The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Willie Lumpkin]

With all due respect to Gunn, he wouldn't be in the loop for these things: Ie: He'd be told who he can and can't use for the film he is currently working on or planning for the future, but would not be privy to any ongoing negotiations or changes being made beyond the film he is working on at the time.

True. IF* a deal was done in late fall, that is likely a tightly guarded secret and a specific plan is being laid out for introduction of those characters. Those characters almost certainly won't be introduced in GOTG 2, so Gunn has no reason to know about any deals and no ability to work with those characters even if Marvel currently has more control than they previously did.



*Note - the "If" was made larger so that it's literal size matches it's figurative size.

 

[Zarex]

I'm confident a deal was done. Now whether it was immediate release of the FF rights, a delayed release, a promise to release the rights at the set reversion date or some other dual arrangement, that is to be determined.

 

[Kanon]

True. IF* a deal was done in late fall, that is likely a tightly guarded secret and a specific plan is being laid out for introduction of those characters. Those characters almost certainly won't be introduced in GOTG 2, so Gunn has no reason to know about any deals and no ability to work with those characters even if Marvel currently has more control than they previously did.



*Note - the "If" was made larger so that it's literal size matches it's figurative size.

I'm sure if that deal is done or close to be done, lot of prominent actors and directors of MS know something about it, at least bits and pieces and rumours withing the company. And of course they couln't talk about it even if they are certain something is going on. I'm confident something like that is happening, I feel like every official player is avoiding the subject lately (except the Russos's, joking about Galactus and such)

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'm confident a deal was done. Now whether it was immediate release of the FF rights, a delayed release, a promise to release the rights at the set reversion date or some other dual arrangement, that is to be determined.

I suspect that it might still be evolving.

I can imagine something like an agreement in October 2015 to work together on the X-Men TV shows along with a letter of intent to work toward a Sony-type deal on FF that would allow FF characters to be used in Marvel Films and co-production of FF films and more co-operation and possible future X-Men/Marvel crossovers.

But I can imagine that agreement being very general with the details still TBD and they might still be working out those details at this moment.

But while I can only guess at the details, I believe a major change occurred in the Fox/Marvel relationship in the Fall of 2015. Legion will be the first real result of the new relationship, but I believe Legion is just the tip of the iceberg and other results will be trickling out slowly over time.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'm sure if that deal is done or close to be done, lot of prominent actors and directors of MS know something about it, at least bits and pieces and rumours withing the company. And of course they couln't talk about it even if they are certain something is going on. I'm confident something like that is happening, I feel like every official player is avoiding the subject lately (except the Russos's, joking about Galactus and such)

I just feel the way you really keep something secret is limit the number of people who know. As Ben Franklin said - 'Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.'

But I agree that if somebody does know, they would be instructed to answer as if nothing has changed.

 

[wobbly]

I just feel the way you really keep something secret is limit the number of people who know. As Ben Franklin said - 'Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead.'

But I agree that if somebody does know, they would be instructed to answer as if nothing has changed.

I cant remember who said it (might have been Whedon) but I do recall it being said they have guy at Marvel with a broad 'spreadsheet' on what characters Marvel hold and can use, and the ones held by others that they cant (might well have had details on reversion dates). I would imagine access to this document is extremely limited given the only real info we have ever seen of the t&c's from a contract came from court papers for the Mutant X lawsuit.

Gunn for sure wasn't aware the Badoon were off limits for GOTG.

Given how little is known I'd guess only a handful of people at Disney/Marvel know all the details and are in the loop for any ongoing deals or possible reversions, and whoever they might be they sure wont talk about it until it's confirmed.

Any changes that might occur are then fed down on a 'need to know' basis, like the Russos with Spider-man: They prepared 2 scripts, one with him and the other without in case the Sony deal didn't pan out.

It does make sense to 'compartmentalise' such information. If they let any given Director or writer or something in on everything and they fell out, Disney wouldn't want them dishing the details (intentionally or not) and violating the obvious NDA's that are in place for the existing contracts.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Gunn for sure wasn't aware the Badoon were off limits for GOTG.

And in the quote above he wasn't even sure about Kang. I suspect we spend more time studying these things than Gunn does.

He probably thinks about various characters and then asks the higher ups if he can use them. His quote may have resulted from a conversation in summer of 2015 in which he asked: "Hey, can I use Annihilus" and was told by Kevin Feige: "No, Fox has him as part of the FF rights."

And in other cases, he might have asked about other characters and told he couldn't use them because they were already penciled in somewhere else. Who has the rights probably isn't the primary question regarding who can be used. It's probably more often a matter of whether Feige and others want that character introduced at that time in that way.

 

[wobbly]

I'm confident a deal was done. Now whether it was immediate release of the FF rights, a delayed release, a promise to release the rights at the set reversion date or some other dual arrangement, that is to be determined.

I'd like to be confident, but as far as the FF and Fox goes I'd err on the side of caution and settle for 'deal could have been done' or 'could be done' rather then being more certain one has or will.

If our hopes pan out though I would not expect an announcement until nearing or into Phase IV. So maybe around 2018/19/20. F4 for Phase 4...Yes please.

The longer there's no news from Fox planning for another swing & miss the better, whatever is going on bts.

 

[TheVileOne]

There's no question deals across segments of a company can be difficult. Like Marvel Entertainment trading the cinematic licensing fee to an arachnid themed superhero in exchange for Disney Consumer Products controlling the merchandising rights to said character. Or, to get even more crazy, ESPN releasing a veteran sports announcer from his contract in exchange for Disney Animation controlling rights to an old timey cartoon rabbit.

Nothing but media hogwash that was concocted for sensationalist purposes. Al Michaels tells a different story. From The New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/25/sports/michaelss-life-you-cant-make-this-up.html

“I know it’s fun to write about the rabbit,” Michaels said. “But the deal was already done, and I didn’t want to be the center of attention. Someone came up with the idea that the Disney heirs wanted this rabbit. At the end of the day, everybody was in agreement that some people in the press will think there is some nefarious thing about my breaking a contract. So the rabbit was thrown in. It was fun, but the deal was done, and Oswald or no Oswald, I’m at NBC for the past nine years.”

As for Spider-Man, what happened there was the result of Disney's buyout of Marvel that officially went into effect at the beginning of 2010. Previous film right deals at other studios had remained intact. It was simply an exchange of Sony keeping all the film rights in perpetuity for Spider-Man and Disney got back all the merchandising rights, including for the Spider-Man films. They made out like bandits from that deal and it was one of the smartest deals ever made in 2011. Without that deal, the later production deal with Marvel and Sony might never have happened.

Desperate? Who said anything about desperation? FOX was likely motivated by WB earning $1M per episode from Netflix for the Gotham streaming fees and wanted in on the action. They had an asset on hand that had zero value to FOX which also happened to be one the TV rights holder, Disney/Marvel, coveted.

But since you brought up the word, let's flip it. Why would Disney be so desperate to get additional TV licensing fees on top of the eleventy billion or so programs they have in production that they would relinquish exclusive control over Marvel branded television programming?

Your characterizing that Fantastic Four 2015 bombing was the catalyst of finishing the one year deal. Fox was ready to put those rights on the table to get the X-Men TV rights they wanted.

Disney is a big company. You make it sound like they don't have the money or infrastructure in place to get involved in more shows right now. What's happening with this TV deal is nothing out of the ordinary. TV works differently than it does in film. A network will air content that's technically produced and owned by competitors.

Why wouldn't Disney even bother to ask for early release of the FF live action rights in exchange when there are numerous reports that they had requested at least some of those rights multiple times in the past?

Because there's absolutely no evidence they did.

Why was Disney so desperate to make this deal that they would concede the one bargaining tool for getting back the live action rights to their characters, which have proven to be extremely lucrative on both the big and small screen?

It's hardly their only bargaining tool. I see no desperation from Disney on their part.

The fact is this. All of Disney's Marvel TV products are considered as canonical to the greater MCU. Anything they did with X-Men wouldn't really fit in with that. The X-Men film properties are set up elsewhere, and they can't use mutants in the films. It wouldn't work to have mutants and X-Men characters on TV that can't transition over to the films as well. Hence why Inhumans or people with powers are essentially used as the stand-in for mutants for the TV shows.

So this TV deal lets them have their cake and eat it too. They get some more skin in the game and get to profit off of Fox producing new X-Men TV shows.

At the end of the day, Disney is still playing with the better deck. They have the best hand. They have the best cards. Disney's the alpha dog of this pack and Fox is the beta. I see no desperation here at all on Disney's part. They've made out like villains in all of this.

Why didn't Disney execs walk out of the negotiating room when FOX refused to put the FF rights on the table? Why would FOX cling to a useless property like grim death?

Because studios and corporations are very petty and vindictive when it comes to IP. The IP of Fantastic Four may no longer have value to Fox, but it still has value to Disney. If Disney got those rights back as fans want them too and Marvel did something great and new with Fantastic Four, that would make Fox look even worse. Yes, even worse than making three bad Fantastic Four movies. Their stockholders would be furious. I'm not saying it's smart, but that's the reality of such things.

What was the "juice" that FOX used to get Disney/Marvel to cut a TV deal after seven years of Disney disinvestment in the X-Men family of characters?[/QUOTE]

Obviously, Marvel is clearly getting input and a cut of this production. Jeph Loeb is clearly getting his own say so. And Marvel is officially co-producing another TV pilot with Fox. We don't know what this show is, but clearly, Marvel is getting something out of this deal to be listed as a co-producer.

 

[TheVileOne]

You demand a high level of facts and proof that the status of the rights has changed, but you have no facts that "prove" the status of the rights hasn't changed.

I'm not demanding a high level of facts at all. I'm simply asking for facts over clickbait or misleading articles. Instead of random websites claiming they have sources in various articles. Only for these so-called website articles with so-called sources to disappear not long after.

http://www.screengeek.net/2016/07/1...astic-four-partnership-with-fox-at-comic-con/

Observe the link and then notice how nothing is there anymore.

 

[Duker Jay]

I'm just glad we have TheVileOne here to set us all straight...

 

[Zarex]

I enjoy the give and take, but Disney licensing live action rights to a Mouse owned IP is an extremely rare situation. While Disney has sold off characters such as the Power Rangers before, I can't think of a time in which Disney handed control over Disney characters to an outside entity. I don't believe Disney would have done so without receiving considerable compensation in return. We shall see.

 

[Docker2.0]

I'm just glad we have TheVileOne here to set us all straight...

The purpose of this thread is "keep hope alive" but yet people keep responding to him. TVO loves to debate. You just have to ignore him. I like the guy but it is what it is. You will lose all hope debating him.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I just posted this poll http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=520203 to see what people think on the broad question. Forget about all the details. Who do you think will eventually be the one to make the next FF film.

 

[Web-Head]

(Crosses fingers for Reed Richards)

https://***********/elmayimbe/status/789161541639688196

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

(Crosses fingers for Reed Richards)

https://***********/elmayimbe/status/789161541639688196

It would certainly seem to be hard to do anything close to the Illuminati with the current characters. They could potentially add Black Bolt and Namor (which would be cool), but that would still seem a highly watered-down version.

Though I guess the whole MCU is watered down without Reed Richards, Doom and Galactus.

 

[Web-Head]

It would certainly seem to be hard to do anything close to the Illuminati with the current characters. They could potentially add Black Bolt and Namor (which would be cool), but that would still seem a highly watered-down version.

Though I guess the whole MCU is watered down without Reed Richards, Doom and Galactus.

Yeah, they could do Tony, T'Challa, Strange, Namor and Black Bolt.

 

[Dark Raven]

I just posted this poll http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=520203 to see what people think on the broad question. Forget about all the details. Who do you think will eventually be the one to make the next FF film.

If it's Fox, then it will be a director with only one credit to his name, called Tosh Jrank.

No-one will see through the disguise.

Because Fox will need another puppet.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I found this article that has a little more context:

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/778289-illuminati-marvel-doctor-strange#/slide/1

At today’s press conference for the film, Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige was asked whether the comics’ Illuminati, of which Strange is a key member, might play a role in future films.

“What’s fun about the Illuminati,” Feige responded, “is seeing certain characters interact with certain other characters. I don’t know about that particular storyline, but some of those characters we’ll be seeing together onscreen in the next ‘Avengers.'”

So Feige didn't even raise the topic, but was asked. And his answer just mentions that some character will be there (prusamably Stark, T'Challa and Strange), so I doubt he's even planning to have a group called "The Illuminati" at this point.

I think having a group called the Illuminati without Reed Richards, Xavier, Namor and Black Bolt (and don't know if any of those characters will be showing up soon) would just remind people like us what is missing.

... but it could be something to hope for much farther down the line.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

If it's Fox, then it will be a director with only one credit to his name, called Tosh Jrank.

No-one will see through the disguise.

Because Fox will need another puppet.

Has anybody with any artistic talent ever drawn Trank and Kinberg as FF villains? Probably too good for them.

 

[TheVileOne]

Just because he's talking about Illuminati, doesn't mean he's talking about Reed Richards. Marvel has most of those characters film rights already. He could've just have been easily referring to Doctor Strange and Tony Stark, and Doctor Strange is supposed to be in Infinity War.

 

[Docker2.0]

Just because he's talking about Illuminati, doesn't mean he's talking about Reed Richards. Marvel has most of those characters film rights already. He could've just have been easily referring to Doctor Strange and Tony Stark, and Doctor Strange is supposed to be in Infinity War.

Bro just stop.

 

[Web-Head]

Just because he's talking about Illuminati, doesn't mean he's talking about Reed Richards. Marvel has most of those characters film rights already. He could've just have been easily referring to Doctor Strange and Tony Stark, and Doctor Strange is supposed to be in Infinity War.

I don't think anyone implied that he was talking about Reed Richards.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Has anybody with any artistic talent ever drawn Trank and Kinberg as FF villains? Probably too good for them.

just for you, Willie

 

[Dark Raven]

Lol.

Is there a second image? I can't see it.