The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 9

[terry78]

Marvel has the rights to Taskmaster, right?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Your right. I don't know how long FOX could continue that charade. The clock is ticking as is.

"Charade" is the perfect word, and they're not fooling anyone. I'd be willing to bet something happens in the next two years - before we get so close to the deadline that Marvel has no reason to offer anything.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we hear something relatively soon. I'll be thrilled but not overly surprised. It's just a matter of time.

 

[DyfeddRex]

Marvel has the rights to Taskmaster, right?

I think so, as Taskmaster is more of a Cap foe, not an xmen foe.

 

[terry78]

Apparently in the books he's a foe of Scott Lang as well.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Marvel could probably package 4 or 5 solid characters and get the complete FF rights in return. It might seem lopsided, but Fox could get 5 characters to strengthen their X-Men franchise or cling to a bunch of characters they can't use at all.

 

[Dark Raven]

I think so, as Taskmaster is more of a Cap foe, not an xmen foe.

He's an Avenger foe rather than Cap's. His first appearance was in Avengers #195.

 

[ADollarADay]

Do you think if FOX asked Marvel for permission to use Taskmaster in Deadpool in exchange for Doom's rights to Marvel that Marvel accepts that deal?

If it's permission to use Taskmaster on a lease for one/two/x movies OR x numbers of years AND then the rights revert back to Marvel automatically without any way to extend it without an amendment whereas Marvel completely gets the rights back to Doom, yes.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we hear something relatively soon. I'll be thrilled but not overly surprised. It's just a matter of time.

I posted something on another message board, maybe I'll paste it here at a later time, but in a nutshell, evidence suggests that - in order for the full extension to take place - Fox would have to pay Marvel an extension fee maybe up to 11 months after the previous movie release or the rights would revert back. I think that's what happened with Ghost Rider, IIRC the rights reverted to Marvel like a year after the 2nd GR movie released.

That means Fox would have to pay an extension fee by July 2016. I wonder if they did that.

Marvel could probably package 4 or 5 solid characters and get the complete FF rights in return. It might seem lopsided, but Fox could get 5 characters to strengthen their X-Men franchise or cling to a bunch of characters they can't use at all.

Not a good idea. Marvel shouldn't be giving up any more characters, but just work on getting their movie rights back. Imagine giving up "solid" characters that they worked so hard to get back on people's good graces like DD, GR, and Punisher to watch Fox destroy them again. Part of the reason why I have been vehemently against the SM deal with Sony.

 

[Vader's Fist]

To go slightly off topic, something I've found strange is the complete absence of promotional items based on Fox's Marvel movies. I'm talking about toys aimed at kids, Sideshow collectibles, Lego sets, the list goes on. I'm even talking about Funko Pop dolls, which every single piece of current popular entertainment has been licensed towards. The question then is did Fox somehow lose the rights to make merchandise or are they just not bothered to promote their movies in that way? If it's the latter, well, that's pretty lousy since I happen to know someone who was hoping for a statue based on Jackman's Wolverine .

 

[Orba]

Marvel has the rights to Taskmaster, right?

If I remember Taskmaster was supposed to have been a part of the Deadpool film rights bundle back when New Line had them but when the Deadpool character moved to Fox Taskmaster appears to have returned to Marvel.

To go slightly off topic, something I've found strange is the complete absence of promotional items based on Fox's Marvel movies. I'm talking about toys aimed at kids, Sideshow collectibles, Lego sets, the list goes on. I'm even talking about Funko Pop dolls, which every single piece of current popular entertainment has been licensed towards. The question then is did Fox somehow lose the rights to make merchandise or are they just not bothered to promote their movies in that way? If it's the latter, well, that's pretty lousy since I happen to know someone who was hoping for a statue based on Jackman's Wolverine .

Fox never had the rights to make merchandising, that is all controlled by Marvel who then have to split the profits with Fox. And with the success of the MCU Marvel prefer to focus on that since it is more successful and they don't have to split the money with anyone. Fox can make promotional items to advertise film releases but those are part of the advertising and are not made for profit.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I posted something on another message board, maybe I'll paste it here at a later time, but in a nutshell, evidence suggests that - in order for the full extension to take place - Fox would have to pay Marvel an extension fee maybe up to 11 months after the previous movie release or the rights would revert back. I think that's what happened with Ghost Rider, IIRC the rights reverted to Marvel like a year after the 2nd GR movie released.

This is a very interesting point and I had heard something about a "maintenance fee". But at this moment, I would be surprised if Fox simply allows them to lapse like that. I would suspect the maintenance fee is something in the ballpark of maybe $500,000 to $1,000,000, and I suspect that if Fox said: "Okay, let's just get this over with. Write us a check for $20,000,000 and you can have the rights", Marvel would write that check, so I think a cash deal like that would be more likely than them just letting them lapse for nothing.

BUT if we get to 2019 and it's clear nothing is happening, Fox might decide it's not even worth paying that fee and they'll revert that way.

Not a good idea. Marvel shouldn't be giving up any more characters, but just work on getting their movie rights back. Imagine giving up "solid" characters that they worked so hard to get back on people's good graces like DD, GR, and Punisher to watch Fox destroy them again. Part of the reason why I have been vehemently against the SM deal with Sony.

I was thinking more along the lines of Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Taskmaster and other characters that could be useful to Fox but aren't well known and likely won't be needed any time soon by Marvel, and as you also mentioned in your post, Marvel could put a time-limit on them so they'd be giving up almost nothing.

But with that in mind, let's go a little farther with a hypothetical. Let's say Fox offered the complete FF rights and in return Marvel would have to give them the rights to Taskmaster, Ghost Rider, Blade and Morbius. Only those characters and no related characters and Fox would have them as part of their X-Men package and control them as long as they have that package.

If you were Marvel, would you take that deal? I think I would. I'd be getting Galactus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, Kang, Annihilus, and the complete FF among others. Sure, I'm probably going to get them eventually anyhow, but locking down those major, major characters might be worth giving up the characters I mentioned.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

To go slightly off topic, something I've found strange is the complete absence of promotional items based on Fox's Marvel movies. I'm talking about toys aimed at kids, Sideshow collectibles, Lego sets, the list goes on. I'm even talking about Funko Pop dolls, which every single piece of current popular entertainment has been licensed towards. The question then is did Fox somehow lose the rights to make merchandise or are they just not bothered to promote their movies in that way? If it's the latter, well, that's pretty lousy since I happen to know someone who was hoping for a statue based on Jackman's Wolverine .

Fox never had the rights to make merchandising, that is all controlled by Marvel who then have to split the profits with Fox. And with the success of the MCU Marvel prefer to focus on that since it is more successful and they don't have to split the money with anyone. Fox can make promotional items to advertise film releases but those are part of the advertising and are not made for profit.

Yeah, and this is something I've been thinking about for a long time. One deal the would make a lot of sense would be Fox turning over the FF rights and Marvel agreeing to make some minimum amount (let's say $80 million annual sales as an example) of Fox/X-Men merchandise.

That would not only put money in Fox's pocket, but more importantly it would help Fox in marketing of their films. Toys, T-Shirts etc. aren't just things for people to buy, they're marketing. Every time somebody sees those things, they're thinking about the films and it makes them more interested in seeing the films. Kids who play with X-Men toys just get that much more excited about the next X-Men film.

So Fox would get a big advantage out of that deal and Marvel would get some revenue from merchandise they're not currently selling. The only thing Marvel would give up is a little bit of shelf-space for Marvel merchandise, and there is a limit to how many Iron-Man action figures they can sell anyway.

 

[ADollarADay]

This is a very interesting point and I had heard something about a "maintenance fee". But at this moment, I would be surprised if Fox simply allows them to lapse like that. I would suspect the maintenance fee is something in the ballpark of maybe $500,000 to $1,000,000, and I suspect that if Fox said: "Okay, let's just get this over with. Write us a check for $20,000,000 and you can have the rights", Marvel would write that check, so I think a cash deal like that would be more likely than them just letting them lapse for nothing.

BUT if we get to 2019 and it's clear nothing is happening, Fox might decide it's not even worth paying that fee and they'll revert that way.

It probably is that cheaper, or possibly cheaper, for Fox to pay the renewal fee. Remember, they only have to pay Marvel about 2% of the BO gross for XMen movies, presumably a similar percentage for FF movies, and a bit higher for Deadpool. However, they would probably have had to make that decision already.

I think Legion and Gifted, Ego/Negasonic, Marvel pushing deadpool and logan (they have never pushed a competitor's movie like that), along with things such as XMen push in the comics, XMen toys/merch showing up again, Watchers/Adam Warlock in GOTG2 make the possibility of Fox having let the rights lapse in exchange for the above. There's been a lot of smoke within the past 12/18 months or so. Matter of fact, I would think that's a better deal for Fox than Marvel, and I would hope that Marvel got more out of it than just the FF rights, but they probably didn't.

I was thinking more along the lines of Negasonic Teenage Warhead, Taskmaster and other characters that could be useful to Fox but aren't well known and likely won't be needed any time soon by Marvel, and as you also mentioned in your post, Marvel could put a time-limit on them so they'd be giving up almost nothing.

Negasonic movie rights already belonged to Fox. Marvel got a character full movie rights back in exchange for allowing Fox to change some things about a character they owned. That would be okay for the most part (except if Fox wanted to, say, make X-23 fly and shoot laser beam out of her eyes).

But with that in mind, let's go a little farther with a hypothetical. Let's say Fox offered the complete FF rights and in return Marvel would have to give them the rights to Taskmaster, Ghost Rider, Blade and Morbius. Only those characters and no related characters and Fox would have them as part of their X-Men package and control them as long as they have that package.

If you were Marvel, would you take that deal? I think I would. I'd be getting Galactus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, Kang, Annihilus, and the complete FF among others. Sure, I'm probably going to get them eventually anyhow, but locking down those major, major characters might be worth giving up the characters I mentioned.

I would not, no. If Fox came with that offer on the table, they would be open to a cash deal as well, and that would be preferable, either upfront or through a backend deal.

 

[wobbly]

I think Marvel would take that deal, but I don't know about Fox. At some point they've got to do an all or nothing. If Fox loses Doom and other key characters in small deals, they'll be left holding a big bag of nothing.

I'd say they are already there tbh. Even with Doom etc what they have with the FF, undeniably damaged goods, would take a remarkable turnaround should they try again.

With that in mind trading back parts of the FF package selectively now might be the good option for them. They get something they can use with X-Men related stuff now, and each time Marvel get a part of the FF package back. In theory, should they pursue that course, by the time the reversion comes in 5 years the FF might well be down to bare bones, but if Fox have no intention of trying again(and that would be the sanest option imo) they can simply let them revert knowing they did get things useful to them in return.

 

[Random490]

I doubt Fox would trade Doom just for Taskmaster, I think it would be far more likely trade that for someone like Kang the Conqueror.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'd say they are already there tbh. Even with Doom etc what they have with the FF, undeniably damaged goods, would take a remarkable turnaround should they try again.

With that in mind trading back parts of the FF package selectively now might be the good option for them. They get something they can use with X-Men related stuff now, and each time Marvel get a part of the FF package back. In theory, should they pursue that course, by the time the reversion comes in 5 years the FF might well be down to bare bones, but if Fox have no intention of trying again(and that would be the sanest option imo) they can simply let them revert knowing they did get things useful to them in return.

Maybe. It might depend on what Marvel is willing to do.

But if we imagine the rights package as a bag of coins with a total face value of $100 but Marvel isn't willing to pay the $100 because they only want certain coins, Fox might get more by selling the whole bag for $20 than they would by selling the few coins that Marvel really wants at face value.

 

[Snaaaaake!]

If they have to work their way around her most basic origins because of FOX I would rather they not use her. Thats a good question though. I really would like to see her with Doom when he makes his MCU transition.

Yeah I think that's part of the reason why Marvel hasn't introduced Namor yet.

But if Fox does make another dumb move and allow that moron Kinberg to start work on another F4 project. I really think that Disney and Marvel should take the gloves off and handle things similar to what Isaac Perlmutter did but with more tact and more focus.

I honestly think that the Age Of Ultron title was made mostly to spite Fox from being able to use the AOA title in future movies than actually having a creative idea for a cool comicbook crossover story. As a result the movie was kinda sub par and the actual crossover book was forgettable at best. Same with Inhumans which could've been a big substitution for not having access to X-men but the Inhuman comic book stories were boring and AOS's debut of them leaves more to be desired.

With the whole Bill O-reilly thing hurting one of their major properties you'd think that Fox in general would be walking on eggshells but if Fox continues to play hardball with the F4 franchise, Marvel and Disney should take drastic measures starting with making comics that result in successful results this time.

Fox for the most part is following the MCU's coat tails anyway so I suggest making newer (better!) stories that can carry over to film and TV that Fox can't touch. Thus writing them into a wall.

If Marvel can't use Uatu or Kl'rt but do have access to any other Watcher or Skrull then start making new quality characters that can replace them.

I know this is a lot but does that make sense?

 

[Vader's Fist]

Yeah, and this is something I've been thinking about for a long time. One deal the would make a lot of sense would be Fox turning over the FF rights and Marvel agreeing to make some minimum amount (let's say $80 million annual sales as an example) of Fox/X-Men merchandise.

That would not only put money in Fox's pocket, but more importantly it would help Fox in marketing of their films. Toys, T-Shirts etc. aren't just things for people to buy, they're marketing. Every time somebody sees those things, they're thinking about the films and it makes them more interested in seeing the films. Kids who play with X-Men toys just get that much more excited about the next X-Men film.

So Fox would get a big advantage out of that deal and Marvel would get some revenue from merchandise they're not currently selling. The only thing Marvel would give up is a little bit of shelf-space for Marvel merchandise, and there is a limit to how many Iron-Man action figures they can sell anyway.

I think this is the best idea for both parties. As I said in one of my previous posts, buying and investing in the F4 franchise has been an enormous waste of money on Fox's part. Also, it's probably no longer worth the level of money it was when they originally brought it, so it's likely Marvel don't want to fork out the cash to buy it back, probably due to the difficulty that they themselves will have in resurrecting it.

However, with an agreement in place to produce merchandise such as toys for the X-Men films, this will help to bring in a broader movie-going audience, including children, thereby ensuring more money and may also help to breathe new life into the X-Men brand which, let's face it, is in serious need of it. Over a period of time, with the extra flow of cash, Fox not only turn their X-Men franchise around, but are also able to make up for the financial losses made by investing in F4, which has been brought back to popularity at Marvel.

However, it should be noted that this all comes with the assumption that the X-Men will never enter the MCU and, also, that Fox don't make another mess of the franchise as they did with The Last Stand and X-Men origins: Wolverine.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

However, it should be noted that this all comes with the assumption that the X-Men will never enter the MCU and, also, that Fox don't make another mess of the franchise as they did with The Last Stand and X-Men origins: Wolverine.

Exactly. I actually intended to mention that but forgot. I'm presuming Marvel is content to allow Fox continue to do their thing with X-Men. If Marvel wants to get X-Men back, they shouldn't let Fox have any merchandise.

 

[TheVileOne]

Marvel could probably package 4 or 5 solid characters and get the complete FF rights in return. It might seem lopsided, but Fox could get 5 characters to strengthen their X-Men franchise or cling to a bunch of characters they can't use at all.

No. Give them NOTHING. Not a single damn thing.

 

[Zarex]

Okay, we're up to three Marvel television shows operating on FOX owned television stations, and even more millions in ad revenue and streaming fees making their way into the Murdoch family fortune. Does anyone still think that the release of Marvel character rights wasn't part of this deal?

 

[ADollarADay]

Yeah I think that's part of the reason why Marvel hasn't introduced Namor yet.

But if Fox does make another dumb move and allow that moron Kinberg to start work on another F4 project. I really think that Disney and Marvel should take the gloves off and handle things similar to what Isaac Perlmutter did but with more tact and more focus.

I honestly think that the Age Of Ultron title was made mostly to spite Fox from being able to use the AOA title in future movies than actually having a creative idea for a cool comicbook crossover story. As a result the movie was kinda sub par and the actual crossover book was forgettable at best. Same with Inhumans which could've been a big substitution for not having access to X-men but the Inhuman comic book stories were boring and AOS's debut of them leaves more to be desired.

With the whole Bill O-reilly thing hurting one of their major properties you'd think that Fox in general would be walking on eggshells but if Fox continues to play hardball with the F4 franchise, Marvel and Disney should take drastic measures starting with making comics that result in successful results this time.

Fox for the most part is following the MCU's coat tails anyway so I suggest making newer (better!) stories that can carry over to film and TV that Fox can't touch. Thus writing them into a wall.

If Marvel can't use Uatu or Kl'rt but do have access to any other Watcher or Skrull then start making new quality characters that can replace them.

I know this is a lot but does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes sense and I think that's what they are doing with some of their books. The most talented writers and artists are not on XMen and some stories cannot be used by Fox, such as inhumans vs xmen and death of x, unless they are heavily modified.

However, it should be noted that this all comes with the assumption that the X-Men will never enter the MCU and, also, that Fox don't make another mess of the franchise as they did with The Last Stand and X-Men origins: Wolverine.

Huge assumption. And Iger, Feige, probably Quesada and others have said they want to recover all the rights they gave away, XMen included. Some will be harder to recover than others, of course.

Okay, we're up to three Marvel television shows operating on FOX owned television stations, and even more millions in ad revenue and streaming fees making their way into the Murdoch family fortune. Does anyone still think that the release of Marvel character rights wasn't part of this deal?

Raises hand. Marvel is dumb, see the spiderman deal.

I do think Marvel has full rights for animated tv shows, which makes the deadpool tv show even more interesting.

 

[Zarex]

Raises hand. Marvel is dumb, see the spiderman deal.

The Spidey deal which gave Marvel creative control over their most lucrative character and - as with the purchase of Sony's 25% share of the Spider-man LP - made it much more likely that they will gain full ownership of the character in the future? That deal?

And however dumb you think Marvel may be, its the Mouse that's making the call on these deals. And Iger's intellectual property deals have been pretty great.

I do think Marvel has full rights for animated tv shows, which makes the deadpool tv show even more interesting.

Maybe Avi's back in charge and they forgot to tell us?

 

[NealKenneth]

Marvel is dumb, see the spiderman deal.

??? If this was sarcasm, I'm sorry for misunderstanding but Marvel managed to get Spider-Man into Civil War just two years after ASM 2 and now have creative control over 5 movies he's appearing in by 2020. That took some incredible negotiating ability considering Sony Pictures still needs Spider-Man to survive.

 

[ADollarADay]

The Spidey deal which gave Marvel creative control over their most lucrative character and - as with the purchase of Sony's 25% share of the Spider-man LP - made it much more likely that they will gain full ownership of the character in the future? That deal?

And however dumb you think Marvel may be, its the Mouse that's making the call on these deals. And Iger's intellectual property deals have been pretty great.

Yeah, the same deal that was mentioned that after homecoming 2 it's going completely back to Sony. The same deal where Marvel spent a lot of time and energy to make spiderman amazing again to have sony regain full control of the character after 2019 and expand on their horrible spidey verse. That deal. The same deal that still has the mouse paying Sony up to 35MM for every spiderman movie released as per FY 2016 filings. The same deal that was led by Iger and the mouse. That deal.

Maybe Avi's back in charge and they forgot to tell us?

I was being facetious but I do think there's smoke here, I just don't know if it's for the FF. Maybe it's for Wolverine, we know he's the most wanted character the Russo brothers want to use now that they used spiderman. Fox killed him off anyways.

??? If this was sarcasm, I'm sorry for misunderstanding but Marvel managed to get Spider-Man into Civil War just two years after ASM 2 and now have creative control over 5 movies he's appearing in by 2020. That took some incredible negotiating ability considering Sony Pictures still needs Spider-Man to survive.

Precisely why they should have gone for the throat and gotten full control and full rights back. Sony was in desperate need of help. It might still work out for them because I think Sony Pictures and Columbia will end up being sold, but who knows.

 

[Zarex]

Yeah, the same deal that was mentioned that after homecoming 2 it's going completely back to Sony. The same deal where Marvel spent a lot of time and energy to make spiderman amazing again to have sony regain full control of the character after 2019 and expand on their horrible spidey verse. That deal. The same deal that still has the mouse paying Sony up to 35MM for every spiderman movie released as per FY 2016 filings. The same deal that was led by Iger and the mouse. That deal.

Do you think that Sony is going to reboot the series for a fourth time outside the MCU with a new cast of characters in 2019? Because I think there's as much likelihood of that happening as our finally getting a sequel to FFINO.