The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Scene Gwen Stacey Died - Part 2

[Super Jim]

But that's my point.

The featurette shows Gwen telling Peter about Oxford on the market date, which leads directly to Time's Square.

This means that Gwen has not yet gone to Oxford, since she is just now telling Peter about it.

The clothing is identical.

So if the scene where Gwen is just telling Peter about Oxford leads to an electrofied Max yelling about not remembering him and lying to him, then this whole one year thing doesn't make sense.

This is all contingent on my being right that the date scene in the featurette where Gwen is telling Peter about Oxford, where she is wearing the jacket and the blue scarf, matches the date scene in the sizzle where Gwen is asking him about machine guns, where she is wearing the jacket and the blue scarf.

If I am right and these are the same scene, then something is way off. If correct then this whole one year jump doesn't work, unless it is AFTER Time's Square!

 

[sl500jazz]

But that's my point.

The featurette shows Gwen telling Peter about Oxford on the market date, which leads directly to Time's Square.

This means that Gwen has not yet gone to Oxford, since she is just now telling Peter about it.

The clothing is identical.

So if the scene where Gwen is just telling Peter about Oxford leads to an electrofied Max yelling about not remembering him and lying to him, then this whole one year thing doesn't make sense.

This is all contingent on my being right that the date scene in the featurette where Gwen is telling Peter about Oxford, where she is wearing the jacket and the blue scarf, matches the date scene in the sizzle where Gwen is asking him about machine guns, where she is wearing the jacket and the blue scarf.

If I am right and these are the same scene, then something is way off. If correct then this whole one year jump doesn't work, unless it is AFTER Time's Square!

I really don't understand why you think it doesn't make any sense. Several months pass (the film most likely jumps ahead to Max's b-day) after Max is initially saved by Spider-man. Over that time span he grows obsessed and creates an imaginary friendship between them that never existed. Of course Spider-Man wouldn't remember him almost a year later, but in Max's mind he should/would because he is supposed to be Spider-man's "eyes and ears". Spider-man failing to remember him after everyone else forgot his birthday is what pushes him over the edge.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Super Jiim: Gwen doesn't have to go to Oxford immediately after graduation. I also think you might be conflating the Chinatown scene with their date scene at the market, which I think are two separate scenes.

 

[Super Jim]

I really don't understand why you think it doesn't make any sense. Several months pass (the film most likely jumps ahead to Max's b-day) after Max is initially saved by Spider-man. Over that time span he grows obsessed and creates an imaginary friendship between them that never existed. Of course Spider-Man wouldn't remember him almost a year later, but in Max's mind he should/would because he is supposed to be Spider-man's "eyes and ears". Spider-man failing to remember him after everyone else forgot his birthday is what pushes him over the edge.

Ok, here's the concern...

Do you agree that the market date leads directly to the Time's Square scene?

We have proof of this from the sizzle where we see them start the date with the whole machine gun dialogue (meaning it's after the Rhino Mech scene) and then later we see them react to what's happening at Time's Square. They then go directly to Time's Square.

But now, thanks to the featurette, we see Gwen telling Peter about Oxford on this same date. Logically this led to me believing that this scene is in the summer of 2013, since we know she got accepted to Oxford for assumedly, the fall of 2013.

So, let's go through a timeline that might be correct:

June 2013 - Armored car chase scene/Spidey saves Max
June 2013 - Peter and Gwen graduate
June 2013 - Chinatown date/Peter tells Gwen about seeing pops
????????? - Mech Rhino scene (only other traffic jam/machine gun scene)
????????? - Market Date/Gwen tells Peter about Oxford/Max's accident/Time's Square

So simple question is, why would Gwen not have gone to Oxford in the fall, leading to her being there after "several months have passed" and why has she never talked about this with Peter before, until their market date?

Wouldn't it make much more sense for her to tell Peter about Oxford during the summer of 2013?

Did she not get accepted to Oxford, so instead she decided to go to ESU and.or work at Oscorp? And then months later she finally did get accepted to Oxford? Wasn't she already accepted to Oxford during TASM1?

See, this is what doesn't make sense. Why would she wait to tell Peter, the love of her life, about Oxford until several months to a year after graduation?

If they break up at the Chinatown date, which is probably right after graduation, then wouldn't Gwen go to England to start in the fall of 2013? But instead she doesn't go for several months and then gets back together with Peter and then tells him about Oxford? That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever!!!!!

 

[Super Jim]

@Super Jiim: Gwen doesn't have to go to Oxford immediately after graduation. I also think you might be conflating the Chinatown scene with their date scene at the market, which I think are two separate scenes.

I don't think I am. Look at the featurette at time 1:37 and you will see Gwen telling Peter about her scolorship to England. She is wearing the jacket and the blue scarf. The only time we have seen her wearing that scarf is during the market date scene, which leads directly to Time's Square!

 

[sl500jazz]

@Super Jim

First of all, she wasn't accepted to Oxford in TASM1. There's no mention of it. We checked yesterday. Second of all, you're making the assumption that she goes to Oxford directly after graduation (which as of now does not fit the other bits of information that we have).

 

[sl500jazz]

Anyway, stuff happens. There could be a number of reasons as to why she would postpone her education.

 

[Super Jim]

I'm not assuming that she goes to Oxford in June of 2013, right after graduation.

My logical assumption, which most reasonable people would agree with, was that she would have college plans (Oxford) for August/September of 2013, if she was indeed accepted out of High School, which the indication of her being the number one student matches.

If she was going to go to Oxford in August/September then she would have told Peter during the summer of 2013, if not even before that. But instead she doesn't tell him until the market date scene, which most of you are saying happens months, if not a year later.

Wouldn't you think that she would know where she is going to college prior to graduation? Again, she is the valedictorian and that's usually a big thing.

Are you saying that she was NOT accepted to Oxford prior to her graduating high school and then does what, goes to ESU or doesn't go to school and works at Oscorp for a few months? That doesn't make a lot of sense! Maybe I could see it is she didn't get accepted to Oxford, goes to ESU, and then gets accepted for next year. But all of this seems off. Why not just have her going to Oxford in the fall of 2013, if they wanted Peter to have to deal with this issue? Why wait a year?

 

[sl500jazz]

I'm not assuming that she goes to Oxford in June of 2013, right after graduation.

My logical assumption, which most reasonable people would agree with, was that she would have college plans (Oxford) for August/September of 2013, if she was indeed accepted out of High School, which the indication of her being the number one student matches.

If she was going to go to Oxford in August/September then she would have told Peter during the summer of 2013, if not even before that. But instead she doesn't tell him until the market date scene, which most of you are saying happens months, if not a year later.

Wouldn't you think that she would know where she is going to college prior to graduation? Again, she is the valedictorian and that's usually a big thing.

Are you saying that she was NOT accepted to Oxford prior to her graduating high school and then does what, goes to ESU or doesn't go to school and works at Oscorp for a few months? That doesn't make a lot of sense! Maybe I could see it is she didn't get accepted to Oxford, goes to ESU, and then gets accepted for next year. But all of this seems off. Why not just have her going to Oxford in the fall of 2013, if they wanted Peter to have to deal with this issue? Why wait a year?

Again there's nothing about Oxford specifically in TASM1. Those plans were probably developed (or she was offered the scholarship) much later. What are you trying to suggest? That Jamie Foxx lied in his interview? He specifically stated in his interview that a year after Spidey tells Max that he is his "eyes and ears" (during the Aleksei chase) we see Max in his room with posters all over his wall pretending that one of them is actually Spider-man wishing him a happy b-day.

When you connect the dots, the Aleksei chase happens right before graduation, and the clips of Max in his bedroom idolizing Spidey happens before Max's transformation, Peter and Gwen's date at the market, Times Square, etc.

The lapse in time facilitates Max's growing obsession over Spider-man and Harry's return from Europe (among other things).

 

[Super Jim]

^ All I am saying is that logically some of these things don't make a lot of sense. That doesn't mean it won't be in the movie, just that it's not logical. Jamie's comments about the year later is causing me the biggest problems, since logically it doesn't make sense.

For example, logically Harry will come back to New York not too long after high school graduation. If graduation happens in June, especially with what is going on with his father, logically he would be back in late June and likely starting to help run the company.

Logically Gwen applied to college while a Senior (if not before). We know Connors wrote a letter of recommendation that made Captain Stacy cry. So logically it should be known where Gwen, the valedicatorian, is planning on going to college.


Yes, extra time between Spidey saving Max and Max in his house gives extra time for the obsession, but is it really necessary? Probably not. Yes, it helps facilitate his growing obesession, but that same obsession could happen over mere days, weeks or months.

So, let's assume Gwen wasn't planning on going to Oxford right out of high school, but instead to say ESU. And that she was going to continue to work at Oscorp during the summer and after school (good job, why not, right?).

So the logical conclusion is as follows:

- At graduation, Gwen is going to ESU (or somewhere other than Oxford), or maybe taking a semester off (that's unlikely).

- Peter and Gwen have likely been dating, at least a little, since the end of TASM1.

- Peter has been seeing Gwen's pop haunting him "all over the place".

- The Chinatown date happens not too long after graduation. Peter tells her about being haunted by Captain Stacy. Peter likely break things off.

- Gwen decides to apply to Oxford, since she always wanted to go there and being around Peter is problematic now that they are broken up yet again.

- So all of a sudden we're going to jump months or even a year ahead in the movie?

Why???

It's not like Gwen goes to Oxford and then comes back a year later. We know this because she tells him at the market date about Oxford and all of you are saying that date happens a year later. We do know that that date leads directly to Time's Square, and for Jamie's comments about a year going by and Spiderman not remembering his name to be correct, then we're a year ahead since the armored car chase/Max being saved/graduation and Chinatown.

So why the huge jump in time for this movie? Why not just make the majority of this movie during the summer of 2013?

I can only guess that they want to keep the timeline consistent with the GA timeline? I guess that makes sense, to a degree, especially if they are going to have more movies and an expanded universe.

So, what has Peter been doing for the past year? What has Gwen been doing for the past year?

Yes, at some point Peter bumps into Harry and they renew their friendship. This leads to Peter confronting Aunt May and finding his dad's hidden underground railroad, but we know this leads to a conversation with Gwen, so they are back together by then.

Again, this all doesn't make a lot of sense, unless Gwen actually left to go to Oxford, and from the market date dialogue, that didn't happen.

 

[sl500jazz]

^ Lord. This discussion is going in circles and is giving me headache. Imo, Jaimie's comments are basically confirmation that the rumored time jump occurs pre-Electro . I think it makes perfect sense with a lot of the information that we already had about this movie (including the seasonal differences in some of the clips and in the casting calls) and it even works with the dates of the Daily Bugle posts on tumblr. If you don't think it makes any sense, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Anyway, I'm sure the whole Gwen Stacy/college situation will be explained in the film.

 

[Super Jim]

^ Look, I'm not saying it's not what's going to happen. There would really be no reason for Jamie to make this up.

All I am saying is that logically it doesn't make sense in a few areas. So I'm simply asking you the questions that are logical based on these issues.

Also, you even point to "the seasonal differences in some of the clips and in the casting calls", but if all we're doing is jumping from June of 2013 to May or June of 2014, these "seasonal differences" aren't explained. That's what Jamie says, right, we jump a year from when Max is saved to Max in his apartment. Supposedly the script notes had something about a one year jump as well, so if that's the case then we won't have seasonal differences explained. We still have questions of the snow at the cemetary.

You know, I'll just ask you one really easy question:

Why have the movie jump a year from the summer of 2013 to the summer of 2014?????

 

[sl500jazz]

You asked me questions regarding the Gwen Stacy situation. I answered them logically with all of the information that I currently have at my disposal. I told you that Oxford was never established in TASM1, so the scholarship offer will probably come in TASM2 after that year time jump. As for her work/school situation directly after graduation (within that gap of time) : We don't have enough information to definitively answer that one way or another, so it would just amount to speculation/ assumption.

Harry will return only when he is needed by Oscorp and his father. According to the Daily Bugle on Tumblr as of January 2014/December 2013 Harry is still in Europe and the public is still speculating about Norman Osborn's whereabouts. Putting that information aside, all we know is that he returns sometime after high school graduation so that could be a month after Peter graduates or several months after Peter graduates:

Jamie Fox does say that a year passes between Max being saved during the Aleksei chase and Max's b-day, but that does not necessarily mean 12 months exactly. As Picard stated that could be anywhere from 8-10 months, hence 'Spring Season' in the casting calls for extras. As for that one winter cemetery scene, between Summer of 2013 and Spring of 2014 lies winter, correct? This may not be an instantaneous jump in time or the cemetery could be a flashback of sorts.

 

[sl500jazz]

Why have the movie jump a year from the summer of 2013 to the summer of 2014?????

Probably to illustrate Max's growing obsession over Spider-man with the passage of time. To age Peter Parker a little bit. To bring the events of the film into 'real time'. It's impossible to even really answer that question definitively without having seen the movie.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

Probably to illustrate Max's growing obsession over Spider-man with the passage of time. To age Peter Parker a little bit. To bring the events of the film into 'real time'. It's impossible to even really answer that question definitively without having seen the movie.

the new featurette has definitely made things confusing in terms of chronology when paired with jamie's line about one year later being early in the movie.

how common is a year break from study after graduating? it is common here. can you defer a year after high school graduation re. oxford? you can where i am. maybe gwen takes a year off after high school. we could get some dialogue to that effect in the graduation or chinatown scene. gwen wants a year with peter / works at oscorp for one year.

her and max in the elevator is her last day? rhino fight happens the same day? that evening is a date with peter, and she tells him about oxford. then electro happens and the time period between times square and the end of the movie is before her flight to england OR she chooses not to go because of all the electro stuff etc.

who really knows.

 

[DigificWriter]

Several things changed in Gwen's life between TASM1 - when we found out she was top of the class and had had Connors write her a letter of recommendation - and when she tells Pete she's up for a scholarship toOxford:
Her dad was killed
2) She started dating Peter
3) She found out Peter was Spider-Man

It is by no means out of the question that she chose to postpone immediate college attendance due to any one of these factors, if not all 3 of them.It is also not out of the question that she decided to resume her pursuit of a college education a year after graduation.

 

[sl500jazz]

I agree that (when considering all that's happened) Gwen postponing her studies certainly isn't illogical or out of the question, and perhaps Oscorp offered her a full-time position with benefits in the meantime. Peter seems pretty shocked when she tells him so maybe he thought she'd never leave, and it is revealed that she actually postponed/deferred the offer. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

yeah, it's becoming clearer that she simply never leaves new york in tasm2, assuming she dies at the end.

i had wanted the time jump to have gwen go away and for both her and peter to do some soul searching. it would address the broken promise in a good way and show peter has a greater sense of responsibility than at the end of tasm1.

oh well, kurtzman and orci did not go down that road. the time jump appears to simply be a pragmatic thing to keep the movie up to date. they want to show that peter graduates high school, so the time jump allows them to show this not as a flashback and then jump ahead to 2014. establishing max as having chronic, and not acute, spidey-obsession is also a very valid approach. overall, not how i would have utilised a time jump exactly, but i am not being paid to write the film lol.

 

[DigificWriter]

I had fallen victim to false memory syndrome re: TASM1 and Oxford, so OT appears as if Gwen declined whatever offers she received between the end of TASM1 and graduation , and then at some point between graduation and when she tells Pete she's leaving for England, decided to pursue a scholarship at Oxford.

Edit: We also need to take into consideration the news I believe we got months ago about Pete breaking up with Gwen at some point in the film.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

i just realised something. gwen's letter of recommendation came from dr. connors.

dr. connors is the same man who went crazy and turned into a giant lizard. he was then found guilty and is being sent to rikers or ravenscroft.

so, would oxford, or any other college for that matter, REALLY accept gwen based on his word?

i doubt this will be the actual reason for her staying in new york after graduation, but yeah.

 

[FN Spider-man]

man soo many walls of text I don't even @o @

 

[UltimateWebhead]

i just realised something. gwen's letter of recommendation came from dr. connors.

dr. connors is the same man who went crazy and turned into a giant lizard. he was then found guilty and is being sent to rikers or ravenscroft.

so, would oxford, or any other college for that matter, REALLY accept gwen based on his word?

i doubt this will be the actual reason for her staying in new york after graduation, but yeah.

lol. I'm guessing she probably threw that one out and got another recommendation from elsewhere. Besides, she probably has other credits and her high gpa to make her appealing to universities.

 

[Super Jim]

Alright, I think we have a more clear picture of what is going to happen.

First and foremost, Gwen will not go to Oxford. She will get accepted during that jump of a year (or she postponed her acceptance), and it will become a big part of the difficulties in their relationship, but she will likely never make it there.

Some were arguing that she goes away for a year and then comes back, but I think I've proven that to be incorrect...

So, the movie seems like it will go like this:

- Russian mob stuff (introduce Aleskei)
- Armored car chase
- Max gets saved
- Aleskei gets arrested (likely goes to Ravencroft since he's nuts)
- Graduation
- Chinatown date where Peter breaks it off with Gwen since he is being haunted by her dad
- Time jump of numerous months to almost a year (not sure I'm a fan of this)
- Harry will come back (why didn't he come back earlier?)
- Peter and Harry resume their friendship
- Peter confronts Aunt May about his dad
- We'll be shown the plane crash
- Peter will find his father's underground railroad lab
- Peter will seek out Gwen (an additional link to Oscorp) for help. This will bring them back together.
- Aleskei escapes
- Rhino battle
- Max's accident
- Market Date where Gwen tells Peter about Oxford
- Time's Square
- We can change the world (Is this when Harry will be shown "the future"?)(Do we meet/learn who the Man in the Shadows is?)
- Max ends up with Harry (at Oscorp, or at Ravencroft?) getting amped up. Who's the "Doc" helping to do this (Smythe?, Menken?, Otto?)
- Max goes rogue
- Harry undergoes the Goblin process
- The Power Plant Electro finale battle
- Goblin kidnaps Gwen
- The Clock Tower battle
- Gwen dies

So the questions still plagueing are:

Does Electro get captured at Time's Square and/or does he ever go to Ravencroft? Or will we only see Ravencroft with Aleskei?

Where does Aleskei get his Russian Mech Rhino?

Was the power cell he was trying to steal needed to power the mech?

If he is captured, where does he get a new power cell, or does the mech get powered through some other means?

When is the cemetary scene and what's the purpose? Assuming it's between December and February (snow) then it has to happen either during the time jump between the Chinatown date and the Market date/Time's Square or months after Gwen's death, or it's a flashback (clothing suggest it's not a flashback).

Why do it in the winter (other than the snow looks good on camera)?

Is he talking with Uncle Ben, his parents, Captain Stacy, or is this at the end of the movie, six months after Gwen is dead, with him talking to Gwen?

Would they have him talk with Gwen 6 months after her death to show the GA that he's dealing with her death and that he's starting to move on?

I guess I now realize that they want to keep these movies along the same timeline as the general audience. So this movie will span from the summer of 2013 (June) to almost a year later, likely "May" of 2014, so it's current. That also means that the next movie will likely span from the summer of 2014 until almost the summer of 2016. So each movie jumps almost 2 years. I can see the positives of doing this, and being able to keep things current, but I can also see a lot being lost in translation. How are they going to show Peter dealing with the death of Gwen when the next movie will somehow jump a year (unless they use the cemetary scene as I wrote above)?

Also, if Harry-Goblin gets away (using Gwen's fall as a means of escape) then wouldn't Peter spend his energy on tracking down Harry and getting revenge? Jumping to a year or two later hurts that storyline.

Would they expect us to believe that Peter didn't try to go after Gwen's killer?

I guess Webb must feel that the positives of being able to use current events and current advertising, etc, is worth what might be lost in the story.

Do we all now feel confidence that Mech Rhino is not at the end of the movie, as others have helped prove, and that it is likely the scene that leads to Peter being all dirty and under the covers in the scene with Aunt May?

Am I missing anything?

 

[Super Jim]

In my Harry Amps up Electro thread I think I just proved that it's definitely at Ravencroft where Electro gets amped up. That must mean that Spiderman takes Electro down at Times Square, which send him to Ravencroft, and it's Dr. Kafka (who is "Doc") and Harry that amp him up.

 

[sl500jazz]

Spoiler

Same cog?