The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread

[Godzilla2014]

I'm not really understanding your point. Are you just saying you want Batman to only use the foldable batarangs? There is no difference in them, other than one is a foldable version. The "larger" version batarangs really aren't that much bigger.

No. I was asking if they had been used. The reason being that if we need a batarang for disarming, the large ones might be a better choice than the small version to do it with their greater mass.

 

[Travesty]

No. I was asking if they had been used. The reason being that if we need a batarang for disarming, the large ones might be a better choice than the small version to do it with their greater mass.

I'm not sure.

Speaking of you being against Batman sticking people with Batarangs, how did you feel about him sticking Joker in the face with retractable blades in his gauntlets?

 

[D.P.]

He's the f***ing Batman. Stop trying to rationalize everything.

 

[Doc Samson]

BB uses a lot of dialogue to explore the idea that Batman's costume and persona are designed to intimidate criminals. The theme of "fear" allowed for a sort of contest of intimidation between Batman and The Scarecrow, with both using it for different ends.

But the theme isn't delivered very well visually, and it is almost forgotten in TDK. BB shows us that criminals do find Batman's appearance intimidating- the docks sequence is the best example. But we are rarely shown what exactly they are reacting to. Carmine Falcone takes fright because he sees a troop of his muscle being soundly thrashed- but we don't really see the full picture. Sal Maroni is unimpressed by Batman, even dangling off a rooftop. In neither case are we really shown Batman looking scary while he goes about his business of terrifying ne'er do wells. This seems to run against the careful planning and design that Bruce and Alfred are shown to invest in making the batsuit look frightening.

Batman should swoop from the shadows, using his cape to blur his shape. He should throw a batch of smoke bombs before him, so that he hits the ground in a thick unearthly mist. He should have floored two out of eight goons with batarangs by the time he breaks the third's ribs. Then they would be running.

It seems strange to use the term, but that seems a more realistic concept than Batman simply being a superhuman martial artist who can defeat absolutely any odds by engaging them toe-to-toe on an equal footing.

This presents a two-tier problem however.

First, the action sequences were roundly criticized by critics & fans alike in BB, and while Nolan may not be so adept at showing hand to hand combat, a lot of his decisions during those fight scenes stemmed from giving the illusion of Batman from the eyes of the criminals. Barely seeing him, attacking from all angles, it makes for a very schizophrenic experience, and most people didn't want that.

Second, I also think it was a natural progression in TDK for Batman to seem less elemental and more ordinary, in terms of law enforcement & the underworld. The whole crux of Maroni's indifference towards Batman relates to the impact of the Joker. Maroni clearly knows by this point that Batman does, indeed, have limits and rules. Because of that, all of his theatrics should have less of an effect, especially once they witness someone in the Joker who absolutely has no rules.

I think with Batman being charged with murder, there's an opportunity in TDKR to reestablish that presence of fear, because now everyone outside of Gordon isn't sure what he might do.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I'm not sure.

Speaking of you being against Batman sticking people with Batarangs, how did you feel about him sticking Joker in the face with retractable blades in his gauntlets?

No. Why? Because it was a defensive move that was the best option for Batman. He had to get Joker to drop the detonator, and it was faster than pulling a gadget off the belt, and it distracted him enough for Batman to throw him off and catch him with the grapple. If this sounds hypocritical, I guess it might just be that I was a bit squeamish as a kid when I first saw the Batarangs sticking people.

 

[regwec]

I think with Batman being charged with murder, there's an opportunity in TDKR to reestablish that presence of fear, because now everyone outside of Gordon isn't sure what he might do.

A good point, and I really hope you are right.

 

[Travesty]

No. Why? Because it was a defensive move that was the best option for Batman. He had to get Joker to drop the detonator, and it was faster than pulling a gadget off the belt, and it distracted him enough for Batman to throw him off and catch him with the grapple. If this sounds hypocritical, I guess it might just be that I was a bit squeamish as a kid when I first saw the Batarangs sticking people.

It doesn't just sound, it is.......

 

[Doc Samson]

A good point, and I really hope you are right.

Indeed. I will concede however, that TDK had way too many scenes with Batman just walking around or being somewhat...vanilla.

In BB, he was always crouching on something, or wrapped in his cape, just more iconic shots overall. Which is why in my estimation it is still the best depiction of Batman yet, while TDK may be the better constructed film. I hope all this talk of Nolan "bringing it back" to BB has more to do with Batman himself rather than plot points

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Yeah, I totally get what Nolan was going for in TDK and I loved it. It's difficult when you only have three movies to present a whole vision of a character who's been around 70 years.

It's the same reason why I wasn't bugged by the lack of Batcave, etc. Nolan basically had to truncate 70 years of history into a couple of films - in Begins we got the origins and the supernatural wraith version of Batman, in TDK it progressed to the kind of workman, utilitarian Batman who is a known quantity in Gotham, and in TDKR we'll probably see something else.

The fluctuations in fan interest say more about our individual preferences ("that's MY Batman!") than anything else.

 

[Godzilla2014]

It doesn't just sound, it is.......

Like I said, my disdain for the idea may come from the fact that when I saw that in the comics, I was a squeamish kid. It doesn't really solve any of the problems of batarangs knocking the gun out of the bad guy's hand, like the accuracy required to hit a moving hand. I am changing my opinion, (because it doesn't make sense with the other things a darker Batman will do to his opponents), but that may be why.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The point is Batman should be doing it. It has nothing to do with opinion, if Bizarro were to use his heat breTh on someone in the next Superman movie would you just scream out loud because you are squeamish? In TDK Joker stabbed a guy through the eye with a pencil Harvey Dent had his face burnt to the extent portions of his skull were visible and Joker was repeatedly stabbed in the face by Batman. Seeing people with a sore hands not that bad compared to the past crimes in these films.

 

[Godzilla2014]

The point is Batman should be doing it. It has nothing to do with opinion, if Bizarro were to use his heat breTh on someone in the next Superman movie would you just scream out loud because you are squeamish? In TDK Joker stabbed a guy through the eye with a pencil Harvey Dent had his face burnt to the extent portions of his skull were visible and Joker was repeatedly stabbed in the face by Batman. Seeing people with a sore hands not that bad compared to the past crimes in these films.

I said when I was a kid. I'm not squeamish anymore, hence my opinion maybe changing.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Well kids wh are already familiar with the films have already seen much worse.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Well kids wh are already familiar with the films have already seen much worse.

And on second thought, I wouldn't take offense.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah, I totally get what Nolan was going for in TDK and I loved it. It's difficult when you only have three movies to present a whole vision of a character who's been around 70 years.

It's the same reason why I wasn't bugged by the lack of Batcave, etc. Nolan basically had to truncate 70 years of history into a couple of films - in Begins we got the origins and the supernatural wraith version of Batman, in TDK it progressed to the kind of workman, utilitarian Batman who is a known quantity in Gotham, and in TDKR we'll probably see something else.

The fluctuations in fan interest say more about our individual preferences ("that's MY Batman!") than anything else.

As regwec pointed out, Nolan even went contraband to his own Batman. He spent half of Begins explaining and demonstrating that Batman is all about fear and then in TDK he completely forgot about it. Clearly Bruce Wayne must be ******ed if all the preparation and thought he put into his theatricality became laughable by criminals after a while.

And before someone says "but in real life they would figure him out", well this isnt real life is it? After all the lectures in BB, i'd like Batman to remain a fearful entity even if people are scared of the Joker more. It doesnt matter if they know he's a man, his theatrics and appearence are supposed to be scary and work in his benefit. You dont have to ridicule Batman to show how cool the Joker is.

No. I was asking if they had been used. The reason being that if we need a batarang for disarming, the large ones might be a better choice than the small version to do it with their greater mass.

1) will you be able to distinguish the two batarangs when Batman just throws them at the enemy?
2) Would you want to?
3) Why would you want to? Are you this pedantic?
4) Would you like Nolan to use slow motion so that you'd be able to see the batarangs clearly?
5) Do you also want to see Bruce Wayne use the bathroom? We havent seen him go so far and i have to assume that his g.i track is magical.

Jesus Christ man.

 

[Godzilla2014]

As regwec pointed out, Nolan even went contraband to his own Batman. He spent half of Begins explaining and demonstrating that Batman is all about fear and then in TDK he completely forgot about it. Clearly Bruce Wayne must be ******ed if all the preparation and thought he put into his theatricality became laughable by criminals after a while.

And before someone says "but in real life they would figure him out", well this isnt real life is it? After all the lectures in BB, i'd like Batman to remain a fearful entity even if people are scared of the Joker more. It doesnt matter if they know he's a man, his theatrics and appearence are supposed to be scary and work in his benefit. You dont have to ridicule Batman to show how cool the Joker is.

This isn't real life, but Christopher Nolan wants to show us what Batman and elements of his world would be like in ours. If you aren't interested in that concept, then these films don't appeal to you, and there's not much to be done about that. I, however, am interested in that idea.

1) will you be able to distinguish the two batarangs when Batman just throws them at the enemy?
2) Would you want to?
3) Why would you want to? Are you this pedantic?
4) Would you like Nolan to use slow motion so that you'd be able to see the batarangs clearly?
5) Do you also want to see Bruce Wayne use the bathroom? We havent seen him go so far and i have to assume that his g.i track is magical.

Jesus Christ man.

1. If they had different effects on target you could.
2. Do you mean like would I care?
3. I can't notice such things? You brought up and pushed not wanting the grapnel to look like a gun, and I didn't call you pedantic.
4. **** no. Where the hell did you get that idea from?
5. I don't understand this comparision of the effects of batarangs on the target to taking a ****.

 

[Mr. Earle]

This isn't real life, but Christopher Nolan wants to show us what Batman and elements of his world would be like in ours. If you aren't interested in that concept, then these films don't appeal to you, and there's not much to be done about that. I, however, am interested in that idea.

It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with Nolan having one of the smartest people on earth waste time and tons of money to become a bat and scare criminals, only for it to fail miserably after a couple of months. In real life it would fail yeah, but in real life a roof wouldnt be able to support a tank jumping on it.

So either Bruce Wayne is stupid and needs to drop his theatrics, or it should be something that is supposed to work, justifying everything we saw in Begins. To put it simply: Nolan is breaking the rules of his own universe.

 

[Godzilla2014]

It has nothing to do with me. It has to do with Nolan having one of the smartest people on earth waste time and tons of money to become a bat and scare criminals, only for it to fail miserably after a couple of months. In real life it would fail yeah, but in real life a roof wouldnt be able to support a tank jumping on it.

So either Bruce Wayne is stupid and needs to drop his theatrics, or it should be something that is supposed to work, justifying everything we saw in Begins. To put it simply: Nolan is breaking the rules of his own universe.

The idea is that criminals are starting to figure out Batman's rule and his limits. Batman's limitations are a major driving force in the film. I think you missed the point of THE DARK KNIGHT.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Nolan's not breaking any rules. The initial fear and threatening nature that people perceived of Batman in Begins just became less diluted in Knight which is normal and natural when people found out he's just some nut in a costume.

That was bound to happen at some point, but he still should be able to cause fear not only because of his supposedly scary costume, but because of what he's capable of.

 

[Godzilla2014]

That was bound to happen at some point, but he still should be able to cause fear not only because of his supposedly scary costume, but because of what he's capable of.

They generally only became less scared of him after the Joker came after them. They realized that Batman wouldn't kill them versus the Joker who would and laugh gleefully.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah but they shouldnt be any less scared of him, just scared of the Joker more. Nolan didnt have to strip batman of his best aspect so that the Joker would appear as more powerful. Maroni could have been scared of both, but instead he was like "**** you bats, joker is badass. ROFL."

I get that Nolan wanted to show Batman frustrated and not knowing how to deal with him, but i think he went too far.

 

[craigdbfan]

Batman still instills a **** load of fear. The higher up criminals know him better in that he won't kill them but they still don't like getting their legs broken or knocked out temporarily by getting a top of a van knocked on them.

When the drug deals go bad in the very beginning of TDK that shows that even petty criminals are still really afraid to do a quick drug deal because of the bat signa. So obviously he's still doing something right.

The Joker I guess showed a total disregard in fear especially when Batman has nothing to threaten him in the interrogation scene thats where Batman looked his weakest to me. He was made a complete joke. Probably the Jokers intention.

DEALER
No, man. I don't like this night.
BUYER
What'reyou, superstitious? You got
more chance of winning the powerball
than running into him...

But I agree that overall Bats needs a more intimidating costume for TDKR.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Yeah but they shouldnt be any less scared of him, just scared of the Joker more. Nolan didnt have to strip batman of his best aspect so that the Joker would appear as more powerful. Maroni could have been scared of both, but instead he was like "**** you bats, joker is badass. ROFL."

I get that Nolan wanted to show Batman frustrated and not knowing how to deal with him, but i think he went too far.

If they turned on the Joker, he was going to kill them, Batman wouldn't. Guess what they chose.

Batman still instills a **** load of fear. The higher up criminals know him better in that he won't kill them but they still don't like getting their legs broken or knocked out temporarily by getting a top of a van knocked on them.

When the drug deals go bad in the very beginning of TDK that shows that even petty criminals are still really afraid to do a quick drug deal because of the bat signa. So obviously he's still doing something right.

The Joker I guess showed a total disregard in fear especially when Batman has nothing to threaten him in the interrogation scene thats where Batman looked his weakest to me. He was made a complete joke. Probably the Jokers intention.

DEALER
No, man. I don't like this night.
BUYER
What'reyou, superstitious? You got
more chance of winning the powerball
than running into him...

I agree.

 

[Doc Samson]

Batman still instills a **** load of fear. The higher up criminals know him better in that he won't kill them but they still don't like getting their legs broken or knocked out temporarily by getting a top of a van knocked on them.

When the drug deals go bad in the very beginning of TDK that shows that even petty criminals are still really afraid to do a quick drug deal because of the bat signa. So obviously he's still doing something right.

The Joker I guess showed a total disregard in fear especially when Batman has nothing to threaten him in the interrogation scene thats where Batman looked his weakest to me. He was made a complete joke. Probably the Jokers intention.

DEALER
No, man. I don't like this night.
BUYER
What'reyou, superstitious? You got
more chance of winning the powerball
than running into him...

But I agree that overall Bats needs a more intimidating costume for TDKR.

Agreed. Also, like I said before, it's one thing when this individual first pops up in this garish outfit, of course that's frightening. But the smarter criminals, the bosses like Maroni, caught on to the fact that Batman really isn't going to kill you.

It's just a natural progression of the story that they would start to stand up to him, especially in light of a true psycho. And let's be clear, the only one who wasn't really afraid of him face to face was Maroni & the Joker, the common thugs, like craigdbfan pointed out, were still plenty spooked. Now that Batman has the reputation of a killer though, it will be interesting to see how Gotham reacts to him

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I think everyone in the last two films know that Batman isn't some 'creature of the night', that he is in fact a 'nut in a costume'. They've explicitly clarified that in BB more than once.

No, the true 'fear' is the fact that he is a man who is willing to go to certain limits, who places himself above normalcy, above the law, and ultimately above your (as in the criminal's) bloody sense of disrespect for morality.

The suit this time could represent a wraith or a shadow instead of a bulking monster or a knight-in-arms. I'm sure fans will love to see a Batman who clings to the darkness a lot more than he has before. Maybe this new suit could fit well with his need to avoid the police. The technology associated with the suit (which as seen in TDK has made the link to Wayne Tech too obvious, perhaps prompting Fox or Wayne to disguise it a little, to fit more with the theme of the bat) will be hidden and used to maximise on both theatricality and function. This way the actual bat-suit becomes concerned with stealth rather than either of the above. And maybe it's this stealth that Bane exploits.

Since this is going to be the last Nolan film, I'd love to see all three suits showcased at some point. Maybe he wears the first when going on to fight Bane a second time, the TDK suit early on in the film, and the stealth suit throughout the rest? Okay it seems shaky, but what I'm trying to convey is a) the fact that Bruce wore multiple bat-suits to fit the situation, and b) that there is room for more than one Bat-suit in his arsenal.

In TDK the focus on 'functionality' and the immediacy of the situation made it so that Bruce couldn't alter it to fit his aesthetic needs. By this I don't mean his 'personal taste', but rather expanding upon the bat-symbolism/theme. With a while having passed since the events of TDK Bruce could alter the TDK suit's functionality to better reflect his original need of an intimidating, monstrous, wraith.

The suit is at the same time a tool, a weapon, and an identity all put together. The design should do well to establish that.