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The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 138

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Gordan said everyone. On duty, off duty, everyone. Then later when Blake warns Foley of the explosives and the trap Foley exclaims that the cities entire police force is down in the tunnels.

I'm sure Gordon says "Every available" in the hosptial and that Foley says "Get every off duty and beat cop here" when they are chasing Batman.

Even still it sounds more dramatic to say the entire police force than "Blake there's quite a few cops down there".
 
Gordan said everyone. On duty, off duty, everyone. Then later when Blake warns Foley of the explosives and the trap Foley exclaims that the cities entire police force is down in the tunnels.

I don't recall Gordon ever saying off duty. The line was, "No more hide and seek, get every available cop down there and smoke him out!"

Foley's line could easily be construed as a bit of hyperbole. Terrible delivery by Modine on that line btw, haha.
 
• Tony Stark constructing an arc reactor and suit of armor... in a cave

Yes, a man who is shown to be able to do this with tech. This isn't stupidity...it requires a suspension of disbelief in Tony Stark's abilities. It's like, the core conceit of the film, that you believe that he's that smart.

• The Joker falling in a tank of chemical waste, and shortly after sporting premawhite skin.

Verious chemicals affect people's bodies in different ways. Some of them can stain the skin. Its a longshot, but it's not stupid so much as it requires a suspension of disbelief.

• Harvey Dent + third degree burns on half of his face.

Again. There's nothing inherently stupid about this concept. Its disturbing more than anything. Again, it requires a suspension of disbelief in scientific terms.

• The Hulk's shorts never tearing during his transformation.

They stretch.

Shall I keep going?

No, because you're confusing "suspension of disbelief" moments, which ALL films have, in some cases, comparing elements of films that are SUPPOSED to be a little bit cheesy, with characters doing dumb, dumb, dumb things just to create a melodramatic plot point in a film that is supposed to be "grounded".

A very high majority of cops (say 95% or so) are down in the tunnels. It is just idiotic to think that every single cop is down there. What about injured cops? Ill ones?

A lot yeah but not every single cop.

Fine...all...most of them...a lot of them. Look at that...it's still so, so stupid.

It is hardly a murder spree or mass kidnapping. About 3 people were killed and 5 kidnapped. The commissioner knew nothing about a plot only that something was building underground. I know it is bad but it hardly the worst crime in humanity. Hardly a time of crisis.

I don't know, Bane had a little bit of a spree in there.

Gordon pretty clearly knew something was up. You know, armed mercenaries and whatnot.

It was obviously important enough for them to feel that sending a ton of cops underground to search/deal with it was warranted, so yes, it was apparently a time of crisis.

And to that I counter...in Batman 89, the police doing NOTHING and allowing The Joker to conduct a parade right in the middle of the city after he's already well-established as a homicidal maniac that's been poisoning Gotham.

That's easy to explain. They were being depicted as stupid. And greedy. All of Gotham was. The Joker in BATMAN was a homicidal madman and a terrorist, but when he promised money, Gotham turned out in droves. The people of Gotham were supposed to be portrayed as such in that scene. Its not stupid to show a group of people being stupid when they're supposed to be seen as stupid.

I don't think the cops in TDKR were neccessarily supposed to look completely incompetent. They were supposed to look like they'd been outsmarted...and they were. By a LARGE margin.
 
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The actual quote is
No more patrols, no more hide
and seek. Send every available cop
down there to smoke him out.
 
That's easy. They were stupid. They were greedy. They were suppose to be portrayed as such. Its not stupid to show a group of people being stupid when they're supposed to be seen as stupid.

I can buy it, but it's still pretty thin. Gordon wasn't portrayed as that much of an idiot in the film, he had every reason to take that as their opportunity to bring down The Joker.

It is, however, explained that the police in Gotham had become complacent and bloated in the 8 years and that Foley was acting out of pure political motivation. He wanted to be the guy to catch the Batman and take Gordon's job. Catching the Stock Exchange robbers wouldn't have done that for him.
 
No, because you're confusing "suspension of disbelief" moments, which ALL films have, in some cases, comparing elements of films that are SUPPOSED to be a little bit cheesy, with characters doing dumb, dumb, dumb things just to create a melodramatic plot point in a film that is supposed to be "grounded".

The irony in this statement...
 
Like Bane said, victory had defeated Batman. It also defeated the GCPD, who had become complacent as BatLobsterRises said. I know people think Foley's character was pointless, but he was meant to exemplify the shifting attitude of the GCPD. Foley was a little too concerned with career advancement.

The GCPD was simply not ready for what Bane brought them. After putting all the criminals behind bars under the Dent Act, they were not equipped to deal with a major threat. The same applies to Gordon, and it was oversight on all their parts to make the bulk of the police force vulnerable and send them into a trap.
 
but seriously, were there really NO female cops? other than Selina and Miranda, i don't recall seeing any females except as maids.:oldrazz:

There was a female officer who was highlighted in at least two (my memory's telling me two, but there could have been a third) reactionary shots during the Batpod/Cops chase, when Bats was standing and surrounded. Her last shot was watching him zip by her as he prepared to shoot up the ramp and onto the next street.
 
There was a female officer who was highlighted in at least two (my memory's telling me two, but there could have been a third) reactionary shots during the Batpod/Cops chase, when Bats was standing and surrounded. Her last shot was watching him zip by her as he prepared to shoot up the ramp and onto the next street.

Eaten.
 
Since this is a general discussion thread, time for a general statement.

This movie is awesome. Flawed? Sure. But it has its own set of strengths that make it completely indispensable to me in the context of the whole series. I think the trilogy is greater than the sum of its parts and that's the best compliment I could give it. And TDKR feels the most like a Batman film to me out of all them. Emotionally, it just had me more than the other two by a fairly wide margin. I marvel at the sheer scale and audacity of it, even if it doesn't necessarily hit a bullseye on everything it's reaching for. It still gets me there. It really struck me on my fourth viewing how much I adore the movie. People complain about the first hour being too slow, I disagree. I thought the pacing was wonderful...it just sucks you right back into the romanticism of Batman Begins, but set in the post-TDK world. I loved how much you could feel the weight of the end of TDK. I don't need to hear them reference The Joker, because I see the state Bruce is in and I know that The Joker severely impacted his life in a terrible way.

Anyhow, I'm utterly satisfied with this trilogy and ready for the next take on Batman. I can rest easy from here on knowing that I got what I've always dreamed of (and much more) from a Batman series.
 
The actual quote is

I rmember hearing someone saying off duty and it may have been Blake or Foley. Ive seen it twice and am going for my third viewing next week. Ill pay closer attention to be sure.

I dont think Foley was exagerating, but if he is it would be better.
 
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Since this is a general discussion thread, time for a general statement.

This movie is awesome. Flawed? Sure. But it has its own set of strengths that make it completely indispensable to me in the context of the whole series. I think the trilogy is greater than the sum of its parts and that's the best compliment I could give it. And TDKR feels the most like a Batman film to me out of all them. Emotionally, it just had me more than the other two by a fairly wide margin. I marvel at the sheer scale and audacity of it, even if it doesn't necessarily hit a bullseye on everything it's reaching for. It still gets me there. It really struck me on my fourth viewing how much I adore the movie. People complain about the first hour being too slow, I disagree. I thought the pacing was wonderful...it just sucks you right back into the romanticism of Batman Begins, but set in the post-TDK world. I loved how much you could feel the weight of the end of TDK. I don't need to hear them reference The Joker, because I see the state Bruce is in and I know that The Joker severely impacted his life in a terrible way.

Anyhow, I'm utterly satisfied with this trilogy and ready for the next take on Batman. I can rest easy from here on knowing that I got what I've always dreamed of (and much more) from a Batman series.

I agree. And people forget the numerous flaws of BB and TDK. All three films are fantastic but not perfect. But I find that many (not all) of the complaints can be countered with reasoning and brief inspection of the film's details.

For example, the final Bane/Batman fight didn't need to be longer. The entire point of the movie was that Batman went from wanting to fight to the death to using his brains/skills and exploiting his opponent's weakness. He couldn't have beaten Bane blow for blow. This is was a big part of his arc, and I see something like that as a strength of the film showing a character's development.

In time hopefully more will appreciate TDKR for the great movie and conclusion to Nolan's trilogy that it is. TDK probably works better as a stand alone film, but TDKR just ties the trilogy together beautifully, both thematically and structurally.
 
Since this is a general discussion thread, time for a general statement.

This movie is awesome. Flawed? Sure. But it has its own set of strengths that make it completely indispensable to me in the context of the whole series. I think the trilogy is greater than the sum of its parts and that's the best compliment I could give it. And TDKR feels the most like a Batman film to me out of all them. Emotionally, it just had me more than the other two by a fairly wide margin. I marvel at the sheer scale and audacity of it, even if it doesn't necessarily hit a bullseye on everything it's reaching for. It still gets me there. It really struck me on my fourth viewing how much I adore the movie. People complain about the first hour being too slow, I disagree. I thought the pacing was wonderful...it just sucks you right back into the romanticism of Batman Begins, but set in the post-TDK world. I loved how much you could feel the weight of the end of TDK. I don't need to hear them reference The Joker, because I see the state Bruce is in and I know that The Joker severely impacted his life in a terrible way.

Anyhow, I'm utterly satisfied with this trilogy and ready for the next take on Batman. I can rest easy from here on knowing that I got what I've always dreamed of (and much more) from a Batman series.

Well said and agreed. :brucebat:
 
Since this is a general discussion thread, time for a general statement.

This movie is awesome. Flawed? Sure. But it has its own set of strengths that make it completely indispensable to me in the context of the whole series. I think the trilogy is greater than the sum of its parts and that's the best compliment I could give it. And TDKR feels the most like a Batman film to me out of all them. Emotionally, it just had me more than the other two by a fairly wide margin. I marvel at the sheer scale and audacity of it, even if it doesn't necessarily hit a bullseye on everything it's reaching for. It still gets me there. It really struck me on my fourth viewing how much I adore the movie. People complain about the first hour being too slow, I disagree. I thought the pacing was wonderful...it just sucks you right back into the romanticism of Batman Begins, but set in the post-TDK world. I loved how much you could feel the weight of the end of TDK. I don't need to hear them reference The Joker, because I see the state Bruce is in and I know that The Joker severely impacted his life in a terrible way.

Anyhow, I'm utterly satisfied with this trilogy and ready for the next take on Batman. I can rest easy from here on knowing that I got what I've always dreamed of (and much more) from a Batman series.

Noting left to say after this post. This pretty much sums up my feelings to a T.
 
I can buy it, but it's still pretty thin. Gordon wasn't portrayed as that much of an idiot in the film, he had every reason to take that as their opportunity to bring down The Joker.

Neither was Gordon portrayed as neccessarily in charge of every decision made in BATMAN.

Its the difference in contexts. In one, the cops are clearly shown to be less than competent, if not outright corrupt in places. In the other, they're basically supposed to be competent, but they're depicted as shortsighted, incompetent idiots.

It is, however, explained that the police in Gotham had become complacent and bloated in the 8 years and that Foley was acting out of pure political motivation. He wanted to be the guy to catch the Batman and take Gordon's job. Catching the Stock Exchange robbers wouldn't have done that for him.

Which doesn't make his actions any less stupid. In fact, it makes Foley like one of the worst, least compelling characters I've ever seen.

The irony in this statement...

Please. Wow me. I'm aware of the concept of suspension of disbelief. Explain to me how there’s not a difference between scientific suspension of disbelief and suspension of belief of police strategic idiocy.
 
Neither was Gordon portrayed as neccessarily in charge of every decision made in BATMAN.

Its the difference in contexts. In one, the cops are clearly shown to be less than competent, if not outright corrupt in places. In the other, they're basically supposed to be competent, but they're depicted as shortsighted, incompetent idiots.

Well yes, naturally they're different contexts. But in "Batman", Gordon was in fact the Police Commissioner, and he was able to lead the raid on Axis Chemicals earlier in the film, was he not? I'll give you, TDKR Gordon obviously fell directly into Bane's trap by sending all those cops down there, but this was a Gordon who had been around for some of the most turbulent times in Gotham, during which he was extremely reliant on Batman. He knew things were heating up, knew he didn't have Batman as a crutch this time, and he ended up making an overzealous error. There's also the fact that he knew Bane basically had a ton of men down there, and wouldn't want to send his force down there outmanned. From the end battle scene, it's clear that the 3,000 police were matched by a roughly equal number of mercs.

It may have been hasty and foolish of him, sure, but at least it's easy enough to rationalize (with film logic, not actual police logic). And I'm not even accusing B'89 of being less-than for the sloppy police work. I love the movie, it's amazing it turned out as good as it did considering all the Act 3 re-writes that were happening on set, during a writer's strike no less. I'm just pointing out why I don't think that TDKR has set the bar for police dumbness in the genre.
 
Please. Wow me. I'm aware of the concept of suspension of disbelief. Explain to me how there’s not a difference between scientific suspension of disbelief and suspension of belief of police strategic idiocy.

There is nothing to 'wow' in you. The Commissioner sending every available unit/cop to the sewers IS suspension of belief. It's no different than Selina Kyle falling to her death and being revived by felines or The Joker escaping the MCU so easily.
 
There is nothing to 'wow' in you. The Commissioner sending every available unit/cop to the sewers IS suspension of belief. It's no different than Selina Kyle falling to her death and being revived by felines or The Joker escaping the MCU so easily.

Or the first X-Men movie, which had every world leader gather for a summit...on an island. :dry:
 
It's like you guys totally ignored his original point of comparing movies that aren't supposed to be grounded and more realistic to ones that are.

Those movies don't look or act as realistic, because of rules that apply in those universes. While yes, Nolan's other Bat-flicks had moments where you had to suspend your disbelief, nothing was exaggerated like you'll see in other CBMs. It's more of Nolan's fault for changing up a LOT of what his other 2 movies tried so hard to setup ie. a realistic and believable universe.

One moment you hear people say "Nolan's Batman movies raised the bar, and put these characters in a believable setting that is very realistic", to "dude, of course it doesn't make sense/is exaggerated, its a comic book movie".
 
Nolan's Batman movies have never been realistic.
 
Or the first X-Men movie, which had every world leader gather for a summit...on an island. :dry:
LOL!

Sure, it's not "out there" such as Batman Returns or Batman & Robin, but IDK, I've never really looked at Nolan's films, even the first two and said to myself "oh, this is realistic!"
 
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One moment you hear people say "Nolan's Batman movies raised the bar, and put these characters in a believable setting that is very realistic", to "dude, of course it doesn't make sense/is exaggerated, its a comic book movie".

You'll also hear people complaining that BB and TDK were boring and marred in their own realism, and then say TDKR was just too outrageous.

Me? I think BB and TDKR are comic book films set within a hyperreality, with TDK being more of a crime saga/action movie that just happens to be a comic book film. All three films use and bend verisimilitude to varying degrees.
 
Well yes, naturally they're different contexts. But in "Batman", Gordon was in fact the Police Commissioner, and he was able to lead the raid on Axis Chemicals earlier in the film, was he not?

Yes, though if you'll recall, he had to be tipped off about it, and almost missed the operation. His cops were pretty much presented as somewhat ineffectual, though in a deadlier manner.

I'll give you, TDKR Gordon obviously fell directly into Bane's trap by sending all those cops down there, but this was a Gordon who had been around for some of the most turbulent times in Gotham, during which he was extremely reliant on Batman. He knew things were heating up, knew he didn't have Batman as a crutch this time, and he ended up making an overzealous error. There's also the fact that he knew Bane basically had a ton of men down there, and wouldn't want to send his force down there outmanned. From the end battle scene, it's clear that the 3,000 police were matched by a roughly equal number of mercs.

He ended up making a moronic error, as did Foley. It was just stupid writing for plot's sake, because they couldn't be bothered to cross a few T's and dot a few I's in the script.

It may have been hasty and foolish of him, sure, but at least it's easy enough to rationalize (with film logic, not actual police logic). And I'm not even accusing B'89 of being less-than for the sloppy police work. I love the movie, it's amazing it turned out as good as it did considering all the Act 3 re-writes that were happening on set, during a writer's strike no less. I'm just pointing out why I don't think that TDKR has set the bar for police dumbness in the genre.

Except that it has. The police waiting to see what The Joker will do in BATMAN because they've been promised a lot of cash along with Gotham, and being unable to do much in the face of a poison gas attack just doesn't really even compare.

There is nothing to 'wow' in you. The Commissioner sending every available unit/cop to the sewers IS suspension of belief. It's no different than Selina Kyle falling to her death and being revived by felines or The Joker escaping the MCU so easily.

It’s a level of suspension of disbelief that is inappropriate in the context of the film.

I can buy, in a film where a man turns into a big green monster, that his pants stretch.

I can buy, in a movie about a man whose face happens to catch half on fire, and where the final visual of the character depends on this “half burnt visage” that he might survive these wounds in order for us to achieve this.

I can buy, in a world where a man is a genius inventor, that he could create a mini arc reactor from the components he had to create a missile.

And I can buy that a man could fall into chemicals and have his skin turned white, and his hair turned green, depending on the chemicals. Especialy in a heightened comic book/fantasy world.

I can buy that stuff. And so should anyone. These are not logic issues…they are issues of belief.

I can't, as easily, buy that an entire real world police force would be that stupid so shortly after a terrorist action, in a film that tries to present a semi grounded approach to terrorism and a city and government’s strategic response to such. It makes me think the writers just wrote something forced and stupid. Its simply not a reasonable police action.

Especially since they know that Bane has potentially booby trapped the sewers, based on previous events.

Especially since Gordon knows that Bane, a fairly known mercenary, has men down there.

And what do they do? They walk in to search the sewers.

Its mind boggling.
 
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