The Dark Knight Rises TDKR SPOILERS (read at your own risk) - Part 5

[Micromind]

I don't consider myself a fanboy and I really enjoyed TDK without nitpicking about anything, but I certainly believe that TDKR didn't make as much sense as the previous movie. With TDK, I believe Noland did something amazing to the Batman saga, he took Begins and made it something totally new. Of course it has its flaws and everything, and you surely needed suspension of disbelief in some cases, but it was coherent to this so called "reality angle". With TDKR, after my second and third watch in theaters, I can't say the same...And it's not about minor issues as Batman escaping the bomb, I'm fine with it. No, I really missed something, and I really believe there are some serious plot holes and things that just didn't make sense in Nolanverse. That being said I really enjoyed the movie, but c'mon guys, there's no reason to avoid criticism and get or religious about it or to condemn it. That's the place I belong, as Bruce Wayne said, between Nolan blind fanboys and nerd nitpickers.

TDK was a straightforward story without any time jumps, in TDKR there is an eight year gap right before the movie starts (from the events that happened in TDK).

When Bruce is in the pit, he spends three months in that prison but we are not given enough prison scenes to judge that, that is just indicated, when Bruce escapes from the prison he takes a few days to reach Gotham, again this is not shown but implied, when he finally reaches Gotham, we see that snow is falling, it is a winter season, which shows that it has been at least 3 months from the time Bane took control of the City, it is again not shown explicitly but we have to deduce that.

Then there are plot points that connect to Batman Begins (and flashbacks from BB and TDK) which make it somewhat difficult to understand the story if someone has not seen that movie.

so, compared to TDK it is more complex story in terms of structure.

 

[tdeverea]

TDK was a straightforward story without any time jumps, in TDKR there is an eight year gap right before the movie starts (from the events that happened in TDK).

When Bruce is in the pit, he spends three months in that prison but we are not given enough prison scenes to judge that, that is just indicated, when Bruce escapes from the prison he takes a few days to reach Gotham, again this is not shown but implied, when he finally reaches Gotham, we see that snow is falling, it is a winter season, which shows that it has been at least 3 months from the time Bane took control of the City, it is again not shown explicitly but we have to deduce that.

Then there are plot points that connect to Batman Begins (and flashbacks from BB and TDK) which make it somewhat difficult to understand the story if someone has not seen that movie.

so, compared to TDK it is more complex story in terms of structure.

I thought it was mentioned in the dialog of the movie that he was away from Gotham for 5 months. Did I imagine that? Someone help me out.

 

[JTStarkiller]

I thought it was mentioned in the dialog of the movie that he was away from Gotham for 5 months. Did I imagine that? Someone help me out.

Yeah, Bane mentions it when they're taking the bomb out of the reactor.

BANE: 5, by my calculations.

 

[Syncope]

"So you came back to die with your city?"
"No, I came to stop you."

Worst line in the whole trilogy. It's like the writers just couldn't be arsed putting any thought into Batman's reply there.

 

[Robin91939]

I thought it was mentioned in the dialog of the movie that he was away from Gotham for 5 months. Did I imagine that? Someone help me out.

There are a LOT of things that indicate the passage of time as Bruce is in the prison.

1- Bane says that the bomb will take 5 months to detonate on its own. Bruce is in the Pit even BEFORE the day that Bane attacks the Gotham Rogue's stadium, and returns with about 18 hours to stop the bomb.

2- Fox says tells the Special Forces that the bomb is going to go off in 23 days.

3- Gordon states at one point that, "The bomb goes off tomorrow, we have about eighteen hours."

4- I hope I am recalling the number correctly, but on the TV screen in the pit, when the Special Forces are shown hanging from the bridge it says, "Day 84" of the Gotham siege. Bruce escapes from the Pit very soon after. 84 days is about a week shy of 3 months. Bruce attempts the climb on day 84, fails and then speaks with the medicine man about fear -- then attempts the climb again -- it is even implied that he attempts on the same day as while he's lying there, broken and tired the man says, "the climb again." And that it isn't about his body being strong enough -- it's about his mind and soul being strong. It can be assumed that Bruce escapes on the 83-85th day of Gotham's Occupation.

5- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow." Assuming Bruce escaped the Pit on the 84th-85th day of Occupation, after being in it about 3 months, and returns on the eve of detonation -- math says that it took him ABOUT 2 MONTHS to return to Gotham. That is hardly and easy trek or something that is "jarring."

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

 

[Figs]

There are a LOT of things that indicate the passage of time as Bruce is in the prison.

1- Bane says that the bomb will take 5 months to detonate on its own. Bruce is in the Pit even BEFORE the day that Bane attacks the Gotham Rogue's stadium, and returns with about 18 hours to stop the bomb.

2- Gordon states at one point that, "The bomb goes off tomorrow, we have about eighteen hours."

3- I hope I am recalling the number correctly, but on the TV screen in the pit, when the Special Forces are shown hanging from the bridge it says, "Day 83" of the Gotham siege. Bruce escapes from the Pit very soon after. 83 days is about a week shy of 3 months. Bruce attempts the climb on day 83, fails and then speaks with the medicine man about fear -- then attempts the climb again -- it is even implied that he attempts on the same day as while he's lying there, broken and tired the man says, "the climb again." And that it isn't about his body being strong enough -- it's about his mind and soul being strong. It can be assumed that Bruce escapes on the 83-85th day of Gotham's Occupation.

4- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow." Assuming Bruce escaped the Pit on the 83rd-85th day of Occupation, after being in it about 3 months, and returns on the eve of detonation -- math says that it took him ABOUT 2 MONTHS to return to Gotham. That is hardly and easy trek or something that is "jarring."

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

Exactly. Some of the complaints towards this movie were from people that didn't catch everything.

 

[J.Howlett]

There are a LOT of things that indicate the passage of time as Bruce is in the prison.

1- Bane says that the bomb will take 5 months to detonate on its own. Bruce is in the Pit even BEFORE the day that Bane attacks the Gotham Rogue's stadium, and returns with about 18 hours to stop the bomb.

2- Fox says tells the Special Forces that the bomb is going to go off in 23 days.

3- Gordon states at one point that, "The bomb goes off tomorrow, we have about eighteen hours."

4- I hope I am recalling the number correctly, but on the TV screen in the pit, when the Special Forces are shown hanging from the bridge it says, "Day 84" of the Gotham siege. Bruce escapes from the Pit very soon after. 84 days is about a week shy of 3 months. Bruce attempts the climb on day 84, fails and then speaks with the medicine man about fear -- then attempts the climb again -- it is even implied that he attempts on the same day as while he's lying there, broken and tired the man says, "the climb again." And that it isn't about his body being strong enough -- it's about his mind and soul being strong. It can be assumed that Bruce escapes on the 83-85th day of Gotham's Occupation.

5- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow." Assuming Bruce escaped the Pit on the 84th-85th day of Occupation, after being in it about 3 months, and returns on the eve of detonation -- math says that it took him ABOUT 2 MONTHS to return to Gotham. That is hardly and easy trek or something that is "jarring."

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

Not to mention, after Bruce is strapped to the rope to fix his back for the first time, we cut to Bruce's feet before we see Bruce's hallucination of Ra's. When we do see his face, he has a full on beard. In the previous scene, he barely had one.

Not to also mention, the shot of the camouflage tumbler rolling down a snowy street.

 

[tdeverea]

There are a LOT of things that indicate the passage of time as Bruce is in the prison.

1- Bane says that the bomb will take 5 months to detonate on its own. Bruce is in the Pit even BEFORE the day that Bane attacks the Gotham Rogue's stadium, and returns with about 18 hours to stop the bomb.

2- Fox says tells the Special Forces that the bomb is going to go off in 23 days.

3- Gordon states at one point that, "The bomb goes off tomorrow, we have about eighteen hours."

4- I hope I am recalling the number correctly, but on the TV screen in the pit, when the Special Forces are shown hanging from the bridge it says, "Day 84" of the Gotham siege. Bruce escapes from the Pit very soon after. 84 days is about a week shy of 3 months. Bruce attempts the climb on day 84, fails and then speaks with the medicine man about fear -- then attempts the climb again -- it is even implied that he attempts on the same day as while he's lying there, broken and tired the man says, "the climb again." And that it isn't about his body being strong enough -- it's about his mind and soul being strong. It can be assumed that Bruce escapes on the 83-85th day of Gotham's Occupation.

5- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow." Assuming Bruce escaped the Pit on the 84th-85th day of Occupation, after being in it about 3 months, and returns on the eve of detonation -- math says that it took him ABOUT 2 MONTHS to return to Gotham. That is hardly and easy trek or something that is "jarring."

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

I recall ALL of this from the movie but thought I was imagining things when I read the complaints. I guess some viewers just don't pay attention or are misinterpreting details. Thanks!

 

[Travesty]

The passing of time was there in the movie, but just like Watchmen(the movie), the "doomsday countdown" wasn't really emphasized enough to make much of an impact. It just felt flat.

Something that I thought was completely missing from Watchmen compared to the book.

 

[Robin91939]

I recall ALL of this from the movie but thought I was imagining things when I read the complaints. I guess some viewers just don't pay attention or are misinterpreting details. Thanks!

Yeah. It seems that MUCH of the complaints of this film are easily explained away.

Yes, this film has some issues -- but a lot of the issues people complain about aren't the issues that they should be complaining about... they complain about these details that are explained in the context of the film... for the most part.

-R

 

[Homer J. Fong]

Yeah. It seems that MUCH of the complaints of this film are easily explained away.

Yes, this film has some issues -- but a lot of the issues people complain about aren't the issues that they should be complaining about... they complain about these details that are explained in the context of the film... for the most part.

Yeah, I've been really surprised by how much of that I've been seeing.

 

[shauner111]

I dont even see the issues that people nitpick about. I thought it was very clear, there's no confused time jumps or anything. It really is like people don't pay attention or something.

I've seen it 3 times now. My third viewing (second in Imax) was last night. And i still have no clue what people are talking about. "This and that doesnt make sense!" or "There's so many plotholes!". Give me a break.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

The only things that I really had problems with:

-I'd have liked a better look/insight into the people of Gotham. Bane's plan depends so much on bringing them false hope, but how many of them have it? Batman's plan (obviously) depends on bringing them real hope, but did he do it? Of course he did, but I wish there was a better ground-level look at how he truly did bring that hope to the citizens of the city, just as I wish there'd been a better ground-level look at how Bane was bringing them that cruel false hope.

-The Bruce/Selina relationship is a little undercooked; what's there is great, in the acting and in the writing, but on both viewings, I couldn't help but think, "Really? You still trust her after she let Bane kill you? It's as simple as, 'I think you can be better'?" I understand the intent, but there's a leap of emotional logic there, and emotional logic is more important to me than practical logic.

-As I've said a bunch before, I have big problems with the idea of Bruce retiring as Batman after the night of Two-Face's death. I need to be able to imagine him going for a while after that, but still spending some years as a recluse.

And that's it for me. I don't need to know where Alfred goes when he leaves, because we're not supposed to know; I don't need a super-precise explanation of how Batman could have escaped the blast, because I'd rather have the suspense and the drama of it; I don't need to be shown Bruce's trip back to Gotham from the prison pit; I don't have questions about things that actually were explained, either visually or in dialogue, that are somehow "plot holes"; I don't have a problem with Talia and Bane waiting five months to set off the bomb, because (a) that's the point, it's a sustained torture, and a sustained torture isn't a sustained torture unless it's sustained, (b) my feeling like the logic of the psychotic terrorist villains is a bit odd feels like less a problem with the movie and more a sign that I'm not a psychotic terrorist, but most importantly, (c) it was compelling movie villain logic. Not enough of an insight into the people of Gotham, not quite enough Bruce/Selina or Batman/Catwoman, and a problematic execution of the eight-year exile aspect - those are my only problems with the movie. And I guess the Foley character - I don't see his purpose outside of being a cowardly counterpoint to the heroic Blake and Gordon, and the figure opposing Batman and his return. If that was his only point, that's cool. If there was something more there, (a) I haven't seen it, but (b) I'd be glad to be told what it is. But I don't have the plot hole problems that a lot of people do. I think too many nitpicks are being made out to be more than nitpicks. And it's not slavish devotion to Christopher Nolan or to this particular movie that has me saying all this; I did love it, I do think Nolan's a brilliant director, but those are my honest thoughts.

 

[Mad Love]

-The Bruce/Selina relationship is a little undercooked; what's there is great, in the acting and in the writing, but on both viewings, I couldn't help but think, "Really? You still trust her after she let Bane kill you? It's as simple as, 'I think you can be better'?" I understand the intent, but there's a leap of emotional logic there, and emotional logic is more important to me than practical logic.

I think you have to remember Bruce also had to live as a thief in Batman Begins, so he really sympathizes with her desperation. Her intention was to protect herself.

 

[Homer J. Fong]

I think you have to remember Bruce also had to live as a thief in Batman Begins, so he really sympathizes with her desperation. Her intention was to protect herself.

I hadn't thought about that, but that's a good point.

 

[The Guard]

5- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow."

I chuckled a little bit at that. That he managed to get back with exactly one day to spare.

 

[Atom Ant]

There are a LOT of things that indicate the passage of time as Bruce is in the prison.

1- Bane says that the bomb will take 5 months to detonate on its own. Bruce is in the Pit even BEFORE the day that Bane attacks the Gotham Rogue's stadium, and returns with about 18 hours to stop the bomb.

2- Fox says tells the Special Forces that the bomb is going to go off in 23 days.

3- Gordon states at one point that, "The bomb goes off tomorrow, we have about eighteen hours."

4- I hope I am recalling the number correctly, but on the TV screen in the pit, when the Special Forces are shown hanging from the bridge it says, "Day 84" of the Gotham siege. Bruce escapes from the Pit very soon after. 84 days is about a week shy of 3 months. Bruce attempts the climb on day 84, fails and then speaks with the medicine man about fear -- then attempts the climb again -- it is even implied that he attempts on the same day as while he's lying there, broken and tired the man says, "the climb again." And that it isn't about his body being strong enough -- it's about his mind and soul being strong. It can be assumed that Bruce escapes on the 83-85th day of Gotham's Occupation.

5- When Bruce returns to Gotham, you know -- the time he comes back and everyone says it took him like a hot minute to get there -- he tells Selina that the bomb goes off "Tomorrow." Assuming Bruce escaped the Pit on the 84th-85th day of Occupation, after being in it about 3 months, and returns on the eve of detonation -- math says that it took him ABOUT 2 MONTHS to return to Gotham. That is hardly and easy trek or something that is "jarring."

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

you're assuming that there was no lost time between the failed climb on day 84 and the last successful climb

 

[Robin91939]

I chuckled a little bit at that. That he managed to get back with exactly one day to spare.

Who's to say he came back the same day?

He was changed and clean shaven. He could have come back early. Could have been in Gotham for a couple days.

Very well could have:

- Amended his will.
- Repaired the Batsignal
- Left the bag with the climbing equipment for Blake

etc.


I just gave you very detailed description, factual description of the passage of time in the film. The same issue that many people have complained about. I just turned it into a non-issue by explaining what is in the film for everyone to see (though some choose to not see it).

And you give me that it was laughable that he got back the day of? I mean, c'mon, Guard, are you looking for reasons to not like this film?

-R

 

[Robin91939]

you're assuming that there was no lost time between the failed climb on day 84 and the last successful climb

He makes his second climb.

Falls.

He passes out -- wakes up in bed and talks about the "fear of death" with the blind prisoner.

Then he packs up to make the climb and walks out and does it.

Now -- unless when he passed out he was out for multiple days, you can assume that the 2nd and final climb were within 24 hours of each other.

The difference between 84 and 85,86 days is pretty meaningless. The fact is that he had near 2 months to get from the Pit back into Gotham City. Give or take a day.

-R

 

[The Guard]

Who's to say he came back the same day?

He was changed and clean shaven. He could have come back early. Could have been in Gotham for a couple days.

Very well could have:

- Amended his will.
- Repaired the Batsignal
- Left the bag with the climbing equipment for Blake

etc.

I just gave you very detailed description, factual description of the passage of time in the film. The same issue that many people have complained about. I just turned it into a non-issue by explaining what is in the film for everyone to see (though some choose to not see it).

And you give me that it was laughable that he got back the day of? I mean, c'mon, Guard, are you looking for reasons to not like this film?

-R

I said I chuckled a little bit. Not that I laughed.

He could have gotten back earlier...but the point is, he showed up and revealed himself to Selina, ready to put his plans into effect with about a day to go.

 

[shauner111]

I chuckled a little bit at that. That he managed to get back with exactly one day to spare.

He was most likely back in Gotham days before. Every clue he left Fox, Blake, Gordon had to be taken care of first. Who knows what else. You have to think logically. The guy was probably exhausted beyond belief when he arrived at Wayne Manor, which is where i assume he went first. Who knows if he has proper transportation to get into the main part of the city after that, and how careful he had to be to avoid Banes men while doing so. It's probably a few days.

 

[Voyeur]

"So you came back to die with your city?"
"No, I came to stop you."

Worst line in the whole trilogy. It's like the writers just couldn't be arsed putting any thought into Batman's reply there.

I actually liked that line. Because it's just so earnest and sincere. Which is Batman in a nutshell. If it's Spidey or Iron Man, it would have been a witty one-liner...but that's just not Batman's style.

I'd say if there was one think I found "disappointing", and it's VERY minor indeed, it would be we didn't get to see the burlap mask from Crane. I couldn't figure out why we didn't see him put it on at least once...maybe when he was handing down a sentence.

Then I started to think...Nolan doesn't do anything without a reason. Surely, there was a reason he didn't want Crane to wear the Scarecrow mask.

I came up with a theory (just for fun, really). Crane primarily put on the Scarecrow mask to instill fear in others. By the time Bane takes over and Gotham is ruled by martial law, the citizens all live in fear. Therefore, he retired the mask because it was no longer necessary. His dream of a Gotham City in fear was fully realized.

Just as Batman would retire his mask when his job was done.

 

[Travesty]

Nolan shows the passage of time -- you just have to watch the film closely to see it. And aside from the number in the newscast, most of it flat out said.

-R

Who's to say he came back the same day?
-R

 

[BatLobster]

I actually liked that line. Because it's just so earnest and sincere. Which is Batman in a nutshell. If it's Spidey or Iron Man, it would have been a witty one-liner...but that's just not Batman's style.

I'd say if there was one think I found "disappointing", and it's VERY minor indeed, it would be we didn't get to see the burlap mask from Crane. I couldn't figure out why we didn't see him put it on at least once...maybe when he was handing down a sentence.

Then I started to think...Nolan doesn't do anything without a reason. Surely, there was a reason he didn't want Crane to wear the Scarecrow mask.

I came up with a theory (just for fun, really). Crane primarily put on the Scarecrow mask to instill fear in others. By the time Bane takes over and Gotham is ruled by martial law, the citizens all live in fear. Therefore, he retired the mask because it was no longer necessary. His dream of a Gotham City in fear was fully realized.

Just as Batman would retire his mask when his job was done.

Nice observations. Not only was his dream fulfilled, but he landed a dream job too as the guy who gets to slam his gavel and relish the fear of everyone he sentences.

 

[Voyeur]

Nice observations. Not only was his dream fulfilled, but he landed a dream job too as the guy who gets to slam his gavel and relish the fear of everyone he sentences.

Ah yes...that' is true as well.