The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 9

[GeckoMoria]

Seems unlikely. Their relationships looks to be a bit improved. Everyone knows that support for another film even on a decent budget and a possibility that it was more faithful simply won't bring audiences back without Marvel.

The relationship with Marvel tv might have been improved. feige and Marvel Studios have nothing to do with marvel TV. I have really bad experience with properties i love at Fox. They clinged to DD for years and there were almost going to make another one even after elektra flopped. They just don't want to give Marvel anything at all.

I'm a little pessimistic but something tells me they will try again. After 5 years have passed they will think they will have the leeway and they will announce another one.

 

[Spiderine]

The relationship with Marvel tv might have been improved. feige and Marvel Studios have nothing to do with marvel TV. I have really bad experience with properties i love at Fox. They clinged to DD for years and there were almost going to make another one even after elektra flopped. They just don't want to give Marvel anything at all.

I'm a little pessimistic but something tells me they will try again. After 5 years have passed they will think they will have the leeway and they will announce another one.

I disagree. We know they are talking or else they would not have made the Ego deal. Not talking at all is a bad sign that that these two studios are not willing to work together at all to benefit themselves. Its at the very least a positive sign that something happens behind the scenes.

 

[Zarex]

The relationship with Marvel tv might have been improved. feige and Marvel Studios have nothing to do with marvel TV. I have really bad experience with properties i love at Fox. They clinged to DD for years and there were almost going to make another one even after elektra flopped. They just don't want to give Marvel anything at all.

I'm a little pessimistic but something tells me they will try again. After 5 years have passed they will think they will have the leeway and they will announce another one.

Here's why they won't - the numbers don't work. They can't put an origin story on-screen for a third time, they can't go with a cheaper budget - the last one looked like garbage - and they can't increase it. If you can tell us how FOX can put an FF film into production within 5 years without losing tens of millions of dollars again, I (and the Murdochs) would love to hear it

 

[GeckoMoria]

I disagree. We know they are talking or else they would not have made the Ego deal. Not talking at all is a bad sign that that these two studios are not willing to work together at all to benefit themselves. Its at the very least a positive sign that something happens behind the scenes.

When feige was asked if the ice was beginning tot hawn between te two studios, he answered no. The fact that both of them were forced to talk in order for the two characters (EGo and negasonic) to appear in their respective films doesn't mean anything. it was a necessary development. That doesn;'t indicate that their is a shift in their relationship. feige as adamant on that and i think he knows better. of course Fox co-operates with Marvel TV but that's it. Feige has no involment on marvel TV whatsoever.

 

[GeckoMoria]

Here's why they won't - the numbers don't work. They can't put an origin story on-screen for a third time, they can't go with a cheaper budget - the last one looked like garbage - and they can't increase it. If you can tell us how FOX can put an FF film into production within 5 years without losing tens of millions of dollars again, I (and the Murdochs) would love to hear it

Simple. They will greenlight it if they have a grear script. You all asume that the next Fanstic 4 will be crap because none of you wants to acknowledge the fat that there is a chance of them making a good fan4stic film. And i don't want to hear about the previous movies or Fan4stic. Fox at least in the padt years is more hit than miss even if i ddon't like how they handle the potential of their Marvel IPs in general. The truth remains that if they approve another F4 film, there is a chance it will be a good one.

I'm sorry if some of you don't want to hear this...

 

[DyfeddRex]

When feige was asked if the ice was beginning tot hawn between te two studios, he answered no. The fact that both of them were forced to talk in order for the two characters (EGo and negasonic) to appear in their respective films doesn't mean anything. it was a necessary development. That doesn;'t indicate that their is a shift in their relationship. feige as adamant on that and i think he knows better. of course Fox co-operates with Marvel TV but that's it. Feige has no involment on marvel TV whatsoever.

And what, in retrospective, was he saying after the initial Sony Leaks did he say when at first the deal fell through? About the same, if I recall. Face it, if they want to bring the FF to the MCU, they want that moment of Shock & Awe, one that will make the boys at the Pentagon even sit back and go "damn, that's how you should do it".

Both sides will keep mum on this, all we out here can do, unless we want to play "Eh Maybe" in the mockumentary on this all some day, is speculate, piece together the few clues we have, and pray, maybe even sacrifice a few jars of chocolate covered cashews to Squirrel Girl or a offer to be Loki's shill in a poker game to get our wishes granted.

 

[GeckoMoria]

And what, in retrospective, was he saying after the initial Sony Leaks did he say when at first the deal fell through? About the same, if I recall. Face it, if they want to bring the FF to the MCU, they want that moment of Shock & Awe, one that will make the boys at the Pentagon even sit back and go "damn, that's how you should do it".

Both sides will keep mum on this, all we out here can do, unless we want to play "Eh Maybe" in the mockumentary on this all some day, is speculate, piece together the few clues we have, and pray, maybe even sacrifice a few jars of chocolate covered cashews to Squirrel Girl or a offer to be Loki's shill in a poker game to get our wishes granted.

Damn, you must have a killer supplier....

 

[DyfeddRex]

Damn, you must have a killer supplier....

Of chocolate covered cashews? I figured on crowd sourcing that, actually.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Simple. They will greenlight it if they have a grear script. You all asume that the next Fanstic 4 will be crap because none of you wants to acknowledge the fat that there is a chance of them making a good fan4stic film. And i don't want to hear about the previous movies or Fan4stic. Fox at least in the padt years is more hit than miss even if i ddon't like how they handle the potential of their Marvel IPs in general. The truth remains that if they approve another F4 film, there is a chance it will be a good one.

I'm sorry if some of you don't want to hear this...

To make a good film, you have to INVEST and you have to attract a good director.

I'm a skeptical Fox manager. Sell me on why I should invest in a property that has made less money with each successive film, and now has a fanbase that is actively and vocally opposing another film.

I'm a talented director. Sell me on the idea that I should wade into this swamp and deal with insanely vitriolic tweets from day 1.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Director: "Well, after your blood tests and hair test come back testing for hallucinogens comes back, we'll show you what we got."

Manager: "We cut a deal, we just fund and distribute it, the guys with the magic touch actually make it for us, and have all creative control."

 

[Spiderine]

When feige was asked if the ice was beginning tot hawn between te two studios, he answered no. The fact that both of them were forced to talk in order for the two characters (EGo and negasonic) to appear in their respective films doesn't mean anything. it was a necessary development. That doesn;'t indicate that their is a shift in their relationship. feige as adamant on that and i think he knows better. of course Fox co-operates with Marvel TV but that's it. Feige has no involment on marvel TV whatsoever.

Yeah.....Heard all this before. Answers of denials, no progress, no movement, we are at an impasse, no decisions made, no talks, no change in relationships, no cooperation, moving forward with plans, no agreement made, etc etc etc etc.....
Because they are always eager to update the public on every detail.

If we listen to these comments by studio heads then we should be lining up for The Amazing Spiderman 3.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Simple. They will greenlight it if they have a grear script. You all asume that the next Fanstic 4 will be crap because none of you wants to acknowledge the fat that there is a chance of them making a good fan4stic film. And i don't want to hear about the previous movies or Fan4stic. Fox at least in the padt years is more hit than miss even if i ddon't like how they handle the potential of their Marvel IPs in general. The truth remains that if they approve another F4 film, there is a chance it will be a good one.

I'm sorry if some of you don't want to hear this...

The Vegas line on that would be a wonderful payout. The real issue is fanboy/fangirl acceptance of another Fox attempt, though. Yes, there is a chance it could be good. But face it, after the attempts so far, we need GREAT to wash the bad taste out of our mouths. And GREAT requires the MCU to far too many. Or at least some input from real Marvel Bullpen vets.

 

[Spiderine]

To make a good film, you have to INVEST and you have to attract a good director.

I'm a skeptical Fox manager. Sell me on why I should invest in a property that has made less money with each successive film, and now has a fanbase that is actively and vocally opposing another film.

I'm a talented director. Sell me on the idea that I should wade into this swamp and deal with insanely vitriolic tweets from day 1.

I would love to hear that one guy in the Fox boardroom who raises his hand and says.........We got to keep the FF away from those successful guys at Marvel and the only way to do it is to make another film. Whose wit me?

 

[Zarex]

Simple. They will greenlight it if they have a grear script. You all asume that the next Fanstic 4 will be crap because none of you wants to acknowledge the fat that there is a chance of them making a good fan4stic film. And i don't want to hear about the previous movies or Fan4stic. Fox at least in the padt years is more hit than miss even if i ddon't like how they handle the potential of their Marvel IPs in general. The truth remains that if they approve another F4 film, there is a chance it will be a good one.

I'm sorry if some of you don't want to hear this...

Hey we've heard every on this thread, so don't worry about offending anybody. But we've also actually looked at the numbers. To the math!

The last FF film did a whopping $168M at the WW BO. Even if FOX pulls off the Citizen Kane of Irradiated Space Explorer movies, no sane person can expect Fant4stic: Requiem to double that number in the next installment. But let's say for s&g that FOX doubles the BO from the prior installment. Wonderful! $336M is the best they can hope for and tops the high water mark set back in 2005.

Now let's talk about cost. The last one cost $120M, was yet another origin story and looked like hot garbage. A fully powered team on-screen for the whole film is going to run quite a bit more. Let's say they get 'er done for $150M. Add $75M in promotional costs (low, but let's use it as a placeholder). Total costs are $225M. What a bargain!

So lets be generous and figure that FOX gets 50% of BO receipts. And we'll leave out Marvel's licensing fee. In our best case scenario FOX loses $57M at the BO.

FOX will make up some of that on TV licensing, but the fact remains. In a best case scenario they still lose tens of millions of dollars.

It's fine to have a gut feeling that FOX is obsessed with screwing over their partner in Legion, Gifted, and the Hulu skinny bundle. But you can't ignore the numbers.

 

[Spiderine]

The Vegas line on that would be a wonderful payout. The real issue is fanboy/fangirl acceptance of another Fox attempt, though. Yes, there is a chance it could be good. But face it, after the attempts so far, we need GREAT to wash the bad taste out of our mouths. And GREAT requires the MCU to far too many. Or at least some input from real Marvel Bullpen vets.

Even if they managed to make it "great" they basically have to Batman Begins this thing. It has to be a critical success with movie goers. It wont make much money because it has to be the film to right the ship and earn some trust. Thats asking for a lot of patience in order to do it. Batman Begins had it easy in 2005. This thing would come in an age where Avengers/Justice league films and various big budget crossovers are being made.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

The Vegas line on that would be a wonderful payout. The real issue is fanboy/fangirl acceptance of another Fox attempt, though. Yes, there is a chance it could be good. But face it, after the attempts so far, we need GREAT to wash the bad taste out of our mouths. And GREAT requires the MCU to far too many. Or at least some input from real Marvel Bullpen vets.

I've seen many people on here claim in slightly different ways: "The fans don't matter. All they have to do is make a good film."

But that's complete BS. If the fans don't matter, why worry about a property like FF at all? Just pull any anonymous property out, wave a magic wand over it and make a great, profitable film.

Fans are what it's all about. That's why we see so many sequels, reboots and films based on popular books, video games etc. Film studios hate taking risks, and the way they avoid risk is they make a film based on something that has fans who will show up on opening weekend. FF would be even more risky than a completely unknown property, because like with Fant4stic, we fans would actively 'sabotage' another FF and give it bad word-of-mouth even before it arrived.

If fans didn't matter, Deadpool never would have happened. It only happened because, after seeing the 'leaked' footage, fans said: "make the film and we'll show up"

We are telling Fox the opposite regarding FF, and if Fox ignores us, they'll do so at their own peril.

 

[The Overlord]

I've seen many people on here claim in slightly different ways: "The fans don't matter. All they have to do is make a good film."

But that's complete BS. If the fans don't matter, why worry about a property like FF at all? Just pull any anonymous property out, wave a magic wand over it and make a great, profitable film.

Fans are what it's all about. That's why we see so many sequels, reboots and films based on popular books, video games etc. Film studios hate taking risks, and the way they avoid risk is they make a film based on something that has fans who will show up on opening weekend. FF would be even more risky than a completely unknown property, because like with Fant4stic, we fans would actively 'sabotage' another FF and give it bad word-of-mouth even before it arrived.

If fans didn't matter, Deadpool never would have happened. It only happened because, after seeing the 'leaked' footage, fans said: "make the film and we'll show up"

We are telling Fox the opposite regarding FF, and if Fox ignores us, they'll do so at their own peril.

I think fans matter, but so does the general audience and really a lot of good comic book movies take liberties with their adaptions, Guardians of the Galaxy certainly did that.

I think some fans think if an adaption is not exactly like the comic (some fans wanted Kilgrave to have a Croatian accent, even though being Croatian is not important to the character, its just where he happened to have been born according the Marvel hand book) it is flawed.

I know some fans were angry about how the Mandarin as handled in the movies, but a true to the comics Mandarin was not going to happen in an era when China is becoming the world's biggest market for movies.

Really some elements from the comics either became dated or never worked well in the first place and sometimes changing an adaption is the only way to have a plot twist or do something the audience does not expect.

I do not know how many people thought BTAS ruined Mr. Freeze.

A good adaption can change the details but honor the spirit of the original work, which Fan4stic failed to do.

Doom is not the type of character who has to be radically changed to be compelling, but I would argue other B-list villains like Wizard, Puppet Master, Mole Man, Red Ghost, Diablo, Mad Thinker etc could use some changes, because frankly they have either never been compelling or have only been occasionally compelling in the comics.

 

[TheVileOne]

Changes to Zemo in MCU still sucked

 

[The Overlord]

Changes to Zemo in MCU still sucked

I think it would have been tricky to make a Nazi with a purple sock on his head work in live action.

I think Zemo is one of the better movie villains and I think they can make him more like the comic book version in future movies, but this definitely one of those times where some changes were needed.

Really Cap needs another Hydra/Nazi villain like he needs a hole in his head, so I am glad they changed Zemo's back ground and gave him a more sympathetic motive then trying to avenge his WW2 era Nazi war criminal father. They can expand on his planning and organization abilities as the films go on.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think it would have been tricky to make a Nazi with a purple sock on his head work in live action.

Why? They made a talking tree and raccoon work.

I think Zemo is one of the better movie villains and I think they can make him more like the comic book version in future movies, but this definitely one of those times where some changes were needed.

Except he wasn't much of a villain.

Really Cap needs another Hydra/Nazi villain like he needs a hole in his head, so I am glad they changed Zemo's back ground and gave him a more sympathetic motive then trying to avenge his WW2 era Nazi war criminal father. They can expand on his planning and organization abilities as the films go on.

There was no point in making him Zemo.

 

[The Overlord]

Why? They made a talking tree and raccoon work.

And they changed Mandarin into a different character.

Really some characters are going to work better in the different settings.

GotG was a goofy space adventure, Civil War was a more serious political thriller, different things work with different tones.

Frankly Baron Zemo in the comics is a little convoluted. Captain America killed his dad after his dad killed Bucky and left him trapped in ice for decades and Zemo somehow is still young due to some chemicals his dad created and they fought Cap knocked him into some hot glue and now he wears a purple sock on his head to hide his disfigured face.

None of that would have made Civil War a better film, it would have slowed film down and ruined the pacing and I doubt the general public would have found this motive compelling.

Except he wasn't much of a villain.

He managed to tear the Avengers apart despite being just a guy with black op skills, I think that is impressive. Its more then a lot of these villains managed to do.

There was no point in making him Zemo.

So what, should they have never used Zemo then or should they have made him another Hydra/Nazi agent and retread the same beats from the previous films?

 

[harryoscop]

You have to wonder what Marvel's take on the FF would actually be like considering their approach with Spider-Man is to make everything different then before (they literally said that) even if it flies in the face of the comics.

So while you'd guys almost certainly get a 5x better film than all four of Fox's attempt s, do you think you'd get the definitive adaption of the FF comics everybody is hoping for? What if they apply their approach from Spider-Man to the FF? And what exactly would a reinvented F4 look like?

One thing's for certain, Fox probably is not going try again given how bad Fant4stic performed but it's a really interesting discussion to be had.

 

[harryoscop]

I could also see Marvel doing something like this for them

I personally hope they go back to retro white & blue color scheme

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You have to wonder what Marvel's take on the FF would actually be like considering their approach with Spider-Man is to make everything different then before (they literally said that) even if it flies in the face of the comics.

So while you'd guys almost certainly get a 5x better film than all four of Fox's attempt s, do you think you'd get the definitive adaption of the FF comics everybody is hoping for? What if they apply their approach from Spider-Man to the FF? And what exactly would a reinvented F4 look like?

One thing's for certain, Fox probably is not going try again given how bad Fant4stic performed but it's a really interesting discussion to be had.

That's the nice thing about having had three films that were all so completely off-base. The closer you get to the comics, the less recognizable it will be from the Fox efforts. Spider-man's a lot tougher because they came pretty close to capturing key elements over five films.

But despite some people believing the first two films were close to FF, they felt way, WAY off to me.

And I've never been a literalist. I'm fine with changes to the details as long as the key characteristics are maintained. Fox was so far off on the key characteristics that any reasonable effort should be a huge improvement.

 

[TheVileOne]

And they changed Mandarin into a different character.

Movie Mandarin sucked too.

Really some characters are going to work better in the different settings.

GotG was a goofy space adventure, Civil War was a more serious political thriller, different things work with different tones.

So? Guardians of the Galaxy still makes Rocket and Groot into believable, fully realized three dimensional characters.

Frankly Baron Zemo in the comics is a little convoluted. Captain America killed his dad after his dad killed Bucky and left him trapped in ice for decades and Zemo somehow is still young due to some chemicals his dad created and they fought Cap knocked him into some hot glue and now he wears a purple sock on his head to hide his disfigured face.

Seems par for the course for the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Especially with Norse Gods running around.

None of that would have made Civil War a better film, it would have slowed film down and ruined the pacing and I doubt the general public would have found this motive compelling.

Then he shouldn't have been Zemo. Make him a different character. Use a different name. Just grab some other random Marvel character name instead of ruining Zemo. Making Zemo into that guy was utterly pointless.

Everything about the Marvel Universe is arguably convoluted.

He managed to tear the Avengers apart despite being just a guy with black op skills, I think that is impressive. Its more then a lot of these villains managed to do.

Except he really didn't. The Avengers are still around and are going to get back together anyway to fight Thanos.

So what, should they have never used Zemo then or should they have made him another Hydra/Nazi agent and retread the same beats from the previous films?

They shouldn't have used Zemo and just used another fitting character to make more sense.