The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Web-Head]

He also focused on them saying "We have enough films to keep us busy" well, what's one more?

 

[I Am The Knight]

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/m...ider-man-captain-marvel-diversity-1201923851/

Ouch.

 

[Endeavor]

He also focused on them saying "We have enough films to keep us busy" well, what's one more?

Including FF in the MCU wouldn't even require one more film. They could easily be added into the Infinity Wars movies for example, as well as any other upcoming film already in their slate. It worked for Black Panther and Spidey in Civil War.

 

[Endeavor]

To me, the only disheartening thing about this article is that he didn't come out and admitted that the FF are back home. Everything else is just business as usual as far as this topic is concerned. Back to hoping...

 

[Darepool]

I remember a few months back Feige saying the Inhumans were still part of Marvel Studios plans after the delay. Now we have a TV announcement for a show on ABC. Is that what he meant? I don't think so. He isn't going to show his cards or discuss possible negotiations with Variety. At least not "at this juncture"

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/m...ider-man-captain-marvel-diversity-1201923851/

The FF were never on the level of the Spider-Man in popularity and a joint development deal with Fox just wouldn't make sense the way it worked with Sony. I don't understand why anyone even entertains this notion. I mean with Spider-Man you're talking about a character that made over a billion dollars in merchandising alone without Marvel making the movies. Clearly it's in Marvel's interests to keep that gravy train rolling whatever it takes. Not so with X-Men and FF. No such financial incentives exist.

The way I read this is Marvel is dealing from a position of strength with regards to Fox's leasing of their characters and will not budge on the deals they have in place. After seeing yet another C-list character turned into box office gold with Dr. Strange they've just blown the doors off on the universe they've established with virtually endless possibilities. They feel very confident in the IPs they have at this point and have no need to try and barter with Fox or overextend themselves to reclaim on these bad deals from the 90's.

Who knows what happened with Legion and Ego the Living Planet and Negasonic Teenage Warhead etc.? These are all very minor developments IMO and at best indicate improved relationships between the companies which is great. But for FF to come home it's going to happen when Fox finally stops making these movies and Marvel gets them back for FREE. I think that's Marvel's stance and they're sticking with it.

If Fox is determined to make Fant4stic2 well then so be it. Have fun with THAT.

 

[NotNickFury]

Wait, why are the deals bad? I mean, they had to get out of debt somehow.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Wait, why are the deals bad? I mean, they had to out of debt somehow.

Yeah short term it helped them out but long term they were terrible. You don't negotiate deals that can exist in perpetuity or give up rights to characters that haven't even been invented yet. Avi Arad has admitted in interviews to having been hosed in the X-Men negotiations by FOX by not understanding "studio accounting", net points vs gross points, etc. in his first film rights negoiation back in 1993. He was able to secure more favorable deals later on, including with the FF but they still weren't great. There should have been quality clauses or something to give Marvel a way to take command of how their characters are portrayed in this medium. Fox has arguably run the brand into the toilet.

 

[Zarex]

Wait, why are the deals bad? I mean, they had to get out of debt somehow.

Marvel got out of debt by filing for bankruptcy protection - a full three years after Marvel signed the X-Men deal with FOX. Marvel has made some money off of the Spidey deal due to merchandise sales, but the X-Men and FF live action licensing agreements have been dogs since the day Arad signed them.

 

[Orba]

I don't think it is of particular surprise, there is no financial incentive for Marvel and Fox to work together (unlike with Marvel Sony), its really just the sort of thing we have discussed here since forever. Also if Marvel do want the FF franchise back they will not be wanting to show any weakness towards Fox, they will say exactly what Feige said, which is that Marvel have plenty of stuff to do without needing anything from Fox. As we have said plenty of times here, Marvel know that the FF rights are ticking away till they revert. Last time Fox and Marvel played rights chicken with FFINO was made and lost Fox at least $100 million.

 

[Zarex]

The sticking point for me is the TV rights deal Marvel signed off with FOX last year. The deal makes no sense whatsoever if it was just in exchange for a piece of "Legion" and the mutants on the run show FOX has in the pipeline.

The TV deal increases FOX's hold on the X-Men franchise and adds another competitor in a very crowded field for superhero television. And with just a few tweaks Marvel could have done both shows solo and kept all of the money themselves. I am sticking to my belief that Marvel got at least some character rights back in that transaction.

 

[Darepool]

Certainly the other option, just wait it out.

 

[Darepool]

The sticking point for me is the TV rights deal Marvel signed off with FOX last year. The deal makes no sense whatsoever if it was just in exchange for a piece of "Legion" and the mutants on the run show FOX has in the pipeline.

The TV deal increases FOX's hold on the X-Men franchise and adds another competitor in a very crowded field for superhero television. And with just a few tweaks Marvel could have done both shows solo and kept all of the money themselves. I am sticking to my belief that Marvel got at least some character rights back in that transaction.

Possibly, but why not announce it then? The only reason not to would be a surprise reveal in a film for the fans, but even if that were the case it's a long shot to keep it secret with todays social media.

 

[ADollarADay]

The FF were never on the level of the Spider-Man in popularity and a joint development deal with Fox just wouldn't make sense the way it worked with Sony. I don't understand why anyone even entertains this notion. I mean with Spider-Man you're talking about a character that made over a billion dollars in merchandising alone without Marvel making the movies. Clearly it's in Marvel's interests to keep that gravy train rolling whatever it takes. Not so with X-Men and FF. No such financial incentives exist.

The way I read this is Marvel is dealing from a position of strength with regards to Fox's leasing of their characters and will not budge on the deals they have in place. After seeing yet another C-list character turned into box office gold with Dr. Strange they've just blown the doors off on the universe they've established with virtually endless possibilities. They feel very confident in the IPs they have at this point and have no need to try and barter with Fox or overextend themselves to reclaim on these bad deals from the 90's.

Who knows what happened with Legion and Ego the Living Planet and Negasonic Teenage Warhead etc.? These are all very minor developments IMO and at best indicate improved relationships between the companies which is great. But for FF to come home it's going to happen when Fox finally stops making these movies and Marvel gets them back for FREE. I think that's Marvel's stance and they're sticking with it.

If Fox is determined to make Fant4stic2 well then so be it. Have fun with THAT.

I disagree with some of what you said, but the one point I want to touch on is that XMen were extremely popular in the 90s, not spiderman level, but a very clear 2nd. Matter of fact, XMen, Spiderman, and maybe Hulk were the only really major Marvel IPs back then where they were really well known to non comic book fans.

Iron man and Cap were pretty much unknown entities, Dr Strange was, well, strange to everyone, Black Panther was a feline animal, Winter soldier was a soldier in the winter, and GoTG might as well have been a fan made fiction. Blade was unarguably more well known then the aforementioned characters due to the movies.

To this day XMen still represents a lot to a lot of people, even beyond comics, and they are still extremely well known.

My point is Marvel/Disney would take a Spider man shared deal for XMen (which I think is bad unless long term the IP comes back under their control). The franchise is too powerful and full of potential. Just like Spiderman can easily make Ironman 3 like money for solo entries, XMen ensemble movies can easily make Avengers like money while solo entries can make Avengers solo entries like money IMO.

Disney/Marvel could easily pay for the distribution rights Fox probably owns (production is probably Constantins, but they could wait that out while owning the distro rights) for FF. At this point I don't think it would even cost them the $115MM+ they paid for the distribution rights of Ironman 3 and Avengers or whatever they paid for the distribution rights for IM, IM2, Thor, and Cap: FA. FF, today, is a damaged, tainted, unwanted, and volatile franchise. Buying those rights would be easy, IMO.

I think the reason they haven't done so is the same reason why they haven't bought Hulk's (and Namor's?) distribution rights from Universal. Disney wants to get everything, not just a piece of the pie.

 

[GoblinScrier]

It's not the news I wanted to read, I kept hoping that by end of Infinity War, that F4 and Doom would rear their heads and become part of the MCU...guess Kevin killed that news...I still can't believe that in his mind that all of the villains that the F4 has doesn't sound more appealing than 50 percent of what will end up being the villains in a lot of these upcoming films...Doom could rule several phases since he is THE signature villain...Galactus could unite a lot of the characters, I mean it just doesn't make sense but I guess we just hope that one day it all comes together but it sounds like it could be many many years before its even a possibility...personally I don't want the X-Men near the MCU only because it could take over and a lot of the smaller franchises we have or will get won't see the light of day...F4 fits in perfectly!

 

[Darepool]

Awareness and popularity are two different things.

Everyone knew who Captain America was, but it doesn't mean they were running out and buying his comics or merch back in the day to the level of other characters.

 

[Orba]

It's not the news I wanted to read, I kept hoping that by end of Infinity War, that F4 and Doom would rear their heads and become part of the MCU...guess Kevin killed that news...I still can't believe that in his mind that all of the villains that the F4 has doesn't sound more appealing than 50 percent of what will end up being the villains in a lot of these upcoming films...Doom could rule several phases since he is THE signature villain...Galactus could unite a lot of the characters, I mean it just doesn't make sense but I guess we just hope that one day it all comes together but it sounds like it could be many many years before its even a possibility...personally I don't want the X-Men near the MCU only because it could take over and a lot of the smaller franchises we have or will get won't see the light of day...F4 fits in perfectly!

The only thing this news killed was the idea of Marvel working together with Fox on movies like they do with Sony (which most of us already thought was extremely unlikely), it does not mean that Marvel might not get back the F4 franchise in order to allow them to make their own films with it.

 

[Zarex]

My point is Marvel/Disney would take a Spider man shared deal for XMen (which I think is bad unless long term the IP comes back under their control). The franchise is too powerful and full of potential. Just like Spiderman can easily make Ironman 3 like money for solo entries, XMen ensemble movies can easily make Avengers like money while solo entries can make Avengers solo entries like money IMO.

But what would be Marvel's incentive for a Spidey type deal with the X-Men franchise? The X-Men have never moved merchandise and while FOX controls an awful lot of mutants the only ones with any BO appeal right now are Wolverine and Deadpool. The guy playing the first character is retiring while the second character would be a poor fit in the MCU. And I strongly disagree that the X-Men movies could ever compete with Avengers films or the solo features like Gambit: The Movie could compete with the best of the MCU.

Disney/Marvel could easily pay for the distribution rights Fox probably owns (production is probably Constantins, but they could wait that out while owning the distro rights) for FF. At this point I don't think it would even cost them the $115MM+ they paid for the distribution rights of Ironman 3 and Avengers or whatever they paid for the distribution rights for IM, IM2, Thor, and Cap: FA. FF, today, is a damaged, tainted, unwanted, and volatile franchise. Buying those rights would be easy, IMO.
.

Why are we still talking about Constantin? Notice how that name never came up when the Ego/Negasonic deal was disclosed? The company isn't a factor in Marvel live action rights.

And I don't see the incentive for Disney to distribute another studio's films, even if FOX would agree to the deal. Disney's distribution deal with Dreamworks came to an end because the Mouse had to much on its own plate to worry about what Speilberg's company was cooking up.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I disagree with some of what you said, but the one point I want to touch on is that XMen were extremely popular in the 90s, not spiderman level, but a very clear 2nd. Matter of fact, XMen, Spiderman, and maybe Hulk were the only really major Marvel IPs back then where they were really well known to non comic book fans.

Iron man and Cap were pretty much unknown entities, Dr Strange was, well, strange to everyone, Black Panther was a feline animal, Winter soldier was a soldier in the winter, and GoTG might as well have been a fan made fiction. Blade was unarguably more well known then the aforementioned characters due to the movies.

To this day XMen still represents a lot to a lot of people, even beyond comics, and they are still extremely well known.

My point is Marvel/Disney would take a Spider man shared deal for XMen (which I think is bad unless long term the IP comes back under their control). The franchise is too powerful and full of potential. Just like Spiderman can easily make Ironman 3 like money for solo entries, XMen ensemble movies can easily make Avengers like money while solo entries can make Avengers solo entries like money IMO.

Disney/Marvel could easily pay for the distribution rights Fox probably owns (production is probably Constantins, but they could wait that out while owning the distro rights) for FF. At this point I don't think it would even cost them the $115MM+ they paid for the distribution rights of Ironman 3 and Avengers or whatever they paid for the distribution rights for IM, IM2, Thor, and Cap: FA. FF, today, is a damaged, tainted, unwanted, and volatile franchise. Buying those rights would be easy, IMO.

I think the reason they haven't done so is the same reason why they haven't bought Hulk's (and Namor's?) distribution rights from Universal. Disney wants to get everything, not just a piece of the pie.

I won't deny that X-Men aren't (or weren't) mega popular but you can't buy what ain't for sale and it's unclear to me how Marvel would make money on a joint deal when Fox struggles to make an X-Men film that grosses more than 500M worldwide. DOFP was the first and that was their largest X-film to date merging two different casts in an epic event style film. Whatever piece of the pie Fox has however they aren't giving that up.

Whereas with Sony, things are pretty simple - thanks to the merchandising side of things. Sony still makes the movie and makes their money. Marvel just gets the control to do it right - to sell more Spidey stuff and keep their premier brand out of the gutter.

 

[Snaaaaake!]

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/m...ider-man-captain-marvel-diversity-1201923851/

Fox controls the film rights to “The X-Men” and “The Fantastic Four.” Could you partner with them on a movie as you did with Sony?

It’s an impossibility at this juncture. We certainly have enough films to keep us busy for a number of lifetimes.

We've discussed this a few days ago. Fox doesn't have anything to offer Marvel that would warrant bailing them out like with Sony. Spidey merch makes Marvel over a billion a year. XM an FF wouldn't even bring in $100M a year combined on merchandising.

So Marvel is standing their ground by letting Fox continue to hang themselves. Especially if the only ace up their sleeve is allowing that idiot Simon Kinberg to script a soft reboot of X-men again and/or make a 4stic sequel.

Also don't be surprised if the new director of the Deadpool sequel part ways before shooting starts. John Wick wasn't a good movie due to Keanue Reeves telling David Leitch and Chad Stahelski what to do. So unless Leitch is comfortable with being a yes man I doubt he'll go for it with RR of all actors once he finds out what he's getting himself into.

 

[NotNickFury]

Also don't be surprised if the new director of the Deadpool sequel part ways before shooting starts. John Wick wasn't a good movie due to Keanue Reeves telling David Leitch and Chad Stahelski what to do. So unless Leitch is comfortable with being a yes man I doubt he'll go for it with RR of all actors once he finds out what he's getting himself into.

Sounds like you'd rather that the Deadpool sequel fail so long as it hinders Fox.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

"Impossibility" is an interesting word. What makes a partnership impossible as opposed to simply unlikely or not something Marvel is interested in or actively pursuing?

The statement seems to raise more questions than it answers, and I wish the interviewer would have followed up. "So a partnership is out of the question. Are you working to lock down the FF rights for yourself? Do you expect Fox to make an FF film before the reversion date?" etc. etc.

I doubt Feige would have offered much more information, but fans have a lot of questions that Feige isn't answering.

 

[ADollarADay]

Awareness and popularity are two different things.

Everyone knew who Captain America was, but it doesn't mean they were running out and buying his comics or merch back in the day to the level of other characters.

Me personally, I kinda knew who he was, mainly due to this show and because of Randy Couture (UFC fighter who had "Captain America" as one of his nicknames). I had no idea who iron man was.

But what would be Marvel's incentive for a Spidey type deal with the X-Men franchise? The X-Men have never moved merchandise and while FOX controls an awful lot of mutants the only ones with any BO appeal right now are Wolverine and Deadpool. The guy playing the first character is retiring while the second character would be a poor fit in the MCU. And I strongly disagree that the X-Men movies could ever compete with Avengers films or the solo features like Gambit: The Movie could compete with the best of the MCU.

I think a "Gambit" movie could get Ant man like numbers under Marvel's banner. No one thought Ant man would get to that, but yet it did. No one thought a random movie about a tree with one sentence could do what it did or a dr strange movie could do what it is doing. A Gambit movie could be rather interesting, I have no intention of seeing it under Fox, but would be very interested to see it under Marvel. Same for some of the other mutants.

I vehemently disagree on your assessment that XMen wouldn't compete with Avengers for money. XMen was way more popular than the avengers in the 90s and early 2000s and are still revered today. They definitely have the potential, and we'll see how the next big super hero ensemble movie (Justice League) and the next Avengers do (i.e. if they will get to that $1.5B), but XMen could definitely be in that talk.

I also strongly disagree that Deadpool would be a poor fit for the MCU. He would be perfect. His solo movies, would of course be of a different tone than when he is part of the cast. If Punisher and DD fit in the MCU, Deadpool sure as hell does too.

Why are we still talking about Constantin? Notice how that name never came up when the Ego/Negasonic deal was disclosed? The company isn't a factor in Marvel live action rights.

And I don't see the incentive for Disney to distribute another studio's films, even if FOX would agree to the deal. Disney's distribution deal with Dreamworks came to an end because the Mouse had to much on its own plate to worry about what Speilberg's company was cooking up.

Good point about Constantin. It is still talked about, but they might not hold anything outside of distribution rights in Germany and Austria. I agree with your second point, hence why I said Disney would buy the rights from Fox like they did with Paramount.

I won't deny that X-Men aren't (or weren't) mega popular but you can't buy what ain't for sale and it's unclear to me how Marvel would make money on a joint deal when Fox struggles to make an X-Men film that grosses more than 500M worldwide. DOFP was the first and that was their largest X-film to date merging two different casts in an epic event style film. Whatever piece of the pie Fox has however they aren't giving that up.

Whereas with Sony, things are pretty simple - thanks to the merchandising side of things. Sony still makes the movie and makes their money. Marvel just gets the control to do it right - to sell more Spidey stuff and keep their premier brand out of the gutter.

I don't think XMen are mega popular anymore, but a reboot in the MCU could be exactly what is needed. Marvel has the upper hand in this negotiation, I mean they got the movie rights to a whole important-ish character just by letting fox make small changes to a character they already owned the movie rights to. I just hope the rights are all coming home and Feige is being coy on purpose.

 

[GoblinScrier]

"Impossibility" is an interesting word. What makes a partnership impossible as opposed to simply unlikely or not something Marvel is interested in or actively pursuing?

The statement seems to raise more questions than it answers, and I wish the interviewer would have followed up. "So a partnership is out of the question. Are you working to lock down the FF rights for yourself? Do you expect Fox to make an FF film before the reversion date?" etc. etc.

I doubt Feige would have offered much more information, but fans have a lot of questions that Feige isn't answering.

Thank you! The few times he is interviewed about this topic, the interviewer NEVER grills him on all the possibilities of what could happen...I know Kevin wouldn't answer them probably but it would be nice to see someone being a total fanboy while getting to interview and ask...what if?

 

[NotNickFury]

"Impossibility" is an interesting word. What makes a partnership impossible as opposed to simply unlikely or not something Marvel is interested in or actively pursuing?

The statement seems to raise more questions than it answers, and I wish the interviewer would have followed up. "So a partnership is out of the question. Are you working to lock down the FF rights for yourself? Do you expect Fox to make an FF film before the reversion date?" etc. etc.

I doubt Feige would have offered much more information, but fans have a lot of questions that Feige isn't answering.

I don't see any journalist asking those kinds of leading questions that may as well say 'In a word, do you have Fantastic Four, yes or no.' That's something people on this forum would ask, but probably not a writer just doing a story.