The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Willie Lumpkin]

Does anyone think that Marvel would ever give up their cut of the box office profits from the X-Men films, like they did with the Spider-Man films a few years back, in exchange for other concessions like the FF film rights and complete merchandise rights to the X-Men? If I recall they don't get that much of a percentage from those films and perhaps not having to give anything to Marvel would be a enticing enough for Fox to give up those other things.

I think they'd be reluctant to give up their cut. That gives them peace of mind that if Fox ever really figures something out and their films take off, Marvel will be making money off of them.

But I keep coming back to merchandising because I think that's a win/win. Right now, neither studio is making money off of X-Men film merchandise. So a deal on merchandise (not completely turned over but with both studios taking a cut) could give Fox money and marketing they're not getting now and Marvel could get money they're not getting now. And if Marvel can get FF in the deal, they get that and Fox doesn't really give anything up. So that would be the kind of deal that could do a whole lot of good things for both studios with no real down-side for either.

I was just in Disney World, and I saw a lot of merchandise that featured Marvel characters and Spider-Man. I didn't see a single item that featured X-Men or Fantastic Four. Even if Fox wasn't making a dime off the merchandise, just having the X-Men in those stores next to all the Marvel characters would be huge marketing for the X-Men.

 

[SAUspartan]

I see this thread is still going. haha.

 

[Zarex]

I see this thread is still going. haha.

It's slowed down after the FFINO apologists ran off with their tails between their legs. Luckily, the actual Fantastic Four fans stuck around.

 

[Boom]

I remain confident that the Fantastic Four will be back in Marvel's hands by Phase Four.

Dr. Doom could easily be the big bad of the MCU after Thanos.

 

[wobbly]

Does anyone think that Marvel would ever give up their cut of the box office profits from the X-Men films, like they did with the Spider-Man films a few years back, in exchange for other concessions like the FF film rights and complete merchandise rights to the X-Men? If I recall they don't get that much of a percentage from those films and perhaps not having to give anything to Marvel would be a enticing enough for Fox to give up those other things.

They don't see much at all from the box office iirc. Something like 5% I think? Not even sure if that's gross or net points either. The latter would need a at least 3 hundred million in net profits for Marvel to get just $15mil. The former, they'd see far less still.

Where they were making money was in merchandising for the films, taking over 50% of the profits from that, but they have not supported Fox films with any mass produced merch for some time now (some collector items is about all).

That was a deliberate measure, as Fox saw a good chunk of that remaining plus 40%. Disney don't like making money for someone else if they can help it, especially when they do want these characters back eventually.

So a deal where Marvel gets nothing from the box office? Fox probably wouldn't be swayed by that as they have never paid Marvel much anyway.

It may well be likely that Marvel have paid Fox more for their cut in the merch over the years: According to rumour, it was having to cut Fox a cheque that sent Ike into a tantrum with him having X-Men and FF posters taken down from the Marvel offices, and removing them for merch with art that had included them originally (Original Secret Wars cover, the official poster of Marvel characters etc).

 

[ehh]

Ike is like a little child.

 

[ADollarADay]

Does anyone think that Marvel would ever give up their cut of the box office profits from the X-Men films, like they did with the Spider-Man films a few years back, in exchange for other concessions like the FF film rights and complete merchandise rights to the X-Men? If I recall they don't get that much of a percentage from those films and perhaps not having to give anything to Marvel would be a enticing enough for Fox to give up those other things.

No. Spiderman was different, IIRC at one point, Sony owned 50% of ALL spidey merchandise rights (not only tied to the movie). Marvel sued Sony for 1/4 rights and after Disney bought them, they purchased the other 1/4. That's why on Amazing Spiderman 1 and 2 Disney actually PAYS Sony a fee.

Yeah, Marvel was giving stuff away back in the days, but AFAIK the deal with Fox is straight up for merchandise directly related to the movie (probably why most deadpool and the recent Marvel merchandise are all based on the comics and not the movies).

They don't see much at all from the box office iirc. Something like 5% I think? Not even sure if that's gross or net points either. The latter would need a at least 3 hundred million in net profits for Marvel to get just $15mil. The former, they'd see far less still.

Where they were making money was in merchandising for the films, taking over 50% of the profits from that, but they have not supported Fox films with any mass produced merch for some time now (some collector items is about all).

That was a deliberate measure, as Fox saw a good chunk of that remaining plus 40%. Disney don't like making money for someone else if they can help it, especially when they do want these characters back eventually.

So a deal where Marvel gets nothing from the box office? Fox probably wouldn't be swayed by that as they have never paid Marvel much anyway.

It may well be likely that Marvel have paid Fox more for their cut in the merch over the years: According to rumour, it was having to cut Fox a cheque that sent Ike into a tantrum with him having X-Men and FF posters taken down from the Marvel offices, and removing them for merch with art that had included them originally (Original Secret Wars cover, the official poster of Marvel characters etc).

It's probably from the gross. If it's from the net, hollywood accounting would pretty much guarantee Marvel doesn't see a dime from the movies. The only reason I say probably is because made some bad deals back then, so I'm not sure...

 

[wobbly]

It's probably from the gross. If it's from the net, hollywood accounting would pretty much guarantee Marvel doesn't see a dime from the movies. The only reason I say probably is because made some bad deals back then, so I'm not sure...

Yup. I got them the wrong way round in my post: Gross points is where the money is. At 5% they'd see $5mil for every $100mil. Net points...Far less (if any) by the time the 'accounting' is done.

And when these deals were originally sealed they did get hosed on them, though they maybe had enough sense to know that net points are pretty much worthless no matter what the % is.

That being said, I recall Arid saying Marvel got a better deal with the FF when they granted Fox an extension in 98/99, having seen bugger all returns from the profitable Blade movie beforehand. That would suggest that their deal with X-Men (which afaik has never been renegotiated?) isn't for gross points, and the only significant money they can make from the movies is from merch, which also earns Fox more money.

 

[NotNickFury]

It may well be likely that Marvel have paid Fox more for their cut in the merch over the years: According to rumour, it was having to cut Fox a cheque that sent Ike into a tantrum with him having X-Men and FF posters taken down from the Marvel offices, and removing them for merch with art that had included them originally (Original Secret Wars cover, the official poster of Marvel characters etc).

A rumor from who or where? Otherwise, that all sounds like hearsay.

 

[wobbly]

A rumor from who or where? Otherwise, that all sounds like hearsay.

It was bleeding cool that ran with the rumor of Ike having a tantrum over at the Marvel offices and having posters torn down, but that hearsay was soon backed up with the FF comic being cancelled (officially on extended haitis), Wolverine was killed off, The Inhumans were given a big push in the books over the creation of new mutants (that Fox automatically can use), and the X-Men and FF were indeed being removed from merchandising with art that had originally included them.

Some links I found with a quick google search:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10...s-arent-allowed-to-create-new-characters-now/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/05...uctions-not-to-use-fantastic-four-characters/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10...-645-as-january-kicks-off-fantastic-fourever/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05...c-four-license-from-xm-studios-in-mid-sculpt/

http://io9.gizmodo.com/whats-behind-marvels-campaign-to-remove-the-x-men-from-1707514860

While I'd agree the Ike cutting Fox a check and having a fit over that is hearsay (why I called it a rumor, not a fact) what came after are facts that do add weight to it.

 

[ehh]

Didn't Marvel publish a comic where the Punisher kills the cast of the F4 reboot?

 

[Endeavor]

yes they did

 

[ehh]

It's a shame because I actually really liked the cast of the F4 reboot.

 

[Flint Marko]

Remember how people wanted this version of the FF to crossover with the X-men? Good times.

 

[Dark Raven]

It was bleeding cool that ran with the rumor of Ike having a tantrum over at the Marvel offices and having posters torn down, but that hearsay was soon backed up with the FF comic being cancelled (officially on extended haitis), Wolverine was killed off, The Inhumans were given a big push in the books over the creation of new mutants (that Fox automatically can use), and the X-Men and FF were indeed being removed from merchandising with art that had originally included them.

Some links I found with a quick google search:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10...s-arent-allowed-to-create-new-characters-now/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/05...uctions-not-to-use-fantastic-four-characters/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/10...-645-as-january-kicks-off-fantastic-fourever/

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05...c-four-license-from-xm-studios-in-mid-sculpt/

http://io9.gizmodo.com/whats-behind-marvels-campaign-to-remove-the-x-men-from-1707514860

While I'd agree the Ike cutting Fox a check and having a fit over that is hearsay (why I called it a rumor, not a fact) what came after are facts that do add weight to it.

Those altered Secret Wars pictures look a bit dumb. Secret Wars was a historic event, so they should leave it as it was. And why wasn't Thor on the cover of issue #1 in the first place?

If they had a picture of Incredible Hulk #180, would they replace Wolverine with someone else?

And why did they take out the then-Captain Marvel and replace her with Luke Cage? She isn't part of Fox.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

And why did they take out the then-Captain Marvel and replace her with Luke Cage? She isn't part of Fox.

That's an interesting point, and I think it may raise another issue Perlmutter was accused of.

I remember reports that Feige was pushing for more female characters, but Perlmutter reportedly didn't like the idea of female characters.

The first image has 4 female characters while the 'fixed' one only has 1. They could have easily added Black Widow, Wasp, Red Witch or Carol Danvers version of Captain Marvel etc. if they simply wanted to feature characters from Marvel films, but it seems like they were getting rid of FF, X-Men and also women.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

http://time.com/3847432/marvel-ceo-leaked-email/

A new exchange dug out of the trove of leaked Sony emails suggests that Marvel Entertainment CEO Ike Perlmutter questioned the profitability of a female-led superhero film just months before the company announced the upcoming Captain Marvel movie.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Wait. I just looked at the images again. They took Wasp (bottom left) off!.

So that clearly seems to indicate an anti-woman effort. They started with five women - three of them Marvel - and took away everybody but She-Hulk.

 

[Dark Raven]

Why didn't they just go the whole hog and take out She-Hulk too?

They could easily have put in the MCU women and left in Wasp, given that she is going to feature in Ant-Man and the Wasp, even if it's the Hope Van Dyne version.

 

[Zarex]

Unfortunately, the excising of folks with lady bits from t-shirts is not uncommon. Widow and Gamora were kept off of a lot of Avengers and Guardians merchandise. Even Wondy gets replaced with less prominent members of the JL. It may seem sexist, but it has proven to be quite effective in preventing an outbreak of "cooties".

 

[Dark Raven]

I'm guessing WW will not show up on any merchandising for her movie then. It will just be Steve Trevor.

And Carol Danvers will be strangely absent from T-shirts of her own movie.

 

[Zarex]

Diana and Carol should be fine as products featuring them will specifically be targeted towards the ladies. The Steve Trevor and Mar-vell (the REAL CM, amirite?) products will be just for the fellas.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

It may seem sexist, but it has proven to be quite effective in preventing an outbreak of "cooties".

 

[wobbly]

http://time.com/3847432/marvel-ceo-leaked-email/

A new exchange dug out of the trove of leaked Sony emails suggests that Marvel Entertainment CEO Ike Perlmutter questioned the profitability of a female-led superhero film just months before the company announced the upcoming Captain Marvel movie.

Nothing about frugal Ike would surprise me tbh.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

Wait. I just looked at the images again. They took Wasp (bottom left) off!.

So that clearly seems to indicate an anti-woman effort. They started with five women - three of them Marvel - and took away everybody but She-Hulk.

While you could argue 'anti-woman' agenda, the reality is they replaced characters that are under Fox's cinematic control and inserted those characters that had planned series/movies coming out.

Additions including Thor, Black Panther, Dr. Strange (all MCU), Daredevil, Power-Man, Iron Fist (all Netflix) and Black Bolt (MCU/ABC?). Why the Wasp was dropped was maybe because her appearance in Ant-Man was a bit of an Easter Egg.