The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - Part 138

[BatLobster]

Maybe I'm crazy but I seriously don't think this film's editing "issues" were substantially different than the first two.

People have been complaining about not letting moments "linger" since Batman Begins. It's just Nolan/Smith's style. Next, next, next, pedal faster.

For being Nolan's "jumpiest" film that has all these pacing issues and too much story, it's funny how it ends up being his most emotionally engaging movie to date (IMO of course). I really felt like I was with Bruce on his journey throughout the whole film, regardless of where the action took me. Maybe it's just a testament to Bale's performance.

 

[Marvolo]

Again it's not about seeing it coming or not. It's that when it came, it wasn't that big of a deal in the way it was revealed/delivered. For those who did know....we knew Bane was going to beat up Batman in their first fight, and it was still brutal...we knew that Batman would get a flying craft, and it was still cool. With Talia, you didn't feel it in reactions (there were none), whether you knew before or not, it was just the next part of the story at that point. It was a twist...technically..and yes a surprise because it was written as one. But not a very intriguing one. Maybe contributed to by, like you mentioned, Tate being a rather bland character throughout the film....and being jumbled in with so many other things that they were trying to throw at you summed up by character speeches.

Im not sure what you mean by Talia's reveal getting no reactions. It did get reactions from audiences. If you mean from characters in the film Bruce looked pretty stunned to me.

 

[KalMart]

Maybe I'm crazy but I seriously don't think this film's editing "issues" were substantially different than the first two.

People have been complaining about not letting moments "linger" since Batman Begins. It's just Nolan/Smith's style. Next, next, next, pedal faster.

For being Nolan's "jumpiest" film that has all these pacing issues and too much story, it's funny how it ends up being his most emotionally engaging movie to date (IMO of course). I really felt like I was with Bruce on his journey throughout the whole film, regardless of where the action took me. Maybe it's just a testament to Bale's performance.

That's why I think it's not an editing issue as much as a too-many-ingredients-fighting-for-flavor issue, moreso than the previous films.

 

[BatLobster]

That's why I think it's not an editing issue as much as a too-many-ingredients-fighting-for-flavor issue, moreso than the previous films.

I thought all those ingredients made a hell of a cocktail myself.

 

[Marvolo]

Editing and emotionality arent entirely linked to the point where the emotionality is critically dependant on the editing. The film could still have problems in editing which it does and still emotionally resonate with people.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I'd nix Blake or trim him down. Just because he was a hothead hothead hothead didn't make him interesting. And it was just the worst at the end. [blackout]I'M ACTUALLY ROBIN AND THE NEW BATMAN, WOO-HOO! Double-plus awesome.[/blackout]

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah i dont hate Blake but im not entirely in his corner either.

 

[KalMart]

Im not sure what you mean by Talia's reveal getting no reactions. It did get reactions from audiances. If you mean from characters in the film Bruce looked pretty stunned to me.

I mean no reactions that could be heard or felt in the big theater opening night, for good reason. Of course it's a surprise, written as one for the characters et al...just not a particularly good one for a viewer. It's like a joke that characters in a story laugh at, but it's really not very funny. I think if the Tate character was better developed and more 'invested' with, it would have helped because we'd feel more of the emotion of the betrayal....which is really where the impact should have come. But without that, it feels like more of a generic plot twist.

 

[Travesty]

I would've cut out Miranda/Talia, Blake, Foley and Holly.

 

[KalMart]

I thought all those ingredients made a hell of a cocktail myself.

Because they made us gulp down a lot of it...and really loudly. t:

I'd nix Blake or trim him down. Just because he was a hothead hothead hothead didn't make him interesting. And it was just the worst at the end. [blackout]I'M ACTUALLY ROBIN AND THE NEW BATMAN, WOO-HOO! Double-plus awesome.[/blackout]

Blake really ended up being more of the centerpiece than anyone....maybe even Wayne in a lot of ways.

 

[BatLobster]

Editing and emotionality arent entirely linked to the point where the emotionality is critically dependant on the editing. The film could still have problems in editing which it does and still emotionally resonate with people.

Still, many people accuse Nolan's films of being too plotty which leaves them cold emotionally. I thought this felt very much like a Nolan film, but packed that extra emotional punch to make the film soar.

 

[kthevs]

I see some people feel Catwoman could have been cut out. Does anyone feel it would have been okay if Miranda Tate was cut out completely, or was she too valuable in terms of the overall story?

That's absurd. She's the lead female and Bruce ends up with her. You can't cut her otherwise the movie loses its heart.

 

[Deserana]

Maybe I'm crazy but I seriously don't think this film's editing "issues" were substantially different than the first two.

People have been complaining about not letting moments "linger" since Batman Begins. It's just Nolan/Smith's style. Next, next, next, pedal faster.

For being Nolan's "jumpiest" film that has all these pacing issues and too much story, it's funny how it ends up being his most emotionally engaging movie to date (IMO of course). I really felt like I was with Bruce on his journey throughout the whole film, regardless of where the action took me. Maybe it's just a testament to Bale's performance.

I love all of Nolan's other films (and love TDKR) but there was some very abrupt editing here. I think the main was the *CUT* 5 months have passed. However, I think that was more to do with the shot they chose to show the 5 months (seriously? a bit of snow) it should have shown something else.

However there were some moments where it was just cut/cut/cut/cut/next scene. For example the hospital scene was just a series of cuts then "right done" next scene.

Like I said before it was the same editor as Inception which many believed should have won the academy award so it seem weird to have quite a few sections that just seemed cut off. I keep giving this example but it is the main one I remember they cut of the "about us" in Bane's prologue and in the film you can clearly tell it has been cut as you can tell that Bane didn't finish his sentence and it also cuts immediately to Pavel taling and it sounds really awkward.

 

[Marvolo]

I mean no reactions that could be heard or felt in the big theater opening night, for good reason. Of course it's a surprise, written as one for the characters et al...just not a particularly good one for a viewer. It's like a joke that characters in a story laugh at, but it's really not very funny. I think if the Tate character was better developed and more 'invested' with, it would have helped because we'd feel more of the emotion of the betrayal....which is really where the impact should have come. But without that, it feels like more of a generic plot twist.

Well thats a reaching statement seeing as your and a few others experiences are all you have to go on. Counting all the screenings and the thousands of screenings since opening night the twist/reveal could be considered a success with the majority. We cant know this for sure. I know both my screenings had strong reactions to it. Yours did not. See what im getting at?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I have no idea why "about us" was cut out. Someone explain that one...

 

[TinkerTailor]

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but of all Nolan's films I think TDK packs the biggest emotional punch. Rachel's death, Dent's descent into madness, Bruce losing his chance for a normal life, Gordon having to compromise his principles... it's one gut punch after the other, and it works because the characters and their conflicts feel real. That's what I felt was missing in TDKR... everyone felt like a sketch rather than a painting.

 

[Marvolo]

I have no idea why "about us" was cut out. Someone explain that one...

Usually this happens to shave down time through minimal unnoticable cuts or to achieve a certain rythem or flow in a scene. Or because the director wanted to convey something different. By saying "about us" it is a specific thing. By cutting that Bane is implying he didnt want Pavel leaking any info about anything in general. Its just a subtle change.

 

[Deserana]

I have no idea why "about us" was cut out. Someone explain that one...

Exactly my point. There was no reason whatsoever to cut it. It just made Pavel's line sound disconnected they didn't even fade Bane's voice at the end.

 

[KalMart]

Well thats a reaching statement seeing as your and a few others experiences are all you have to go on. Counting all the screenings and the thousands of screenings since opening night the twist/reveal could be considered a success with the majority. We cant know this for sure. I know both my screenings had strong reactions to it. Yours did not. See what im getting at?

No actually, I'm going on what the film provided. Again, you also said that you found Tate boring...that's a big part of it. You don't need to go to thousands of screenings for that. An AGAIN...I didn't say it wasn't a success in being a surprise like it was intended to be, or that characters in the film weren't surprised. It just didn't come off that great or impactful for many for the same reasons why many didn't find the Tate character to be that engaging. Yes, it's seen...but not really felt.

 

[Greens]

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but of all Nolan's films I think TDK packs the biggest emotional punch. Rachel's death, Dent's descent into madness, Bruce losing his chance for a normal life, Gordon having to compromise his principles... it's one gut punch after the other, and it works because the characters and their conflicts feel real. That's what I felt was missing in TDKR... everyone felt like a sketch rather than a painting.

TDK dealt with some very emotional things but I was personally more affected by TDKR.

 

[The Joker]

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but of all Nolan's films I think TDK packs the biggest emotional punch. Rachel's death, Dent's descent into madness, Bruce losing his chance for a normal life, Gordon having to compromise his principles... it's one gut punch after the other, and it works because the characters and their conflicts feel real. That's what I felt was missing in TDKR... everyone felt like a sketch rather than a painting.

Seconded.

 

[KalMart]

Exactly my point. There was no reason whatsoever to cut it. It just made Pavel's line sound disconnected they didn't even fade Bane's voice at the end.

Well, if you're judging it based on knowing it was originally there, than it's really not what they were basing their decision on. The question is do you think it was really missed by people who didn't know it was there before?

 

[BatLobster]

I keep giving this example but it is the main one I remember they cut of the "about us" in Bane's prologue and in the film you can clearly tell it has been cut as you can tell that Bane didn't finish his sentence and it also cuts immediately to Pavel taling and it sounds really awkward.

I can almost guarantee you that our ears pick up on that simply because we knew the original line. I thought the same thing, but if we didn't know the full original line, I highly doubt we'd have given it a second thought.

I thought the starkness of the Tumbler in the snow shot worked to indicate the passage of time. You have to consider that it's preceded by a montage that glimpses into the future. So it's not quite as sudden as one cut. The montage during Bane's speech already established what the following months of occupied Gotham are going to be like. (Btw, I love love love that montage with Zimmer's score there. Very powerful stuff.)

But if it's still too jarring for you, that's really not necessarily Lee Smith's fault, and probably Nolan's. He'd be the one to make a call like that. I haven't read the script yet, but it seems like something that would have to be in the script.

Sorry to be so defensive, I'm an editor myself and I hate seeing the editor unfairly blamed for stuff!

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but of all Nolan's films I think TDK packs the biggest emotional punch. Rachel's death, Dent's descent into madness, Bruce losing his chance for a normal life, Gordon having to compromise his principles... it's one gut punch after the other, and it works because the characters and their conflicts feel real. That's what I felt was missing in TDKR... everyone felt like a sketch rather than a painting.

I can respect that. TDK is definitely an emotional movie, just in a different way. It's more muted, but there's a lot of emotional weight to everything. TDKR is more overtly emotional.

 

[TinkerTailor]

Usually this happens to shave down time through minimal unnoticable cuts or to achieve a certain rythem or flow in a scene. Or because the director wanted to convey something different. By saying "about us" it is a specific thing. By cutting that Bane is implying he didnt want Pavel leaking any info about anything in general. Its just a subtle change.

Yeah I actually think this change makes sense. The prologue implied that Bane was worried about what Pavel had spilled about Bane's organisation, but in TDKR I felt the implication was Bane making sure Pavel hadn't revealed his method for arming/disarming the bomb to anyone else. Bane's plan would have been useless if Pavel had passed on his knowledge to the CIA. It's a subtle change, but it works for me.

 

[KalMart]

Maybe I'm the crazy one here but of all Nolan's films I think TDK packs the biggest emotional punch. Rachel's death, Dent's descent into madness, Bruce losing his chance for a normal life, Gordon having to compromise his principles... it's one gut punch after the other, and it works because the characters and their conflicts feel real. That's what I felt was missing in TDKR... everyone felt like a sketch rather than a painting.

I also agree....and it was the best script/film of the three. Aside from the fun we had in seeing Ledger's Joker, I think we also felt more dread and overall involvement/immersion with the storyline. But especially when Gordon is pleading for his son's life, there is a sense of everyone sort of facing up for their mistakes along the way, for trusting the wrong people and such. It was a smaller story than TDKR, but also more intimate. We 'lived' more of TDK, whereas we watched more of it happen in TDKR.