The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 4

[sleekstereo]

I've said this before in the X-Men Forum, but the ONLY way the Fantastic Four will be remotely savable at Fox is IF they put them as supporting/cameo characters in Deadpool 2. With a whole new cast.

And knowing this studio? They just might.

 

[sleekstereo]

I strongly doubt FOX would be able to merge two separate cinematic rights agreements without the Mouse's approval. And while others with inside knowledge have commented on FOX not being able to do so, the strongest evidence is that if they could, they would have done so already.

We know there is a Fantastic Four/X-Men script at Fox though. I think it all depends who Ike wants to screw over more, Fiege or Fox. lol At this point, I don't know who he dislikes more.

 

[jaymes_e06]

We have a very simple example of the value Marvel can offer to Fox if Fox is smart enough to take it.

How excited would any of us or any of our (less comic-book literate) friends, relatives, co-workers etc. be for an upcoming Spider-man film if Marvel hadn't gotten involved?

How excited are we after seeing Civil War?

Marvel knows what they're doing. They keep things fresh and interesting.

By comparison, Sony with Spider-Man and Fox with X-Men continued to make the same films over and over again until fans and reviewers got sick of them.

Fox with X-Men is in a very similar situation to where Sony was after ASM2. Fox needs to rework the X-men and inject some life into them.

They can do it on their own, or they can do it with Marvel. To me, it seems starting fresh with Marvel's help is a no-brainer.

So when a no-brainer solution is presented to management with no brains, I guess we'll see where that goes . . .

Sony and Fox are two completely different situations. People trying to liken them are reaching hard.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Sony and Fox are two completely different situations. People trying to liken them are reaching hard.

True. Sony has shown themselves to be much smarter and more able to make good superhero films than Fox.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Oh so you're delusional... because I guess MIB v 21 JS is cinematic gold to you...

That trumps even FFINO.

 

[Knight_SV]

They could have a future if they were smart about it, but I haven't heard people at Fox saying many smart things.

Do they even realize that the reason Deadpool did well was they made a film that captured the key elements of the comic-book . . . or do they just think it's because it's an R-Rated film?

I haven't seen any interviews with any Fox execs that have acknowledged that point or pledged to not give the fans the opposite of what they want again. Just the fact that Simon Kinberg is still talking and nobody at Fox has said: "Shut the f*** up and you're fired." illustrates to me that they don't get it.

If they start fresh with a mantra of giving the fans what they want and putting the right person in charge, it's not impossible for them to start doing things right. But they haven't shown any capability of doing those common-sense things in the past. So I would say it's possible. . . but not likely that they could pull things together.

And as for FF, they have close to zero chance of bringing that back. As I said, their primary objective would have to be to give fans what they want. Fantastic Four fans want one, relatively simple thing: For fox to never make another Fantastic Four film.

So that makes it impossible for them to ever make another FF film while giving fans what they want.

I don't care if they find a way to bring Jack Kirby back from the dead to act as production designer. They won't be getting any of my money.

Unfortunately that's the message fox exec got for deadpool success while like kinberg they had no input in there. Back in february in th wake of deadpool success fox mediaplayed it by having news outlets released news "plan for bla bla movie to be rated-r" b****. And fox changed wolverine 3 to be rated r now. So i kinda worried on how wolvie 3 will perform now, and if it turn out to be another XMen origins wolverine then hugh jackman will be very disappointed

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Oh so you're delusional... because I guess MIB v 21 JS is cinematic gold to you...

That trumps even FFINO.

Seriously? The only thing that makes The Amazing Spider-Man 2 look good is the realization that half of the Marvel films Fox has made were rated lower than it.

And the only thing that makes Ghost Rider 1 and 2 look good is the fact that Fox made films that were far worse.

Sony doesn't do nearly as well as Marvel, but they at least do better than Fox... and they were smart enough to realize what they were doing wasn't good enough.



Fantastic Four 2015 9%
Elektra 10%
Ghost Rider 2 Spirit of Vengeance 17%
Ghost Rider 26%
Fantastic Four 2005 27%
Fantastic Four ROTSS 37%
Wolverine (2009) 38%
Men in Black II 39%
Daredevil 44%
X-Men AOA 49%
Amazing Spider-Man 2 53%
X-Men Last Stand 58%
Spider-Man 3 63%
Men in Black III 69%
The Wolverine 70%
The Amazing Spider-Man 73%
X-Men 81%
Deadpool 83%
X2 86%
X-Men FC 87%
Spider-Man 89%
X-Men DOFP 91%
Men in Black 92%
Spider-Man 2 93 %

 

[jaymes_e06]

You literally just proved my point... there is far less of a sample size between the two to get a real understanding anyway. Not to mention all the terrible decisions they've been making lately like a ****ing Savage Land movie that isn't even the SL or the dumb idea to have a Spider-Manless Sinister Six movie...

While Fox at least are coming up with great spin off ideas like New Mutants, X-Force and Daredevil (to a lesser extent).

 

[Endeavor]

Daredevil?

#confused

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You literally just proved my point... there is far less of a sample size between the two to get a real understanding anyway. Not to mention all the terrible decisions they've been making lately like a ****ing Savage Land movie that isn't even the SL or the dumb idea to have a Spider-Manless Sinister Six movie...

While Fox at least are coming up with great spin off ideas like New Mutants, X-Force and Daredevil (to a lesser extent).

I'm talking about cold, hard reality. You're talking about things that don't even exist.

I have no interest in New Mutants. I have no interest in X-Force. Just because you like the idea of things that don't even exist doesn't mean Fox has suddenly figured out how to make good films even though 15 years of history (and 2 of the last 3 films they've made) show they don't.

 

[Dark Raven]

Fox made the acclaimed Daredevil Netflix series.

 

[Tony Stark]

You literally just proved my point... there is far less of a sample size between the two to get a real understanding anyway. Not to mention all the terrible decisions they've been making lately like a ****ing Savage Land movie that isn't even the SL or the dumb idea to have a Spider-Manless Sinister Six movie...

While Fox at least are coming up with great spin off ideas like New Mutants, X-Force and Daredevil (to a lesser extent).

The Sinister Six is a terrible idea, granted. However no one will go see a new mutants or X-Force movie who is not already a hardcore X-men fan.

Willie's point is that Sony did produce the Raimi Spider-man films which like them or not were far more popular than any of the Fox Marvel property films.

 

[jaymes_e06]

@Willie:
MIB v 21JS is in production... The people in charge at Sony don't know what they're doing and are just flowing wherever the wind blows them. Just because you don't like NM or XF doesn't mean they are bad ideas either... listen, we can go around and around but you're still going to feel what you do and I'm still going to feel the way I do.

Bottom line do you genuinely feel a damn Spider-Man Savage Land film or The Sinister Six one is better than what Fox have on the pipeline?

 

[Tony Stark]

I'm talking about cold, hard reality. You're talking about things that don't even exist.

I have no interest in New Mutants. I have no interest in X-Force. Just because you like the idea of things that don't even exist doesn't mean Fox has suddenly figured out how to make good films even though 15 years of history (and 2 of the last 3 films they've made) show they don't.

And don't worry, no one else does either. I'm shocked they're trying to make this stuff. If they are trying to be like Marvel Studios, then they clearly don't understand how Marvel Studios works. Marvel establishes character, people get interested in those characters, and they bring them together in a larger format.

One of the worst sins of X-men Apocalypse is the characters are so bland in the film. They are so bland that they had to re-establish Magneto's motivations, even though they were clearly established years ago.

Fox had the first opportunity to create a larger than life Thanos/Darkseid character and totally failed.

 

[jaymes_e06]

The Sinister Six is a terrible idea, granted. However no one will go see a new mutants or X-Force movie who is not already a hardcore X-men fan.

Willie's point is that Sony did produce the Raimi Spider-man films which like them or not were far more popular than any of the Fox Marvel property films.

I see what you mean but this isn't the past were talking about their current situation.

 

[Tony Stark]

I see what you mean but this isn't the past were talking about their current situation.

The current situation is that Marvel Studios is calling the shots with Sony only as a distributor. A pretty good situation, although we have yet to see what kind of reception Spider-man homecoming will get.

You'll get no argument from me though that even with the positive reaction from Civil War, Marvel Studios still has work to do in getting the character back to his former glory.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

@Willie:
MIB v 21JS is in production... The people in charge at Sony don't know what they're doing and are just flowing wherever the wind blows them. Just because you don't like NM or XF doesn't mean they are bad ideas either... listen, we can go around and around but you're still going to feel what you do and I'm still going to feel the way I do.

Bottom line do you genuinely feel a damn Spider-Man Savage Land film or The Sinister Six one is better than what Fox have on the pipeline?

What I don't understand is why anyone who likes the X-Men would want Fox to continue to fumble with them. Eight of the fourteen Marvel films Fox has made have been lower than 60% on RT (as have two of six X-Men films... or three of eight counting Wolverine).

Will New Mutants be Deadpool or Fant4stic? There's no way to say. Fox has released one good, one bad and one terrible Marvel film over the past year. Having Fox make a film featuring characters you want to see done right is like playing Russian Roulette with 4 bullets in the cylinder. Maybe you'll get lucky - odds say you won't.

Marvel spends more money,introduces new characters with much more success and consistently makes better films than Fox. X-Men fans should be begging for Marvel to get involved rather than continuing to roll the dice with Fox.

 

[chamber-music]

You know, this raises an important point. A few days before the film opened, Kinberg said: "I am proud of it, It’s not a disaster. It’s a good movie."

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/03/fantastic-four-simon-kinberg-defends

Now he says: "We didn't make a great movie last time out. I think we learned a lot of lessons from that experience."

So just before release, after he had seen the completed cut of the film, he made statement 1: 'I am proud of it. . . It's a good movie.' and now he makes statement 2: 'We didn't make a great movie last time out. I think we learned a lot of lessons from that experience.'

What happened between Statement 1 and Statement 2? The movie didn't change. The only thing that changed is the movie that Simon Kinberg thought was good bombed at the box office.

Why would anyone believe he truly learned anything meaningful between Statement 1 and Statement 2? He's still the same dumb guy who thought that piece of crap he gave us was good. He's just changing his story now because popular opinion is against him.

Simon Kinberg talked about the film’s shortcomings but didn't single anything out in particular on the Happy Sad Confused podcast

I don’t think that there is, in any movie that doesn’t work, a single decision that is the reason that that movie doesn’t work. I think that there were many decisions we made along the way that led to a movie that people didn’t like and to a movie that I would do differently next time. I think the biggest takeaway for me [is that] the tone of the movie, while really interesting and ambitious, ran counter to the DNA of the source material. I think the source material of Fantastic Four is bright, optimistic, poppy in tone. There’s a sort of plucky spirit to those characters, and we made a darker, sort of body-horror kind of version of Fantastic Four, which again as I say it now sounds really interesting and cerebrally ambitious, but isn’t necessarily Fantastic Four.

His FF film wasn't cerebrally ambitious at all. I don't remember anything being particularly intellectual about the movie. This movie wasn't too smart for anyone. Quit acting like that's a valid reason for its lack of popularity.

I honestly think the Tim Story movies did a better job showcasing The Things struggles than this movie did.

There is already a body-horror superhero character called Swamp Thing. Perhaps he should of tried pitching a new movie of that to WB if that was what type of film he wanted to make. He would of had the source material to draw from to back up an adaptation.

 

[jaymes_e06]

What I don't understand is why anyone who likes the X-Men would want Fox to continue to fumble with them. Eight of the fourteen Marvel films Fox has made have been lower than 60% on RT (as have two of six X-Men films... or three of eight counting Wolverine).

Will New Mutants be Deadpool or Fant4stic? There's no way to say. Fox has released one good, one bad and one terrible Marvel film over the past year. Having Fox make a film featuring characters you want to see done right is like playing Russian Roulette with 4 bullets in the cylinder. Maybe you'll get lucky - odds say you won't.

Marvel spends more money,introduces new characters with much more success and consistently makes better films than Fox. X-Men fans should be begging for Marvel to get involved rather than continuing to roll the dice with Fox.

Your trying to retool our conversation I was talking about why Sony made a deal with Marvel (their incompetence) and why Fox were not nearly as bad of a spot as Sony was.


You keep going on different tangents. Can we stay focused enough for me to finish my first point before moving on?

 

[Dasher10]

Took the words right out of my mouth. F4 failed and definately isnt getting a sequel unless they produce it on a Deadpool style 50 million budget. The two biggest characters Fox have are Wolverine and Deadpool. So I hope they find it in their heart to make it happen.

The problem is that they can't do the FF on a $50 million budget. If they did that, they'd have to get rid of Thing since he needs to be a CGI creation and they'd also need to really tone down the effects on Mr. Fantastic and Human Torch. It literally can't be done.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Your trying to retool our conversation I was talking about why Sony made a deal with Marvel (their incompetence) and why Fox were not nearly as bad of a spot as Sony was.


You keep going on different tangents. Can we stay focused enough for me to finish my first point before moving on?

Okay. Let's focus on that point. Sony and Fox both make weak Marvel films (though Sony has historically done better than Fox).

Sony was smart enough to recognize their limitations and work with Marvel.

Fox apparently isn't smart enough to do that.

That sucks for fans of the FF and X-Men.

 

[Zarex]

We know there is a Fantastic Four/X-Men script at Fox though. I think it all depends who Ike wants to screw over more, Fiege or Fox. lol At this point, I don't know who he dislikes more.

I know the FF/X-Men script has been rumored, but I haven't read anything definite regarding a script. I doubt merging a struggling franchise with a dead one is in the studio's best interests.

Ike may have lost Marvel Studios, but he's still a major player at the Disney. Reports have suggested that he played a key role in removing Tom Staggs from the CEO in waiting role, and is a huge influence on up and coming Disney execs. As a major shareholder, he 's going to make the decision that makes the most money for the Mouse.


http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/disney-bob-iger-stepping-down

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...cost-cutters-gaining-clout-in-post-staggs-era

 

[Darth_Spock]

I don't think it's simply up to Fox to say "Hey Marvel, let's make a deal"

To my understanding it was the Russo Bros. who said they fought to get Marvel to bring Spider-man over to the MCU and Civil War. Equate that with $1.3B Marvel's already making in Spider-man merchandising and it's a no-brainer.

No one currently directing a Marvel film is lobbying for Fantastic Four or X-men to be a part of their films. Not even Jame Gunn who has actually made his frustration known to not being able to use certain characters because of Fox. He simple said in an interview or something that it'll be a long time before Marvel gets those F4 characters back.

And with Singer recently out there testing the waters on a JLaw spin-off it's more clear that Fox would rather crash and burn then listen to what Fans want or swallow their pride anyway.

Marvel's strategy in this case has always been to play the waiting game till studio's concede and/or name their price. Spider-man being the rare exception.

 

[First Avenger]

Regarding F4,Sony proved they're actually smarter than Fox so far with the Spidey deal. It speaks for fox's stupidity.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Okay. Let's focus on that point. Sony and Fox both make weak Marvel films (though Sony has historically done better than Fox).

Sony was smart enough to recognize their limitations and work with Marvel.

Fox apparently isn't smart enough to do that.

That sucks for fans of the FF and X-Men.

Not really as Inhumans are being done so terribly and they the most equivalent to the X-Men.


I'm not arguing FF go back to Marvel but X-Men are fine until they really do make some terrible misstep which I've not seen just yet.