The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 138

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[Doctor Who]

Agreed.

Damn...nice work KJ.

t: t: t:

 

[Doctor Who]

Let's open with this again; like I said, bored and up all night on photoshop :

I find it superbly fascinating how Batman's story unfolds to religious meaning and uncanny similarities.

 

[Goku Goes Crazy]

How did the inmates in the prison here Bane's voice during the speech? He was outside and he wasn't using a microphone. Was his voice being played over the loud speakers?

 

[bosef982]

And that's where your argument falls apart.

Like I said on the previous page, plunging the world into a dark age would have been a decent agenda for the villains.

However, there's nothing stated by Bane or Talia about changing the world or global repercussions in the film.

The only aspect highlighted by both of them, regarding their plan, is revenge. That's where these 'villains' fall incredibly short.

They aren't trying to prove anything to the world, or transform the world. They just want to destroy Gotham and the only reason given why is Talia stating she wanted to complete her father's work, completely out of context.

It has nothing to do with me as a viewer. It has everything to do with the shortcomings of the film's script. It was a lazy and uninspired script compared to Nolan's usual work. There were multiple gaps in logic and this was one of them.

I'm a Chris Nolan fan and I loved BB and TDK, but I'm not blindly being an apologist for the disappointing shortcomings of this film.

Really? There's nothing and anyone who says differently is a blind apologist?


How about Bane's words: "Take them upstairs. People of their status deserve to watch the ushering of the next stage in Western Civilization."

"We will fullfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny."

"Fullfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny."

"Balance will be restored."

"Fullfilll my father's destiny...."

We have Ra's making an appearance in Bruce's cell to talk about decadence, how the world must be cleansed. Qoute: An heir to ensure the League of Shadows fulfills its duty to restore balance to civilization.

Pretty sure, anyone who can put two and two together, can get that they wanted to plunge the world into a new age, and its perfectly reasoanble that you expect your audience to be familiar with the prior films before seeing hte TRILOGY CLOSER!.

*Sigh*

Why do I even bother trying to explain things to individuals who clearly are unwilling to understand clear logic? Or maybe they are unable, at which point I just feel pity that some people here just lack the mental facilities to see fact and fact and say -- "Well then I don't like their approach." That line, I total respect. YOU DONT LIKE IT -- doesn't mean the majority of critics or the world need to fall in line with you. The film did not let you down. It simply didn't cater to your tastes and expectations. Own them, don't try to pawn them off on the film

I feel like those who dislike this movie have forgotten that they are in a VERY VERY VERY small minority whose desperation makes their complaints and voices seem larger than they actually are.

 

[dark_b]

How did the inmates in the prison here Bane's voice during the speech? He was outside and he wasn't using a microphone. Was his voice being played over the loud speakers?

based on the prison reactions and selina it looked like they all watched tv's on the wall. it looks like some guard connected the tv to the speakers. hehe its just movie magic

 

[bosef982]

How did the inmates in the prison here Bane's voice during the speech? He was outside and he wasn't using a microphone. Was his voice being played over the loud speakers?

How did Loki know the Avengers formed?

How did Bruce Banner know exactly where to ride up to find the Avengers?

How did Bruce know exactly where to find Harvey Dent and stop him from killing Schiff?

How did Magneto know where to stand at the right time to perfectly stop the X-Men's blackbird from crashing in X2?

How did Sabertooth and Magneto know Rogue was at the train station in X1?

How did Doctor Octopus know where to find Peter Parker and Mary Jane when he attacks them in SM2? And how did no one notice him creeping up?

How did Luthor conveniently divine that Kryptonite hurts Superman in Superman (79)?

Do I really need to go on here?

 

[dark_b]

remember the news that the ending will be 100% CGI? did they meant when the bat is flying with the bomb ?

 

[Mike_D202]

How did the inmates in the prison here Bane's voice during the speech? He was outside and he wasn't using a microphone. Was his voice being played over the loud speakers?

I don't think some people noticed the small crowd of people in front of Bane was part of a news crew and he was being broadcast on live tv.

 

[CJ]

Just realized something earlier:

Batman Begins
Ras Al Ghul: "When a forest grows too wild a cleansing fire is inevitable and nautral."

The Dark Knight Rises
Henchman: "So we started a fire?"
Bane: "The fire rises!"

..So, was that Bane's way of saying the steps towards Gotham's destruction have now begun?

Because if not, I have no idea what that line means, other than Nolan just thought it sounded cool.

Apologies if someone else already pointed this out.

 

[pixiesvision]

How did Loki know the Avengers formed?

How did Bruce Banner know exactly where to ride up to find the Avengers?

How did Bruce know exactly where to find Harvey Dent and stop him from killing Schiff?

How did Magneto know where to stand at the right time to perfectly stop the X-Men's blackbird from crashing in X2?

How did Sabertooth and Magneto know Rogue was at the train station in X1?

How did Doctor Octopus know where to find Peter Parker and Mary Jane when he attacks them in SM2? And how did no one notice him creeping up?

How did Luthor conveniently divine that Kryptonite hurts Superman in Superman (79)?

Do I really need to go on here?

This. SO much.

 

[Norek]

Do I really need to go on here?

No, you don't. It is fun to nitpick only if it's TDKR-related.

 

[mbnasir6]

Just realized something earlier:

Batman Begins
Ras Al Ghul: "When a forest grows too wild a cleansing fire is inevitable and nautral."

The Dark Knight Rises
Henchman: "So we started a fire?"
Bane: "The fire rises!"

..So, was that Bane's way of saying the steps towards Gotham's destruction have now begun?

Because if not, I have no idea what that line means, other than Nolan just thought it sounded cool.

Apologies if someone else already pointed this out.

Well then there's also Alfreds story of burning down the forest in TDK.

 

[BlackFox]

No, you don't. It is fun to nitpick only if it's TDKR-related.

Its seems to be in vogue at the moment, was always going to be that way though to be fair after TDK, it was going to get closer inspection just due to the success of that film before it, rightly or wrongly.

Some of these threads seem to be a little redundant now, just going round in circles over and over things which have been said several times but not going to change anything now (Talia's death scene/Blake/Bane's reason for doing anything!)

 

[Lionbush]

Had a read of those comments that think the story is about simple vengance, so I registered to add to the argument as to why it isn't at all. There was a line in it spoken by Talia right at the end, I couldn't remember it word for word so I bought the script so I could put it in accurately:

'Innocent' is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience...

That line makes it quite clear about her objectives. She wanted to destroy Gotham to finish off the job that was started in BB. The fact that she got to kill Batman is just the cherry on top of the cake for her. But it's pretty clear what the whole objective was about, and it was as far from vengeance as you can get.

 

[BlackFox]

Had a read of those comments that think the story is about simple vengance, so I registered to add to the argument as to why it isn't at all. There was a line in it spoken by Talia right at the end, I couldn't remember it word for word so I bought the script so I could put it in accurately:

'Innocent' is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience...

That line makes it quite clear about her objectives. She wanted to destroy Gotham to finish off the job that was started in BB. The fact that she got to kill Batman is just the cherry on top of the cake for her. But it's pretty clear what the whole objective was about, and it was as far from vengeance as you can get.

Good point well made.

Not sure why some people struggle with the concept of the villains motives in the TDKR quite so much as they do in Begins and TDK.

 

[dark_b]

'Innocent' is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce. I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience...

That line makes it quite clear about her objectives. She wanted to destroy Gotham to finish off the job that was started in BB. The fact that she got to kill Batman is just the cherry on top of the cake for her. But it's pretty clear what the whole objective was about, and it was as far from vengeance as you can get.

so why did Talia belive in her fathers plan? do we find out? or is her character just the daughter of Ra's who wants to finish his plan even..............when Gotham is now a different city.

 

[Lionbush]

Good point well made.

Not sure why some people struggle with the concept of the villains motives in the TDKR quite so much as they do in Begins and TDK.

Not sure either, it's not that complicated.

Spoiler

Bane loved and protected Talia, he took the hit so she could escape. She was taken in by her father who went to rescue her protector. They both got trained. Bane got banished to which Talia got upset. Ra's then trained Bruce, Bruce went his own way and became Batman, eventually killling Ra's. Talia took on the false identity of Miranda Tate to create the fusion reactor. In the background she was still controlling the league of shadows with Bane 'in charge'. She set up the bankrupcy of Bruce in order to foce his hand in getting her on the WE board and to get access to the now hidden fusion reactor. From then on she could carry out her plan, but no one would ever suspect it was her who was planning to destroy the city. As a bonus she also got to kill Batman. It was a bonus because up until the final day she would have believed that he was in the pit still watching it all unfold. He was never meant to be there to be killed.

 

[Lionbush]

so why did Talia belive in her fathers plan? do we find out? or is her character just the daughter of Ra's who wants to finish his plan even..............when Gotham is now a different city.

Gotham to her wasn't a different city. The 'innocent' line clearly implies this. She believed in her fathers plan beccause she was his daughter and a member of the LOS. Just because she is upset at his treatment of Bane, doesn't mean that she didn't still believe in what he stood for. The ghost of Ra's explained that to Bruce in the cell.

As his daugher she felt it her duty to complete the work. She was also prepared to die carrying out the plan since she was the one holding the trigger and there was no obvious escape plan in place for her.

 

[BlackFox]

Not sure either, it's not that complicated.

Spoiler

Bane loved and protected Talia, he took the hit so she could escape. She was taken in by her father who went to rescue her protector. They both got trained. Bane got banished to which Talia got upset. Ra's then trained Bruce, Bruce went his own way and became Batman, eventually killling Ra's. Talia took on the false identity of Miranda Tate to create the fusion reactor. In the background she was still controlling the league of shadows with Bane 'in charge'. She set up the bankrupcy of Bruce in order to foce his hand in getting her on the WE board and to get access to the now hidden fusion reactor. From then on she could carry out her plan, but no one would ever suspect it was her who was planning to destroy the city. As a bonus she also got to kill Batman. It was a bonus because up until the final day she would have believed that he was in the pit still watching it all unfold. He was never meant to be there to be killed.

Pretty much in a nutshell, maybe seeing it three times has helped me thought:

 

[craigdbfan]

so why did Talia belive in her fathers plan? do we find out? or is her character just the daughter of Ra's who wants to finish his plan even..............when Gotham is now a different city.

Different city? It's still exactly the same when it comes to the rich and poor.

Sure a good deal of criminal activity has been reduced but that doesn't mean that there isn't still a huge disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor. Didn't you catch the remark the little orphan kid made? "Apparently there are more jobs down there than up here". Look at Selina who is a professional cat burglar but is still unable to have anything but a rundown studio in the skirts of the city with her little thief friend. That shows just how unbalanced things have become and how the worth of the dollar is down in the gutters. This movie isn't only trying to show that Gotham is in the same rut but that much of the "free" world isn't to far off. They're using Gotham as an example as it's the most prominent city in the world in that universe.

I'm sure San Francisco, New York, Chicago all look perfectly fine if you look at it superficially but it's festering and plagued by poverty nonetheless. Gotham is in a similar situation.

The League of Shadows doesn't think any part of humanity should have that kind of economic inequality and have the right to call themselves a just civilization.

 

[BlackFox]

Different city? It's still exactly the same when it comes to the rich and poor.

Sure a good deal of criminal activity has been reduced but that doesn't mean that there isn't still a huge disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor. Didn't you catch the remark the little orphan kid made? "Apparently there are more jobs down there than up here". Look at Selina who is a professional cat burglar but is still unable to have anything but a rundown studio in the skirts of the city with her little thief friend. That shows just how unbalanced things have become and how the worth of the dollar is down in the gutters. This movie isn't only trying to show that Gotham is in the same rut but that much of the "free" world isn't to far off. They're using Gotham as an example as it's the most prominent city in the world in that universe.

I'm sure San Francisco, New York, Chicago all look perfectly fine if you look at it superficially but it's festering and plagued by poverty nonetheless. Gotham is in a similar situation.

The League of Shadows doesn't think any part of humanity should have that kind of economic inequality and have the right to call themselves a just civilization.

League of Shadows, a communist allegory if you’ve ever seen one, in which everyone is interchangeable with everyone else

 

[Lionbush]

Different city? It's still exactly the same when it comes to the rich and poor.

Sure a good deal of criminal activity has been reduced but that doesn't mean that there isn't still a huge disparity gap between the wealthy and the poor. Didn't you catch the remark the little orphan kid made? "Apparently there are more jobs down there than up here". Look at Selina who is a professional cat burglar but is still unable to have anything but a rundown studio in the skirts of the city with her little thief friend.

I'm sure San Francisco, New York, Chicago all look perfectly fine if you look at it superficially but it's festering and plagued by poverty nonetheless. Gotham is in a similar situation.

The League of Shadows doesn't think any part of humanity should have that kind of economic inequality and have the right to call themselves a just civilization.

Very true.

Gotham had little crime as such but the deprevation still existed in the city. The rich were still rich and the poor were poor. Selina explained this during the ball when she said about 'leaving so little for the rest of us'. Just because there was no crime as such doesn't mean that Gotham was a perfect city.

 

[craigdbfan]

League of Shadows, a communist allegory if you’ve ever seen one, in which everyone is interchangeable with everyone else

Not even close. I'd recommend looking up what communism is because they don't fit that description.

The closest thing to communism in this movie is the ruse of an ideal that Bane feeds to the people of Gotham about "taking control of their city" when he only intends on making it a desolate nuclear wasteland. Nothing about that part of the speech is genuine from Bane. That's the false hope he told Bruce he would be instilling within the people of Gotham. This movie makes sure to critique all current forms of government/groups.

The LoS finds all forms of government inefficient and thinks the only way to make people understands is through dramatic examples.