The All Things Flash Thread. - Part 1

[Astro13Zombie]

Knightmare Flash

That looks awesome.

 

[AvegningSpider]

Is it me or does Flash's Knightmare armor look like Batman's DKR Armor from BvS but much slimmer?

 

[harryoscop]

Just because there has never been a comic book film like doesn't mean there can't be. If your gonna have just the Captain Cold in a Flash film than CMIUC is the template I'd want used. It would stick out and break the mold once again of what people think a CBM can be. Not the all life on earth is ending scenario, just a guy trying to stop a criminal from robbing banks.

That just sounds boring as hell, though. A Flash film can and should he so much more than that, man. Nobody wants to watch a 2 hours of The Flash stopping a guy from robbing banks. It's the same reason why nobody wanted the Vulture to be the villain of Spider-Man: Homecoming or why The Shocker will never be the main villain of a Spider-Man film. It's anti-climactic, it's boring and it doesn't test the protagonist of the story in any way at all. It doesn't work.

Why do you think they made Reverse Flash the main antagonist in the CW Flash and Captain Cold a side villain? Because by staying true to his classic interpretation, they know he could never be the main villain of the series. They need a villain that can test the hero in some form or capacity and Cap Cold doesn't adhere to any of these qualities needed in the main antagonist.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

That just sounds boring as hell, though. A Flash film can and should he so much more than that, man. Nobody wants to watch a 2 hours of The Flash stopping a guy from robbing banks. It's the same reason why nobody wanted the Vulture to be the villain of Spider-Man: Homecoming or why The Shocker will never be the main villain of a Spider-Man film. It's anti-climactic, it's boring and it doesn't test the protagonist of the story in any way at all. It doesn't work.

Why do you think they made Reverse Flash the main antagonist in the CW Flash and Captain Cold a side villain? Because by staying true to his classic interpretation, they know he could never be the main villain of the series. They need a villain that can test the hero in some form or capacity and Cap Cold doesn't adhere to any of these qualities needed in the main antagonist.

Being the main villain of a tv show requires a more intense and complex villain than being the main villain of a movie, a tv shows villain has to be interesting for numerous episodes and potentially hours of actual screentime, a movie villain usually only needs to be able to deliver about 20-40 minutes of screentime. Captain Cold, with the Rogues potentially added into the mix is more than capable of carrying a film as villain, he's one of the best Flash villains for a very good reason, if you don't think he's capable of testing the Flash than you seriously need to actually do your homework on the character. Captain Cold is a hundred times the villain Shocker or Vulture is.

 

[UltimateMarvel]

Is it me or does Flash's Knightmare armor look like Batman's DKR Armor from BvS but much slimmer?

Yes, it does.

 

[harryoscop]

Being the main villain of a tv show requires a more intense and complex villain than being the main villain of a movie, a tv shows villain has to be interesting for numerous episodes and potentially hours of actual screentime, a movie villain usually only needs to be able to deliver about 20-40 minutes of screentime. Captain Cold, with the Rogues potentially added into the mix is more than capable of carrying a film as villain, he's one of the best Flash villains for a very good reason, if you don't think he's capable of testing the Flash than you seriously need to actually do your homework on the character. Captain Cold is a hundred times the villain Shocker or Vulture is.

Mind elaborating on why he's one of the best? because from the issues i've seen him in, he's always doing the same thing: robbing banks and trying to 'best' The Flash. There's nothing that inherently puts him above Shocker or Vulture as they all share the same basic motivations. (which is why Vulture's probably been given a better motivation and upgraded, lethal appearance, and why Shocker is still a side villain) Sure when they went into his backstory it was compelling but that doesn't change his mediocre motivation that almost every classic villaim in fiction has. The only reason I think he's regarded as one of the best Flash villains is because of how frequently he appears in the comics & other media. I think the same can be said about Boomerang. Grodd and Eobard Thawn are 5x better than him. They can actually challenge the Flash physically as well push him to his physical limits & in Thawn's case, emotional limits. Which Captain Cold without the Rouges (even with 'em, he realistically couldn't) could never do.

This guy, however...

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Mind elaborating on why he's one of the best? because from the issues i've seen him in, he's always doing the same thing: robbing banks and trying to 'best' The Flash. There's nothing that inherently puts him above Shocker or Vulture as they all share the same basic motivations. (which is why Vulture's probably been given a better motivation and upgraded, lethal appearance, and why Shocker is still a side villain) Sure when they went into his backstory it was compelling but that doesn't change his mediocre motivation that almost every classic villaim in fiction has. The only reason I think he's regarded as one of the best Flash villains is because of how frequently he appears in the comics & other media. I think the same can be said about Boomerang. Grodd and Eobard Thawn are 5x better than him. They can actually push Flash to his physical limits which Captain Cold without the Rouges (even with 'em, he realistically couldn't) could never do.

Boomerang, Trickster, Heat Wave, etc. are minor villains, and in a team environment are lackeys, in a team environment Cold is a leader, capable of controlling the other villains to an extent, his ability to lead a team is part of what elevates him as a villain, yes, his motivation when it comes down to it is simple, but considering the motivations we've had lately, personal vendettas and "destroy/take over the world" have gotten tiring and predictable, think of Hans Gruber in Die Hard, one of the best film villains of all time, and his entire motivation was money, I do not see how such a simple motivation is in any way a problem for a movie villain, I'd find simply wanting money and the thrill of the heist to be a refreshing motivation tbh. And if they kept Cold's (admittedly flexible) no killing rule in, it would be a great contrast to literally every comic book movie villain we've ever had (at least that I can think of), I'd love to see them have a moment where Cold actually does something to prevent a civilian from getting hurt, maybe even at the cost of getting beaten by Flash.

 

[harryoscop]

Boomerang, Trickster, Heat Wave, etc. are minor villains, and in a team environment are lackeys, in a team environment Cold is a leader, capable of controlling the other villains to an extent, his ability to lead a team is part of what elevates him as a villain, yes, his motivation when it comes down to it is simple, but considering the motivations we've had lately, personal vendettas and "destroy/take over the world" have gotten tiring and predictable, think of Hans Gruber in Die Hard, one of the best film villains of all time, and his entire motivation was money, I do not see how such a simple motivation is in any way a problem for a movie villain, I'd find simply wanting money and the thrill of the heist to be a refreshing motivation tbh. And if they kept Cold's (admittedly flexible) no killing rule in, it would be a great contrast to literally every comic book movie villain we've ever had (at least that I can think of), I'd love to see them have a moment where Cold actually does something to prevent a civilian from getting hurt, maybe even at the cost of getting beaten by Flash.

If Cold is such a valiant leader, how come we often don't see that being reflected in his stories? Sure, he usually comes up with the plan but he uses the same point and shoot tactics that every other Rouge uses. He isn't anymore of a threat to Flash than they are. (An Ice gun) And I haven't seen Die Hard 1 in a very long time, but if I remember correctly, there was a lot more to that Gruber guy than just him robbing banks. He was ruthless as fricc and did anything to get money, there were stakes in that movie because of his ruthlessness, he had no problem at all killing people. There has to be real stakes with Snart if he's the main villain of a film. Cold spending 50 hours on coming up with a plan to steal 1 million dollars from a bank is not a very compelling villain plan, especially when doesn't want to kill anybody. Also Flash being blasted with non-lethal ice doesn't really lead to a climax does it? There's no real character journey there for Barry at all. You have to have a story that fits the movie and Cold with the Rouges just robbing banks over and over again does not build to a climax.

That's why i'm suggesting a version of New 52 Cold because thematically, he works way better for a movie.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

If Cold is such a valiant leader, how come we often don't see that being reflected in his stories? Sure, he usually comes up with the plan but he uses the same point and shoot tactics that every other Rouge uses. He isn't anymore of a threat to Flash than they are. (An Ice gun) And I haven't seen Die Hard 1 in a very long time, but if I remember correctly, there was a lot more to that Gruber guy than just him robbing banks. He was ruthless as fricc and did anything to get money, there were stakes in that movie because of his ruthlessness, he had no problem at all killing people. There has to be real stakes with Snart if he's the main villain of a film. Cold spending 50 hours on coming up with a plan to steal 1 million dollars from a bank is not a very compelling villain plan, especially when doesn't want to kill anybody. Also Flash being blasted with non-lethal ice doesn't really lead to a climax does it? There's no real character journey there for Barry at all. You have to have a story that fits the movie and Cold with the Rouges just robbing banks over and over again does not build to a climax.

That's why i'm suggesting a version of New 52 Cold because thematically, he works way better for a movie.

You really seem obsessed with the idea that they ONLY thing they could possibly target is a friggin bank, as for their behavior in a fight, I don't think you get any difference in plotholes whether Cold is or is not a metahuman, yeah, he can't take his gun away in the blink of an eye if he's a meta, but what's stopping him from punching him in the face at superspeed and stopping him like that just as easily, meta or not you have to suspend the same amount of disbelief. As for stakes, it'd be nice to explore stakes other than just lives being at risk, not every good movie has involved lives being at stake, there are things that they can use to add drama to the situation other than that. Or if you have the full Rogues, you still get lives at stake with Snart trying to keep them in line, Cold may not be eager to endanger civilians, but a lot of the other Rogues couldn't care less, They could have Snart show his ruthlessness in response to a Rogue killing a civilian, have Cold personally off one of the more expendable Rogues.

I could see them drawing influence from a film like Heat for a Flash film, half focusing on Barry and the CCPD going after the Rogues and half focusing on The Rogues planning and executing their heists, a Heat inspired scene between Flash and Cold where they sit down and talk prior to the films climax would be great. So many brilliant Heist films have been made that could serve as inspiration for the Rogues portrayal on film.

 

[harryoscop]

You really seem obsessed with the idea that they ONLY thing they could possibly target is a friggin bank, as for their behavior in a fight, I don't think you get any difference in plotholes whether Cold is or is not a metahuman, yeah, he can't take his gun away in the blink of an eye if he's a meta, but what's stopping him from punching him in the face at superspeed and stopping him like that just as easily, meta or not you have to suspend the same amount of disbelief. As for stakes, it'd be nice to explore stakes other than just lives being at risk, not every good movie has involved lives being at stake, there are things that they can use to add drama to the situation other than that. Or if you have the full Rogues, you still get lives at stake with Snart trying to keep them in line, Cold may not be eager to endanger civilians, but a lot of the other Rogues couldn't care less, They could have Snart show his ruthlessness in response to a Rogue killing a civilian, have Cold personally off one of the more expendable Rogues.

I could see them drawing influence from a film like Heat for a Flash film, half focusing on Barry and the CCPD going after the Rogues and half focusing on The Rogues planning and executing their heists, a Heat inspired scene between Flash and Cold where they sit down and talk prior to the films climax would be great. So many brilliant Heist films have been made that could serve as inspiration for the Rogues portrayal on film.

Tell me, how would the movie build to a climax? Because the only way I could see a Climax that's not Anti-climactic happening if they followed the 'heist' mold is if it's something like 'The Town' where the Rouges are cornered by Flash and Central City Swat team and the cops kill a few of 'em one by one while Flash tries to stop them from getting killed-- leaving only Cold, Boomerang and Trickster. Turning Snart & the Rouges into a cautionary tale type thing. Another thing is it's easier for me to suspend my disbelief when i'm reading a comic book or watching an animated show but for a movie, it's going to have a lot of people scratching their head as to why Flash would be having a hard time with somebody like Boomerang or Heatwave. And since he's not being challenged by the villain, what would Barry's character arc be? Him searching for Nora's killer? Because unless Reverse-Flash/Zoom is in this film (which I kinda hope he's not, so they can save him for Flash 2 or 3) They can't go down that route.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

Tell me, how would the movie build to a climax? Because the only way I could see a Climax that's not Anti-climactic happening if they followed the 'heist' mold is if it's something like 'The Town' where the Rouges are cornered by Flash and Central City Swat team and the cops kill a few of 'em one by one while Flash tries to stop them from getting killed-- leaving only Cold, Boomerang and Trickster. Turning Snart & the Rouges into a cautionary tale type thing. Another thing is it's easier for me to suspend my disbelief when i'm reading a comic book or watching an animated show but for a movie, it's going to have a lot of people scratching their head as to why Flash would be having a hard time with somebody like Boomerang or Heatwave. And since he's not being challenged by the villain, what would Barry's character arc be? Him searching for Nora's killer? Because unless Reverse-Flash/Zoom is in this film (which I kinda hope he's not, so they can save him for Flash 2 or 3) They can't go down that route.

You just answered your own question in regards to the climax, the heist going wrong IS the climax, and in regards to some of them maybe even getting killed, I'd be fine with it, Flash has an army's worth of decent but expendable Rogues, and the movies can't give a film to all of them. As for Barry not being challenged, if you can't suspend your disbelief than maybe the character isn't for you, but it's on the writers to make it believable, maybe some of the Rogues get desperate and endanger civilians, slowing Flash down as he protects them, and individually the Rogues may not be huge threats, but if they were to effectively write them working together it'd be easy to buy them giving Flash a run for his money. In regards to character arcs, Barry Allen went years in the comics before they came up with the story of his mother's murder, and there are countless character arcs for him even since the murder backstory was created that have NOTHING to do with it, there's no shortage of arcs they could go for, especially with him still being new to being a superhero. And yeah, why not include his mother's murder as part of his arc, if they allude to Reverse Flash it'll only make him more effective when he finally does appear.

 

[UltimateMarvel]

edit

 

[AvegningSpider]

 

[harryoscop]

You just answered your own question in regards to the climax, the heist going wrong IS the climax, and in regards to some of them maybe even getting killed, I'd be fine with it, Flash has an army's worth of decent but expendable Rogues, and the movies can't give a film to all of them. As for Barry not being challenged, if you can't suspend your disbelief than maybe the character isn't for you, but it's on the writers to make it believable, maybe some of the Rogues get desperate and endanger civilians, slowing Flash down as he protects them, and individually the Rogues may not be huge threats, but if they were to effectively write them working together it'd be easy to buy them giving Flash a run for his money. In regards to character arcs, Barry Allen went years in the comics before they came up with the story of his mother's murder, and there are countless character arcs for him even since the murder backstory was created that have NOTHING to do with it, there's no shortage of arcs they could go for, especially with him still being new to being a superhero. And yeah, why not include his mother's murder as part of his arc, if they allude to Reverse Flash it'll only make him more effective when he finally does appear.

But this also opens up another can of worms: In a hypothetical climax akin to The Town, we're assuming that the audience cares about the Rouges failing. The reason why you cared about Doug in the final confrontation of 'The Town' was because you knew he wasn't a bad guy, and he wasn't a ruthless criminal like his peers and it showed when he found Claire. He wanted out of his criminal life and for that, he gained sympathy. This doesn't apply Snart because he loves & enjoys what he does. There are no stakes in the heist going wrong if the audience hates the Rouges and want them to fail, especially if they're getting desperate and holding hostages. The only way it could work is if they make Snart sympathetic.

Another problem like I said before: what are the stakes for Barry? Even if the Rouges did 'best' him, they DON'T want him dead. What are the consequences of him losing to the Rouges? Them getting away with the money, that's it. Hels going to be running around in circles with them through the whole movie until they 'fail'. And the reason why I mention Nora Allen was because Johns mentioned it as part of this Flash's backstory in the CW special. But even then, i'm having a hard time trying to think of a great character arc for Flash when the villains are not contributing to it.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

But this also opens up another can of worms: In a hypothetical climax akin to The Town, we're assuming that the audience cares about the Rouges failing. The reason why you cared about Doug in the final confrontation of 'The Town' was because you knew he wasn't a bad guy, and he wasn't a ruthless criminal like his peers and it showed when he found Claire. He wanted out of his criminal life and for that, he gained sympathy. This doesn't apply Snart because he loves & enjoys what he does. There are no stakes in the heist going wrong if the audience hates the Rouges and want them to fail, especially if they're getting desperate and holding hostages. The only way it could work is if they make Snart sympathetic.

Another problem like I said before: what are the stakes for Barry? Even if the Rouges did 'best' him, they DON'T want him dead. What are the consequences of him losing to the Rouges? Them getting away with the money, that's it. Hels going to be running around in circles with them through the whole movie until they 'fail'. And the reason why I mention Nora Allen was because Johns mentioned it as part of this Flash's backstory in the CW special. But even then, i'm having a hard time trying to think of a great character arc for Flash when the villains are not contributing to it.

It's not necessarily true of all the Rogues to say they don't want Flash dead, some of them wouldn't hesitate given the opportunity, and not all of them would be against endangering civilian lives to get away or slow down Flash, which would create stakes and drama for both Flash and Cold. Even if none of them wanted to kill Flash, it's not like great cat and mouse heist/crime films haven't been made where the criminals don't want to kill anyone, it doesn't have to be all about hurting people and trying to kill the hero. And I really don't see how the villains would be unable to contribute to Barry's arc in the film, he works for the friggin police and fights them as the Flash, a team of coordinated criminals giving a green superhero a run for his money is good grounds for an arc of Barry learning how to juggle all the different aspects of his life.

As for the audience and how they feel about the Rogues, it is possible to write criminals who enjoy what they do as likable or fun to watch, if you've never seen a film do it than you need to see some more movies because they do it all the damn time, The Town is not the end all be all of how to handle criminals on film. Heat, the Ocean's films, The Italian Job, etc. or heck look at films like Dirty Dozen, The Good The Bad and The Ugly, etc. the lead characters aren't exactly good people, some of them are downright terrible, but some of them are likable, and some you love to hate, pick a few Rogues, make them likable, and you give the audience character's they aren't sure they want to see fail, pick some Rogues for the genuinely terrible people category to add some stakes and tension when things start to go wrong.

 

[UltimateMarvel]

Close-up

 

[Web-Head]

https://***********/RickFamuyiwa/status/780507720747065345

 

[UltimateMarvel]

https://***********/RickFamuyiwa/status/780507720747065345

Cyborg confirmed

 

[UltimateMarvel]

That's adorable! The first DCEU Flash cosplay I see.

 

[UltimateMarvel]

 

[Web-Head]

I'm ready for more news about this. We should hear something soon if the rumor about them beginning to film in January is true.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Yeah I believe that we are going to start seeing more casting in November and December.

 

[Sawyer]

Looking forward to that start-of-production press release/image like they did with WW.

 

[Tg11]

Flash his solo film well my picks for the Rogues go as follows:

Captain Cold- Sam Worthington
Golden Glider- Natalie Dormer
Heatwave- Ben Foster
Mirror Master- Casey Affleck
Weather Wizard- Ben Barnes

 

[Web-Head]

Some sort of news...
https://***********/GeekPride5/status/791845225501044736