Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 3

[Anita18]

Here is my problem with this. Cap wanted to run away with Bucky. Not take him into custody. He was trying to help Bucky escape. Black Panther and WM are the reason Bucky ended up being detained.

We don't know if he wants to drop off the face of the earth with Bucky, a la Bruce Wayne in TDKR. Steve tells him, "It doesn't have to end in a fight" and he spends the entire time chasing after Bucky, who's actively trying to escape. (Like trying to entice a stray dog to come home with you. )

He tells Natasha that he should be the one to bring Bucky in, because he's least likely to die trying. So at least he's telling her he plans on taking Bucky into custody, alive. Whether that's a lie, we don't know. (Although in TWS he tells her "he's always honest" and they're good friends, so. )

For all we know, he was keeping Bucky in the vise, hidden away until he could be sure Bucky was safe for normal people to be around. For all we know, he was planning on bringing Bucky in again, until Bucky tells them about Zemo's plans, and then that all went out the window cause there were bigger things to worry about.

 

[yllum]

personally I dont think Steve wanna just run away with bucky. that is definitely not his intention.

I think he wants to help him with his condition , I think he wants bucky to seek medical help.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Steve did not want to "run away with Bucky". He was trying to keep him from getting killed and to stop him from killing anyone else. He was trying to save lives.

 

[Anita18]

Right, it just occurred to me that if he wanted to drop off the face of the earth with Bucky, he would have done so when Bucky was unconscious. Be out of the country before the CIA closed off the borders while trying to recover from the mess.

Instead, he keeps Bucky close to CIA HQ, and safely contained until he is sure Bucky is no longer affected by the brainwashing.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Steve was dumb in some of his arguments, though, particularly when he said that oversight means that they shift the responsibility to someone else, which is a load of horse crap. No oversight whatsoever is when you take no responsibility, because you have no one to answer to for your actions. The idea that you bear no responsibility for your actions because you're answerable to someone else is the most laughably stupid thing I've heard in a long time.

 

[MarvelMayhem]

Felt bad when I reflect knowing that Tony was going to swing a deal and get Bucky good therapy in the states until Zemo ruined it. Darn you Zemo!! After watching the film and seeing how poorly used and abused Bucky was its hard for me to see Bucky as anything but a victim. Kind of wonder if we will ever see thru flashbacks and what not if there were times that Bucky was slightly more lucid and had more personality in between missions for hydra. In his hydra scenes he reminded me of furniture. Just completely not seen as an actual person.

 

[Anita18]

Steve was dumb in some of his arguments, though, particularly when he said that oversight means that they shift the responsibility to someone else, which is a load of horse crap. No oversight whatsoever is when you take no responsibility, because you have no one to answer to for your actions. The idea that you bear no responsibility for your actions because you're answerable to someone else is the most laughably stupid thing I've heard in a long time.

But the Accords wasn't just oversight, it was an assignation process too, which would shift the responsibility of decision-making.

When you're assigned to do something by someone else, that shifts the responsibility of that decision. You didn't have a choice, your assigning committee decided what to do with you.

Just ask Bucky.

 

[InCali]

Yeah. I'm not buying the "Steve is being selfish" line. He's trying to save his friend and I think he would have done the same if it had been another friend also (though for sure he's closer to Bucky). Loyalty is in his makeup and sometimes it presents you with conflicting, difficult choices. Not telling Tony about his parents was one of those choices. I, for one, would have considered the consequences of telling Tony. That's where things get murky for me, but, ultimately, I think Cap was correct about the accords. Tony caused a lot of problems and it was up to the others to clean up his (and to a lesser degree Banner's frell up). If the Avengers had to wait for approval, I think a lot more people would die.

 

[Schlosser85]

It was a bad call keeping it from Tony. When Bucky was in custody in Berlin, Tony was helping make arrangements for Bucky to be sent to a US psych hospital for rehab instead of a Wakanda prison, so I think when objectively he knows Bucky was brainwashed. He was just in a blind rage at the end where he didn't care. If Steve told him when he found out two years ago, Tony would have had all that time to process it.

 

[Schlosser85]

Here is my problem with this. Cap wanted to run away with Bucky. Not take him into custody. He was trying to help Bucky escape. Black Panther and WM are the reason Bucky ended up being detained.

Um, no he didnt. His original objective was to bring Bucky in alive, as he said to Natasha. It's only after he finds out about Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers that the objective changes. And even then he and Bucky aren't randomly running away, they're evading the police and Tony to stop Zemo.

 

[Rote]

Um, no he didnt. His original objective was to bring Bucky in alive, as he said to Natasha. It's only after he finds out about Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers that the objective changes. And even then he and Bucky aren't randomly running away, they're evading the police and Tony to stop Zemo.

Disagree. In TWS he was ready to die and let Bucky be free, rather than kill or bring him in, so I doubt that his attitude suddenly drastically changed. He said: "If he's this far gone, then... I should be the one to bring him in." We don't know, what he would do after he found out that Bucky was innocent. And he wanted to go himself BEFORE he knew about shoot on sight order. And he said to Sam: "He'd do it for me". Even if he found acceptable excuses, deep down he knew that it's selfish. Evans straight out said that Steve is selfish and he chooses Bucky over everyone else.

 

[Random490]

Steve was dumb in some of his arguments, though, particularly when he said that oversight means that they shift the responsibility to someone else, which is a load of horse crap. No oversight whatsoever is when you take no responsibility, because you have no one to answer to for your actions. The idea that you bear no responsibility for your actions because you're answerable to someone else is the most laughably stupid thing I've heard in a long time.

Not really, he's fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions. Allows himself to be detained. In the words of Black Widow "If you want to arrest us, then arrest us". He's more than willing to face the consequences, just the world would feel better if they could shift blame to a rotating counsel than charge Captain America.

In fact Cap proves himself to be one of the few adults in the room. Looking beyond the politics, spin, and even emotions of a situation and focus on the right and wrong. The system set out to execute Bucky, not concern with why or who else may be involved, laughs at the idea of a lawyer, hell they weren't even concerned with who let Bucky escape in the first place. Just out for quickest solution to the internal political problem. Cap goes above the bull ****, the red tape, and does the right thing. Stop the bad guy and help his friend who has been tortured and brainwashed to kill for his enemy.

Though the real argument is, the Punisher does the same thing. Just with more "bullets to the face".


And remember there is a point where Cap is ready to sign on the conditions of amending the accords, but the Tony reveals their already going the path he doesn't care for. So Cap isn't totally against the idea of over sight, just as it is currently written under the accords.

Also anyone thing it was a ****ting move to only tell Cap about the accords six days before it's ratified? Didn't anyone want his opinions while writing it?

 

[yllum]

All steve wants is for bucky to stay alive..all bucky wants is to stay alive.

Their theme song should be that stayin alive song by bee gees

 

[Captain Marvel]

But the Accords wasn't just oversight, it was an assignation process too, which would shift the responsibility of decision-making.

When you're assigned to do something by someone else, that shifts the responsibility of that decision. You didn't have a choice, your assigning committee decided what to do with you.

Just ask Bucky.

Bucky was brainwashed. There's a big difference between being brainwashed to do something and being ordered to do something. Even when you're ordered to do something, you always bear the responsibility for what you do, even if you did it under orders.

Just ask the Nazi's.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Not really, he's fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions. Allows himself to be detained. In the words of Black Widow "If you want to arrest us, then arrest us".

Not really, because the situation where he would be arrested for doing what he's doing would have only come about due to the implementation of the Sokovian Accords, which he opposes. So he's opposed to the idea of being arrested to begin with. And given that he goes ahead and does what he wants anyway, and actively avoids capture, and in the end of the movie frees the imprisoned Avengers, he's clearly NOT fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions, as he routinely avoids the punishment for his actions.

 

[Wylie Times]

Not really, because the situation where he would be arrested for doing what he's doing would have only come about due to the implementation of the Sokovian Accords, which he opposes. So he's opposed to the idea of being arrested to begin with. And given that he goes ahead and does what he wants anyway, and actively avoids capture, and in the end of the movie frees the imprisoned Avengers, he's clearly NOT fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions, as he routinely avoids the punishment for his actions.

Yup, any time someone tries to hold any of the Avengers accountable for their actions Steve fights against it. Steve got upset about Wanda being put on house arrest.

 

[Anita18]

Bucky was brainwashed. There's a big difference between being brainwashed to do something and being ordered to do something. Even when you're ordered to do something, you always bear the responsibility for what you do, even if you did it under orders.

Just ask the Nazi's.

IIRC (not an expert on this), but most of the Nazi party members who actually went through trial for their crimes were people in positions of power. The decision-makers, not the lackeys.

But it very well may have been because of logistical reasons, because they probably didn't have the resources to put every Nazi on trial. As I said, not an expert. But we do hold the decision-makers as the ones more responsible for bad decisions.

Not really, because the situation where he would be arrested for doing what he's doing would have only come about due to the implementation of the Sokovian Accords, which he opposes. So he's opposed to the idea of being arrested to begin with. And given that he goes ahead and does what he wants anyway, and actively avoids capture, and in the end of the movie frees the imprisoned Avengers, he's clearly NOT fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions, as he routinely avoids the punishment for his actions.

I don't think he's opposed to being arrested, really. He's opposed to not being allowed to do the right thing. If he's sitting in jail, he's not out there doing the right thing. He didn't want to be arrested before stopping Zemo's plot, that's what the airport fight was about.

Yup, any time someone tries to hold any of the Avengers accountable for their actions Steve fights against it. Steve got upset about Wanda being put on house arrest.

Treating someone like an object, "a weapon of mass destruction," is not making them accountable. It's treating them as sub-human. And you can't arrest someone according to a law passed AFTER they did the thing.

 

[Wylie Times]

Treating someone like an object, "a weapon of mass destruction," is not making them accountable. It's treating them as sub-human. And you can't arrest someone according to a law passed AFTER they did the thing.

She was put on house arrest.

And they were breaking the law BEFORE the Accords were passed. Most nations were looking the other way because they were ultimately doing good. The incident in Lagos was simply the last straw. They were going into countries without permission, causing tons of damage and just leaving. In the case of Wanda she was responsible for the Hulk's rampage, played a role in Ultron's creation, had ties to Hydra, and was an undocumented immigrant living in the U.S.

Post "The Winter Soldier" the Avengers were just going and doing whatever they wanted and not even sticking around to answer questions afterwards.

Saying Wanda was treated like "an object" or "sub-human" is a reach. She wasn't under house arrest simply for existing, she was under house arrest because of all the things she did.

 

[Anita18]

She was put on house arrest.

And they were breaking the law BEFORE the Accords were passed. Most nations were looking the other way because they were ultimately doing good. The incident in Lagos was simply the last straw. They were going into countries without permission, causing tons of damage and just leaving. In the case of Wanda she was responsible for the Hulk's rampage, played a role in Ultron's creation, had ties to Hydra, and was an undocumented immigrant living in the U.S.

Post "The Winter Soldier" the Avengers were just going and doing whatever they wanted and not even sticking around to answer questions afterwards.

Saying Wanda was treated like "an object" or "sub-human" is a reach. She wasn't under house arrest simply for existing, she was under house arrest because of all the things she did.

Well if superheroes all obeyed the law exactly, we wouldn't have these movies.

I always did think the only law that could handle superheroic actions in a logical way would be a revised Good Samaritan law. That's what Wanda was basically being. Nobody arrests a Good Samaritan for trying to do the right thing.

 

[Wylie Times]

Well if superheroes all obeyed the law exactly, we wouldn't have these movies.

I always did think the only law that could handle superheroic actions in a logical way would be a revised Good Samaritan law. That's what Wanda was basically being. Nobody arrests a Good Samaritan for trying to do the right thing.

Good Samaritan laws wouldn't apply Wanda or the situation in Lagos.

They flew from one country into another (without permission) to set up a sting operation without notifying local authorities.

 

[shadowboxxx]

Um, no he didnt. His original objective was to bring Bucky in alive, as he said to Natasha. It's only after he finds out about Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers that the objective changes. And even then he and Bucky aren't randomly running away, they're evading the police and Tony to stop Zemo.

If Cap was willing to compromise in any way, he would have called Tony, hand WS back to him personally and asked him for help against Zemo. Its clear Cap only wanted to do things his way.

 

[Wylie Times]

If Cap was willing to compromise in any way, he would have called Tony, hand WS back to him personally and asked him for help against Zemo. Its clear Cap only wanted to do things his way.

To be fair, that's the first thing Cap considers doing, Falcon talks him out of it though.

 

[Random490]

Not really, because the situation where he would be arrested for doing what he's doing would have only come about due to the implementation of the Sokovian Accords, which he opposes. So he's opposed to the idea of being arrested to begin with. And given that he goes ahead and does what he wants anyway, and actively avoids capture, and in the end of the movie frees the imprisoned Avengers, he's clearly NOT fully prepared to take responsibility for his actions, as he routinely avoids the punishment for his actions.

He was fully prepared to be, and in fact was, arrested when he first caught up with Bucky. His goal there was make sure everyone made through alive and was willing to face the consequences. When Wanda blew up the building Cap didn't say "Oh **** Wanda, cheese it before the fuzz gets here"

The only time he actively stood against the law was when the system was being manipulated and too many people were more concerned with covering their own ass then standing up to the actual threat. It becomes abundantly clear to Cap that Bucky was framed for a reason and that no one in authority was interested in the truth. Even in the Airport he told Tony that there was a threat and they have no time but Tony, more interested in complying with the accords then stopping a major threat. He only changed his tune and agreed with Cap when over abundance of evidence was handed to him. Evidence by which meant nothing to Ross.

Cap never previously avoided responsibility. Not for NYC, DC, South Korea, Sokovia, or Lagos. Even at the end of Civil War he accepts that can no longer be Captain America or an Avenger. He accepts becoming a fugitive to protected his allies and to stand up against a law he thinks is wrong. He's now a criminal but that doesn't mean he's wrong or refuses to pay the piper.

 

[Just_Human]

It was a great idea to have that speech originally made by Peggy (the one Cap made in the comics), because her point is exactly what she did in the Agent Carter TV series

We have seen her ignore direct orders because she did what she believed was right

 

[MyDudeSpidey]

Christ, that suit is beautiful.