would suggest Nightwing again, but no, i bet 100 bucks that someone would reference Nolan's pre BB statement that he wouldnt adapt Robin. I should have bet on this as well. I should have known...

 

[Sloth7d]

I thought i had bet 100 bucks on whether someone would suggest Nightwing again, but no, i bet 100 bucks that someone would reference Nolan's pre BB statement that he wouldnt adapt Robin. I should have bet on this as well. I should have known...

Lol. Sorry to let you down.