The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - - - - - - - - - Part 18

[Spiderine]

Not necessary. Nobody besides hardcore comic nerds knew who Thanos was. Audiences cared because he was hyped for years in the films. They could do that with anybody.

Plus, I'm pretty sure they have Mephisto already. He was in Ghost Rider.

I used to think this as well. But somebody informed me that wasn't actually Mephisto and his rights lie with FF.

 

[Spiderine]

The MCU could still be successful beyond Avengers 4 hell may even go to greater heights but there are a ton of characters tied up with those FF/Xmen rights and it would be beyond disappointing of this falls through the cracks to Universal/ComcastFOX. We all know how much more potential this historic run could be and we would be kidding ourselves not to look forward to a future MCU that included all these Marvel characters to jump start the next chapter into the upcoming decade.

 

[Iceman]

The Comcast guy seems really determined this time.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Plus, I'm pretty sure they have Mephisto already. He was in Ghost Rider.

That was Mephistopheles, who can't be copyrighted because it's a mythical character. Marvel's version, Mephisto, was on a list of forbidden characters that Ike Perlmutter didn't want any artists or writers using because he was part of the FF rights. If you check any of the credits, you'll see he's clearly listed as Mephistopheles.

Not necessary. Nobody besides hardcore comic nerds knew who Thanos was. Audiences cared because he was hyped for years in the films. They could do that with anybody.

I read many variations of this idea during production of Fant4stic, but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now for several reasons.

First, none of us can explain exactly why Dr. Doom became an iconic character who has endured for 55 years. Ask ten people and they'll give you ten different reasons, because he's a multi-faceted character that appeals to different people for different reasons. Even Stan Lee or Jack Kirby can't tell you exactly why he became as big as he did. They created thousands of villains, but, for whatever reasons, his combination of characteristics really clicked while the others didn't. The best writers in the world can't simply create a new character who will work in the same way.

Secondly, a character like Dr. Doom crosses lines between geeks and 'regular people'. He's such a well-known character that most people have seen him in some form. They've seen him on T-Shirts, posters, cartoons etc. They've even seen (poorly rendered) versions of him in Fantastic Four films. That kind of broad recognition is why characters like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman etc. will always be bigger than some of the minor characters.

And lastly, us geeks do make a difference. We are the ones who create buzz. We talk about these things long before the film comes out, and that spills over to the people around us (even those who don't know and don't care). Those people may not know much about a film, but they know they've heard people like us saying either positive or negative things. And then we're the ones who show up on opening night (for the films that excite us). Regular people see us standing in lines and wonder what all the fuss is about. We drive opening weekend box-office numbers and those numbers spread the publicity. We make the films number one and then that number one ranking is seen by others. And we go back. We continue to keep the box office up and the publicity rolling. We're the Typhoid Mary that helps spread the disease.

The factors above are why some of these properties are so lucrative. If they weren't factors, anybody could make a blockbuster film. Just create a new character and do what Marvel does and you've got a hit film.

 

[Spiderine]

That was Mephistopheles, who can't be copyrighted because it's a mythical character. Marvel's version, Mephisto, was on a list of forbidden characters that Ike Perlmutter didn't want any artists or writers using because he was part of the FF rights. If you check any of the credits, you'll see he's clearly listed as Mephistopheles.



I read many variations of this idea during production of Fant4stic, but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now for several reasons.

First, none of us can explain exactly why Dr. Doom became an iconic character who has endured for 55 years. Ask ten people and they'll give you ten different reasons, because he's a multi-faceted character that appeals to different people for different reasons. Even Stan Lee or Jack Kirby can't tell you exactly why he became as big as he did. They created thousands of villains, but, for whatever reasons, his combination of characteristics really clicked while the others didn't. The best writers in the world can't simply create a new character who will work in the same way.

Secondly, a character like Dr. Doom crosses lines between geeks and 'regular people'. He's such a well-known character that most people have seen him in some form. They've seen him on T-Shirts, posters, cartoons etc. They've even seen (poorly rendered) versions of him in Fantastic Four films. That kind of broad recognition is why characters like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman etc. will always be bigger than some of the minor characters.

And lastly, us geeks do make a difference. We are the ones who create buzz. We talk about these things long before the film comes out, and that spills over to the people around us (even those who don't know and don't care). Those people may not know much about a film, but they know they've heard people like us saying either positive or negative things. And then we're the ones who show up on opening night (for the films that excite us). Regular people see us standing in lines and wonder what all the fuss is about. We drive opening weekend box-office numbers and those numbers spread the publicity. We make the films number one and then that number one ranking is seen by others. And we go back. We continue to keep the box office up and the publicity rolling. We're the Typhoid Mary that helps spread the disease.

The factors above are why some of these properties are so lucrative. If they weren't factors, anybody could make a blockbuster film. Just create a new character and do what Marvel does and you've got a hit film.

EXACTLY!!!!

And when the dust settles from the Thanos snap we will all be right here with endless discussion and hopes of the FF property making its MCU debut. And God forbid something else like Comcast prevent that from happening.

 

[KBX]

We’ll get some answers Wednesday

https://deadline.com/2018/06/fox-board-meet-next-week-consider-comcast-bid-1202411661/

 

[Big Bang]

We’ll get some answers Wednesday

https://deadline.com/2018/06/fox-board-meet-next-week-consider-comcast-bid-1202411661/

Comcast is already threatening to go past the board straight to large shareholders.


Comcast prepares to 'go to the mattresses' and take Disney fight directly to Fox shareholders, SEC filing says

 

[Marvel united]

Comcast is already threatening to go past the board straight to large shareholders.


Comcast prepares to 'go to the mattresses' and take Disney fight directly to Fox shareholders, SEC filing says

Comcast is trying to force [Fox] into negotiations because it knows that Disney has the upper hand,” said David Becher, associate professor at the Drexel University’s LeBow College of Business. “There’s a short window for them to get Fox shareholders attention.”

 

[Detective Conan]

The Comcast guy seems really determined this time.

I figure it’s partially because he’s failed in his previous merger pursuits(remember he failed to acquire both Disney & Time Warner) and those failures still haunt him to this day so he wants to make up for his previous two failures with a successful third try. In Roberts mind, he can’t fail again and is going all in; which means he’s willing to drown his company in massive debt and aggravate his shareholders to get Fox. The problem isn’t whether Disney is able to match Comcast the problem is are they willing to? Do they want Fox more than Roberts? Only time will tell.

 

[Big Bang]

I figure it’s partially because of he’s failed in his previous merger pursuits( remember he failed failed to acquire both Disney & Time Warner Cable) still haunt him to this today and wants to make up for his previous two failures with a successful third try. In Roberts mind, he can’t fail again and is going all in; which means he’s willing to drown his company in massive debt and aggravate his shareholders to get Fox. The problem isn’t whether Disney is able to match Comcast the problem is are the willing to. Do they want Fox more than Roberts? Only time will tell.

He's certainly ready to aggravate Fox's board as well.


He never really got over the rejection by Disney's board. The guy has gone so far as to try to create his own "Disney". Not that what he has assembled thus far is bad or anything.

 

[Marvel united]

Why can't Disney and Comcast split the assets? Why do analysts say it would have a tough time passing regulatory approval?

 

[wobbly]

I'm curious (and I genuinely don't know all the details on this stuff) but I've seen it being said Murdock has a fiduciary responsibility to present Comcasts offer to Fox shareholders for consideration.

But doesn't Roberts have the same responsibility to his? As in not paying well over market value and encumbering that corporation with a collosal debt?

Or don't they get a say?

I did have a Google before asking but most of the hits are news on the bid.

 

[wobbly]

Why can't Disney and Comcast split the assets? Why do analysts say it would have a tough time passing regulatory approval?

I think that was one analyst. I don't get why having it all for one is somehow a lot easier that it being split by both either.

 

[Iceman]

I figure it’s partially because he’s failed in his previous merger pursuits(remember he failed failed to acquire both Disney & Time Warner) still haunt him to this day and wants to make up for his previous two failures with a successful third try. In Roberts mind, he can’t fail again and is going all in; which means he’s willing to drown his company in massive debt and aggravate his shareholders to get Fox. The problem isn’t whether Disney is able to match Comcast the problem is are the willing to. Do they want Fox more than Roberts? Only time will tell.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about when I said "this time". I feel he will be much more likely to be reckless with his company and do anything to "win" than Iger who will have the best interests of Disney at heart, even if that means letting Comcast win the bidding process.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

That was Mephistopheles, who can't be copyrighted because it's a mythical character. Marvel's version, Mephisto, was on a list of forbidden characters that Ike Perlmutter didn't want any artists or writers using because he was part of the FF rights. If you check any of the credits, you'll see he's clearly listed as Mephistopheles.

Thanks. I don't think Marvel will use a character that is essentially Satan anyways. Maybe for Blade or Ghost Rider or even Doctor Strange, but not the Avengers.

I read many variations of this idea during production of Fant4stic, but I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now for several reasons.

First, none of us can explain exactly why Dr. Doom became an iconic character who has endured for 55 years. Ask ten people and they'll give you ten different reasons, because he's a multi-faceted character that appeals to different people for different reasons. Even Stan Lee or Jack Kirby can't tell you exactly why he became as big as he did. They created thousands of villains, but, for whatever reasons, his combination of characteristics really clicked while the others didn't. The best writers in the world can't simply create a new character who will work in the same way.

Secondly, a character like Dr. Doom crosses lines between geeks and 'regular people'. He's such a well-known character that most people have seen him in some form. They've seen him on T-Shirts, posters, cartoons etc. They've even seen (poorly rendered) versions of him in Fantastic Four films. That kind of broad recognition is why characters like Spider-Man, Superman, Batman etc. will always be bigger than some of the minor characters.

And lastly, us geeks do make a difference. We are the ones who create buzz. We talk about these things long before the film comes out, and that spills over to the people around us (even those who don't know and don't care). Those people may not know much about a film, but they know they've heard people like us saying either positive or negative things. And then we're the ones who show up on opening night (for the films that excite us). Regular people see us standing in lines and wonder what all the fuss is about. We drive opening weekend box-office numbers and those numbers spread the publicity. We make the films number one and then that number one ranking is seen by others. And we go back. We continue to keep the box office up and the publicity rolling. We're the Typhoid Mary that helps spread the disease.

The factors above are why some of these properties are so lucrative. If they weren't factors, anybody could make a blockbuster film. Just create a new character and do what Marvel does and you've got a hit film.

Fant4stic and what I'm describing is not the same thing. Fant4stic was taking popular characters and making major changes to them. That almost always gets the fans in an uproar. The more popular a character, the harder it is to change them. Selling a complete unknown or original character is significantly easier. Not only that, but Fant4stic was very obviously cheap garbage with no artistic merit very early on in the process. Kinberg and Trank are incompetent. Feige is not.

Beyond that, we've seen it with the MCU already that they are able to take unpopular or poorly known characters and make them popular. Their entire brand is basically built on it. Specifically from a villain standpoint, just look at Spider-Man. The previous three films prior to Homecoming had popular villains Venom, The Lizard, and The Green Goblin. Fans rejected all three. Then they liked the Vulture, a character who in the comics was an old man in tights that even the fans made fun of how lame he was. We live in a world where Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor outgrossed a Justice League movie released in the very same calendar year. Marvel can be very successful without Dr. Doom and Galactus. They've already been doing it.

The fans also know that Marvel isn't using them because they legally can't, not because of neglect. There is understanding there.

 

[Iceman]

I think that was one analyst. I don't get why having it all for one is somehow a lot easier that it being split by both either.

You'd think splitting would be a suggested way of appealing/compromising if a takeover was disallowed.

 

[Marvel united]

I think that was one analyst. I don't get why having it all for one is somehow a lot easier that it being split by both either.

Yeah, it makes no sense

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'm curious (and I genuinely don't know all the details on this stuff) but I've seen it being said Murdock has a fiduciary responsibility to present Comcasts offer to Fox shareholders for consideration.

But doesn't Roberts have the same responsibility to his? As in not paying well over market value and encumbering that corporation with a collosal debt?

Or don't they get a say?

I did have a Google before asking but most of the hits are news on the bid.

Yes, you are correct. The thing is, "fiduciary duty" is generally very subjective and is enforced by shareholders suing.

And since anybody can sue for anything, there are cases when shareholders file frivolous suits and, conversely, gross mismanagement may not result in a suit.

In this specific case, from my subjective opinion, Roberts hasn't gone too far … yet (though that could change), and the Comcast offer is serious enough that the Fox board would be setting themselves up for a suit if they dismissed it without solid justification.

 

[Iceman]

That offer would certainly have to be given good consideration. It is a very good and serious offer with the backing required. I don't know what the best strategy for Disney would be here as I think Roberts has every intention of outbidding whatever Disney comes back with.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Thanks. I don't think Marvel will use a character that is essentially Satan anyways. Maybe for Blade or Ghost Rider or even Doctor Strange, but not the Avengers.



Fant4stic and what I'm describing is not the same thing. Fant4stic was taking popular characters and making major changes to them. That almost always gets the fans in an uproar. The more popular a character, the harder it is to change them. Selling a complete unknown or original character is significantly easier. Not only that, but Fant4stic was very obviously cheap garbage with no artistic merit very early on in the process. Kinberg and Trank are incompetent. Feige is not.

Beyond that, we've seen it with the MCU already that they are able to take unpopular or poorly known characters and make them popular. Their entire brand is basically built on it. Specifically from a villain standpoint, just look at Spider-Man. The previous three films prior to Homecoming had popular villains Venom, The Lizard, and The Green Goblin. Fans rejected all three. Then they liked the Vulture, a character who in the comics was an old man in tights that even the fans made fun of how lame he was. We live in a world where Guardians of the Galaxy and Thor outgrossed a Justice League movie released in the very same calendar year. Marvel can be very successful without Dr. Doom and Galactus. They've already been doing it.

The fans also know that Marvel isn't using them because they legally can't, not because of neglect. There is understanding there.

Yeah, I realized even as I was typing it that I was going a little farther than your specific point, but I was on a roll, so I just went with it.

But I do think there is a real value of popular characters. Yes, GOTG is an example of relatively unknown characters working (with an excellent script, director, cast etc.), but it is an exception. And the fact that people actually showed up to terrible Justice league and other DC films shows the value of known characters.

It's not all one way or the other. Known characters aren't essential, but they do have value.

In the specific case of Dr. Doom, he is such a key, defining element of the Marvel universe, that the MCU will never feel right without him there.

Marvel is stronger with those characters, and because they are stronger with those characters, they should spend a reasonable amount, if possible, to become that stronger studio.

But you'll note that I have never put a dollar value on those rights because that's very hard to determine. But there is value.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Yeah, I realized even as I was typing it that I was going a little farther than your specific point, but I was on a roll, so I just went with it.

But I do think there is a real value of popular characters. Yes, GOTG is an example of relatively unknown characters working (with an excellent script, director, cast etc.), but it is an exception. And the fact that people actually showed up to terrible Justice league and other DC films shows the value of known characters.

It's not all one way or the other. Known characters aren't essential, but they do have value.

In the specific case of Dr. Doom, he is such a key, defining element of the Marvel universe, that the MCU will never feel right without him there.

Marvel is stronger with those characters, and because they are stronger with those characters, they should spend a reasonable amount, if possible, to become that stronger studio.

But you'll note that I have never put a dollar value on those rights because that's very hard to determine. But there is value.

616 Latverian Kroners.

 

[MahvelBaby!]

Sigh

 

[sleekstereo]

I'd rather have a Tech giant come in and take Fox from Comcast and Disney. The thought of Disney or Comcast owning more than 50% of the box office is a terrible circumstance and those companies should not have the power to control the market and at an extension, theater chains with their demands.

 

[Dark Raven]

I'd rather have a Tech giant come in and take Fox from Comcast and Disney. The thought of Disney or Comcast owning more than 50% of the box office is a terrible circumstance and those companies should not have the power to control the market and at an extension, theater chains with their demands.

Prepare for Microsoft or Apple's version of Fantastic Four and X-Men.

 

[Iceman]

I'd rather have a Tech giant come in and take Fox from Comcast and Disney. The thought of Disney or Comcast owning more than 50% of the box office is a terrible circumstance and those companies should not have the power to control the market and at an extension, theater chains with their demands.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the tech giants themselves one day control huge slices of it. They have enough cash to buy companies like this outright if they choose without having to arrange financing.