Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

[Aztec]

To me, it's reaching, but we won't know for sure until TWS comes out. And personally, I can buy Widow making that leap way more than I can Hawkeye surviving getting his head slammed into a metal beam (also written by the thoughtful Whedon). I think this is a case where we should probably accept what we've seen at face value rather than create something that isn't there.

Agreed about TWS being the final word.

Why would banging your head not be survivable? Have you never done it? Lol. Concussion? Possibly, but completely survivable.

You see that's where we differ my friend; I think it "was there". That's why I'm bringing it up.

 

[DrCosmic]

It is reaching. The film makes a clear distinction when after a round of fighting Cap is fine and Window is exhausted, panting. He's superhuman, she's not, she's just really good, which is part of what makes her awesome. "This is nothing we've ever trained for."

Reaching to make "pulled apart and disassembled" into a physical line is reaching. Did they take off her arms? When you try to take these lines written for what everyone making and connected with the film agrees with is a non-powered character - when you try to take that and make it more than was intended, you end up with more questions than answers, and they're not particularly interesting questions.

And lets get to the heart of it: The reason BW has the SSS in the comics is to connect her to the Cold War, to avoid a retcon since she was involved in so many stories surrounding that era, as well as leave room to connect her to the most interesting part of Russia's Intelligence Community history, and cement her ungodly skills. This, long story short, just isn't necessary in the films, on any level. The films establish she's been training since she was little and killed a lot of people. That not only makes her an incredibly interesting character, but puts her on the tail end of the Cold War, as well as the fallout between Russian states afterwards.

So what does giving her super powers actually do for the character? How does it make her better? How does it prevent her from seeming like a knockoff Captain America, so much the worse since she's already shown she can contribute and keep up even though she can't do the things he does, and gets tired just from fighting aliens.

 

[Crimson King]

Agreed about TWS being the final word.

Why would banging your head not be survivable? Have you never done it? Lol. Concussion? Possibly, but completely survivable.

You see that's where we differ my friend; I think it "was there". That's why I'm bringing it up.

Did you see how hard he hit that thing? Dude would be in some serious trouble in real life. Also, if you believe what you're saying regarding BW, it should be even worse since he was slammed by a super soldier.

 

[Steve Holt]

i'd prefer she just being a really talented human, i would however like to see her in one of the cryo tubes, so she could be active in the 70/80s and have been trained by the winter soldier before he got frozen for the last time.

it would add an interesting layer if she knew about Bucky but didn't tell Steve

 

[Rock Sexton]

Agreed about TWS being the final word.

Why would banging your head not be survivable? Have you never done it? Lol. Concussion? Possibly, but completely survivable.

You see that's where we differ my friend; I think it "was there". That's why I'm bringing it up.

Final word? Uhhh the final word is when Kevin Feige openly told everyone that BW is a regular person without superpowers of any kind.

It is reaching. The film makes a clear distinction when after a round of fighting Cap is fine and Window is exhausted, panting. He's superhuman, she's not, she's just really good, which is part of what makes her awesome. "This is nothing we've ever trained for."

Reaching to make "pulled apart and disassembled" into a physical line is reaching. Did they take off her arms? When you try to take these lines written for what everyone making and connected with the film agrees with is a non-powered character - when you try to take that and make it more than was intended, you end up with more questions than answers, and they're not particularly interesting questions.

And lets get to the heart of it: The reason BW has the SSS in the comics is to connect her to the Cold War, to avoid a retcon since she was involved in so many stories surrounding that era, as well as leave room to connect her to the most interesting part of Russia's Intelligence Community history, and cement her ungodly skills. This, long story short, just isn't necessary in the films, on any level. The films establish she's been training since she was little and killed a lot of people. That not only makes her an incredibly interesting character, but puts her on the tail end of the Cold War, as well as the fallout between Russian states afterwards.

So what does giving her super powers actually do for the character? How does it make her better? How does it prevent her from seeming like a knockoff Captain America, so much the worse since she's already shown she can contribute and keep up even though she can't do the things he does, and gets tired just from fighting aliens.

Great post!

When BW refers to knowing what it's like to be unmade, she's talking about being turned into someone capable of the atrocities she clearly has committed in her past. It's blatantly a metaphor, not some foreshadowing to appease fanboys who still think the MCU is a direct translation of the comics.

 

[Mightyally]

DrCosmic´s post is pretty compelling! (Not as compelling as Peter Griffin but almost).

 

[Loki882]

I simply don't see how it MAKES her a knockoff CA, that's a ridiculous argument to me, they're very different characters. Blonsky and RS have version of the SSS already, so it wouldn't be a stretch.

 

[Loki882]

Also, Steve looked pretty tired fighting the Chitauri to me.

 

[Loki882]

And the SSS isn't a superpower, so that is irrelevant.

 

[jaqua99]

My problem with that is inconsistency. BW is established as a non super powered hero. Changing it, and justifying that change with a few tiny "hints" in previous movies won't just let me write it off as okay. She's shown to be a HIGHLY skilled, yet normal powered person.

 

[marcvader]

Hope it stays that way.

 

[Rock Sexton]

I simply don't see how it MAKES her a knockoff CA, that's a ridiculous argument to me, they're very different characters. Blonsky and RS have version of the SSS already, so it wouldn't be a stretch.

Also, Steve looked pretty tired fighting the Chitauri to me.

And the SSS isn't a superpower, so that is irrelevant.

Man you are stubborn.

Have you seen BW take a laser to the midsection and walk away from it?

While not "superpowered" per say the SS serum is turns humans pretty close to one. Yes, Blonksy had some in him and the way the story utilized it was valid. BW does not need the SS or any variant whatsoever. Why introduce a third character into the fold who has it in their system? This is what I mean by gratuitous diluting. Who's next? Fury? Where does it stop?

Yes, they each have a backstory, but it's their unique abilities that begin to separate them from each other, hence why Whedon chose to bring in Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch. He openly stated how he had enough hard hitters. He wanted characters with a different set of abilities.

Having to explain every heroes abilities stemming from a serum or super power is lazy. That is why Feige has chosen to keep some of these SHIELD members non-powered up.

 

[Mightyally]

Man you are stubborn.

Have you seen BW take a laser to the midsection and walk away from it?

While not "superpowered" per say the SS serum is turns humans pretty close to one. Yes, Blonksy had some in him and the way the story utilized it was valid. BW does not need the SS or any variant whatsoever. Why introduce a third character into the fold who has it in their system? This is what I mean by gratuitous diluting. Who's next? Fury? Where does it stop?

Yes, they each have a backstory, but it's their unique abilities that begin to separate them from each other, hence why Whedon chose to bring in Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch. He openly stated how he had enough hard hitters. He wanted characters with a different set of abilities.

Having to explain every heroes abilities stemming from a serum or super power is lazy. That is why Feige has chosen to keep some of these SHIELD members non-powered up.

Agreed.

I am only bringing this up because english isn´t my native language. But for like the 10th time now I see ppl write per say. What´s the difference between per se and per say? Is it like defence, defense? It´s okay to say both or what´s up seriously.

 

[Crimson King]

Agreed.

I am only bringing this up because english isn´t my native language. But for like the 10th time now I see ppl write per say. What´s the difference between per se and per say? Is it like defence, defense? It´s okay to say both or what´s up seriously.

It's "per se," a Latin saying. People write it the other way just out of spelling it like it sounds, but there's only one way to spell it.

 

[Dark Raven]

It's "per se," a Latin saying. People write it the other way just out of spelling it like it sounds, but there's only one way to spell it.

I was going to say the same thing. There's no "per say". People just spell it wrongly (maybe they don't realise it's Latin) and think it's like per hour and then "say" like the present tense of "said".

 

[The Question]

And the SSS isn't a superpower, so that is irrelevant.

Yes it is. I've never understood why people say it isn't. The stuff he does is superhuman. Being that fit without exercising is by itself superhuman, but on top of that he's physically capable of things that normal people aren't. Nobody can bench press 1200 pounds and run a mile in 73 seconds and do all of that ridiculously agile free-running stuff, normal bodies don't work that way. Plus, his metabolism has been stated in the comics to be so much more efficient than a normal person's that his stamina is far and away superior to any non superhuman. And, in the movies, it's so efficient that he can't get drunk.

The guy's superhuman, it's just in a more subtle way than somebody like Spider-Man.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Yes it is. I've never understood why people say it isn't. The stuff he does is superhuman. Being that fit without exercising is by itself superhuman, but on top of that he's physically capable of things that nobody else is.

yes/no, i definitely would say he has a super power for the fact he's "above average human level" but the SSS is designed to make a human have peak human strength, speed, agility, durability etc... Means Cap can be as strong and durable as a human can be (like a olympic weight lifter), as agile as an olympic gymnist, and as fast as a olympic runner..... etc...

there can be a human without the SSS just as strong, or as fast, or as agile... but he's the only one who has it all in one package.

So it really is a mixed bag. The means in which he got his abilities and the fact he's a package deal is what makes him super. His abilities alone however do not.

 

[The Question]

yes/no, i definitely would say he has a super power for the fact he's "above average human level" but the SSS is designed to make a human have peak human strength, speed, agility, durability etc... Means Cap can be as strong and durable as a human can be (like a olympic weight lifter), as agile as an olympic gymnist, and as fast as a olympic runner..... etc...

there can be a human without the SSS just as strong, or as fast, or as agile... but he's the only one who has it all in one package.

So it really is a mixed bag. The means in which he got his abilities and the fact he's a package deal is what makes him super. His abilities alone however do not.

Okay. So he's superhuman. I don't see why it's a yes/no thing. His body is better than a normal person's and impossible to achieve through training. Qualifying it as "he is, but..." feels like splitting hairs to me.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Okay. So he's superhuman. I don't see why it's a yes/no thing. His body is better than a normal person's and impossible to achieve through training. Qualifying it as "he is, but..." feels like splitting hairs to me.

I think it's because people seem to naturally want to think "Super Human" = "Super Powers" and that's really not the case at all... "Super Human" has nothing to do with powers at all... just means you're above average human and very rare.

Powers or "Super Powers" are just something un-natural granted to an individual

Super Powered individuals will always be "Super Human" but not all "Super Humans have powers.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Also, Steve looked pretty tired fighting the Chitauri to me.

Yeah Whedon was deliberate in showing human, vulnerable Steve next to non-human Thor. He was panting and grabbing his side and looking at Thor with fatigued incredulity.

 

[The Question]

I think it's because people seem to naturally want to think "Super Human" = "Super Powers" and that's really not the case at all... "Super Human" has nothing to do with powers at all... just means you're above average human and very rare.

Powers or "Super Powers" are just something un-natural granted to an individual

Super Powered individuals will always be "Super Human" but not all "Super Humans have powers.

That seems like a distinction without a difference. Steve does have super powers. His super power is that his body functions more efficiently and just plan better than any normal human, making him physically superior to everyone who doesn't have physically-based powers. That's a super power.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Plus, aren't the effects of the SSS on Steve more drastic in the movie universe than 616, closer to his Ultimate self? Ultimate Steve is definitely super human.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That seems like a distinction without a difference. Steve does have super powers. His super power is that his body functions more efficiently and just plan better than any normal human, making him physically superior to everyone who doesn't have physically-based powers. That's a super power.

he doesn't have a power though, not when it's possible for another human being to train and aquire at least one of those abilities.

Powers are something you CAN NOT train to acquire. like Luke Cage's impenetrable skin, Banner's Hulk Persona, phasing, telekenisis, energy blasts, un-natural superhuman strength (like being able to lift a car over your head), being faster than a blink of an eye.... etc..

Steve's abilities arn't powers. they're just peak human. He's indeed Physically Superior... but that just makes him "Super Human" not "Super Powered"

i don't think being peak "human" grant's one to have a power... it's like Hawkeye and Widow's skills are above average human, and have very good skillsets and trained abilities that most people do not get. but they do not have "Super Powers"

one is a super spy, and the other has super (above) human coordination and sight. both were granted there skills naturally and with training.

Yes, cap's was not natural, nor did he have to train, but the effect is something still very natural. (at least when dissected)

it's sorta like.. say someone who was crippled and was given a formula that made them walk again, not only walk.. but be able to run, and were able to compete in the Olympics. would this be a super-powered individual? No...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Plus, aren't the effects of the SSS on Steve more drastic in the movie universe than 616, closer to his Ultimate self? Ultimate Steve is definitely super human.

id say yes.... but then again in the books average human beings with absolutely no powers.. have survived things no human really could ...

hell... Widow should have been broken in half by Hulk's punch

 

[Crimson King]

he doesn't have a power though, not when it's possible for another human being to train and aquire at least one of those abilities.

Powers are something you CAN NOT train to acquire. like Luke Cage's impenetrable skin, Banner's Hulk Persona, phasing, telekenisis, energy blasts, un-natural superhuman strength (like being able to lift a car over your head), being faster than a blink of an eye.... etc..

Steve's abilities arn't powers. they're just peak human. He's indeed Physically Superior... but that just makes him "Super Human" not "Super Powered"

i don't think being peak "human" grant's one to have a power... it's like Hawkeye and Widow's skills are above average human, and have very good skillsets and trained abilities that most people do not get. but they do not have "Super Powers"

one is a super spy, and the other has super (above) human coordination and sight. both were granted there skills naturally and with training.

Yes, cap's was not natural, nor did he have to train, but the effect is something still very natural. (at least when dissected)

it's sorta like.. say someone who was crippled and was given a formula that made them walk again, not only walk.. but be able to run, and were able to compete in the Olympics. would this be a super-powered individual? No...

I disagree. Maybe early 616 Steve, yeah, but the MCU Steve is different. He can do stuff a normal person couldn't train to do. He's closer to the Ultimates Cap than 616 in terms of power levels.