The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - Part 141

[The Joker]

Alfred addresses to Bruce why he cant live a normal life.

Alfred: And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl, but you didn't move on, you never went to find a life, to find someone...

Alfred addresses that Bruce didn't even try to find one. It would be one thing if Bruce had been able to move on from Rachel's death and make an attempt to start a normal life, but he didn't. Hence this whole exchange here.

It was not about trying to find a normal life, it was about being willing to try at all. Bruce never did. That's why Alfred was telling him he needs to accept he lost Rachel and move on because that's part of life. He needs to try to find someone else. But Bruce's mentality is he can't move on, and he thinks Rachel died feeling the same way. That's why he never even tried.

 

[Uroboric Forms]

Isn't Robin a girls name anyway?

I don't know, the whole Blake thing will probably never sit right with me. It's the one element of Nolan's trilogy that makes it less than perfect.

 

[Tequilla]

Alfred: And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl, but you didn't move on, you never went to find a life, to find someone...

Alfred addresses that Bruce didn't even try to find one. It would be one thing if Bruce had been able to move on from Rachel's death and make an attempt to start a normal life, but he didn't. Hence this whole exchange here.

It was not about trying to find a normal life, it was about being willing to try at all. Bruce never did. That's why Alfred was telling him he needs to accept he lost Rachel and move on because that's part of life. He needs to try to find someone else. But Bruce's mentality is he can't move on, and he thinks Rachel died feeling the same way. That's why he never even tried.

I'll bold the other part...."to find someone"

This was Alfred response when he said "there's nothing out there for me".

Bruce Wayne was involved in this crazy project to save the whole friggin world. The typical megalomania we would expect from a billionaire that fights thugs. And he fails. That is trying to live. Not the normal way , like Alfred addresses. Why ? Because he cant move on.

(i dont think we have such a different interpretation)

 

[Anita18]

Alfred: And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl, but you didn't move on, you never went to find a life, to find someone...

Alfred addresses that Bruce didn't even try to find one. It would be one thing if Bruce had been able to move on from Rachel's death and make an attempt to start a normal life, but he didn't. Hence this whole exchange here.

It was not about trying to find a normal life, it was about being willing to try at all. Bruce never did. That's why Alfred was telling him he needs to accept he lost Rachel and move on because that's part of life. He needs to try to find someone else. But Bruce's mentality is he can't move on, and he thinks Rachel died feeling the same way. That's why he never even tried.

It's possible that Alfred was still taking into account the reactor project. Bruce couldn't be Batman, so he put his heart and soul into the clean energy project. He's essentially Batman, but in the daytime.

Just because he put up the cape and cowl, doesn't mean he automatically went on to find a life outside of his heroics. There are real life people who pin all their identity into their work, too. And go through similar shakeups (maybe not as dramatic if they don't have Wayne's financial resources, or Alfred) when their job fails them.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Well, let's look at some stuff that got omitted from a later version of the script/from the movie. Changes are in red text.

The movie says:

ALFRED
That was then. And you can strap up your leg and put your mask back on. But that doesn't make you what you were.

BRUCE WAYNE
If this man is everything that you say he is, then this city needs me.

ALFRED
This city needs Bruce Wayne. Your resources, your knowledge...it doesn't need your body or your life. That time has passed.

BRUCE WAYNE
You're afraid that if I go back out there, I'll fail.

ALFRED
No. I'm afraid that you want to.

The old script in the trilogy screenplay book says

ALFRED
That was then. And you can strap up your leg and put the mask back on. But it won’t make you what you were.

WAYNE
Which was?

ALFRED
Someone whose anger at death made him value all life. Even his own.

WAYNE
If this man is all the things you say he is, then this city needs me.

ALFRED
Yes, this city needs Bruce Wayne. Your resources, your knowledge...not your body. Not your life. That time has passed.

WAYNE
I tried helping as Bruce Wayne, Alfred. And I failed.

ALFRED
You can fail as Bruce Wayne. As Batman, you can’t afford to.

WAYNE
That’s what you’re afraid of - that if I go back out there I’ll fail.

ALFRED
No. I’m afraid that you want to.

The movie says

BRUCE WAYNE
I see you haven't lost your sense of humor...even if you have lost most of my money.

FOX
Actually, you did that. If you funnel your entire R&D budget into a fusion project that you then mothball, your company is unlikely to thrive.

The old script says

WAYNE
I see you haven’t lost your sense of humor...even if you have lost most of my money.

FOX
Actually, you did that yourself. See, if you funnel the entire R and D budget for five years into a fusion project that you then mothball, your company is unlikely to thrive.

 

[The Joker]

I'll bold the other part...."to find someone"

This was Alfred response when he said "there's nothing out there for me".

Ok. Is there a specific point you're making there?

Bruce Wayne was involved in this crazy project to save the whole friggin world. The typical megalomania we would expect from a billionaire that fights thugs.

Investing in a clean energy project to help the world's energy crisis by give free clean energy is typical megalomania? It sounds very humanitarian to me.

And he fails. That is trying to live.

How is that trying to live or make a life for yourself? It's a humanitarian venture that helps the world. How does it grant him a normal life or any kind of life? It's just another business venture.

Not the normal way , like Alfred addresses. Why ? Because he cant move on.

Right. So Alfred's not even talking about the energy product here if that's not considered a normal life or any kind of life.

 

[Tequilla]

I dont know what life you have , but my professional life his part of it. Like Bruce.

The point is regarding his emotional bonds . He cant' connect. Alfred is telling him why.

My english is not great , but since when is humanitarian the contrary of megalomania ? What point are you trying to make ? Off course its humanitarian , with the same tendencies for megalomania that characterizes Bruce Wayne. And it comes to bit him in the ash.

 

[Tequilla]

Magnarthegreat thank you. It very clear.

 

[CConn]

This is thoroughly inane.

 

[The Joker]

I dont know what life you have , but my professional life his part of it. Like Bruce.

But Bruce's professional life at W.E. was never a big part of his life was it. He generally left the running of his company to Lucius. He would be asleep at board meetings, or playing up the playboy image to Gotham.

I don't know if he poured himself more into W.E. after he gave up being Batman. The script doesn't say. It just says he lost his money on a project he decided to can because it was too dangerous.

The point is regarding his emotional bonds . He cant' connect. Alfred is telling him why.

It had nothing to do with an emotional connection though. The energy project was deemed too dangerous and that's why he moth balled it. Any emotional connections are to do with a the normal life Alfred wants him to have by moving on and finding someone. I don't see how that pertains to a failed business investment.

My english is not great , but since when is humanitarian the contrary of megalomania ? What point are you trying to make ? Off course its humanitarian , with the same tendencies for megalomania that characterizes Bruce Wayne. And it comes to bit him in the ash.

Megalomania is a psycho-pathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. Unless TDKR stated otherwise, Bruce didn't want to do the clean energy project for any of those reasons. It was a humanitarian venture to help people. On the contrary he shelved it because of the dangerous implications of it. The world not being ready for it as he put it.

A megalomaniac wouldn't have such values or inhibitions about such a great power.

 

[Anita18]

This is thoroughly inane.

This is how I feel 80% of the time I check out a thread here nowadays.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

I think the reactor project was about Bruce following in his father's footsteps to help the city. They should have played it up a bit more, it's kind of on the periphery and it mirrors what they did with Talia.

 

[Uroboric Forms]

For eight years tho? No. A year. Yeah. A couple. Maybe. I just have a hard time believing Bruce would become a recluse for eight years. Actually I have a hard time believing anyone would do that, let alone Bruce. Perhaps I should blame alfred for letting him stew. It was the butler's fault as usual.

Going back to the problem with no one discovering Bruce is Batman but Blake. Bruce, who is a major figure in gotham, conveniently disappears from life when Batman disappears.

It was 8 years since TDK, 3 since he lost hope in the fusion reactor. 3 years as a recluse.

 

[CConn]

This is how I feel 80% of the time I check out a thread here nowadays.

It's a shame too. They'll be like one page of good conversation, followed by seven of pointless arguments over the most obscure aspects imaginable.

Then when you point that out everyone goes "humph, you're just angry because I disagree with you!" No, I'm angry because its dumb topic regardless.

 

[CConn]

It was 8 years since TDK, 3 since he lost hope in the fusion reactor. 3 years as a recluse.

Hah. He did kind of back into that one.

 

[Anita18]

My english is not great , but since when is humanitarian the contrary of megalomania ? What point are you trying to make ? Off course its humanitarian , with the same tendencies for megalomania that characterizes Bruce Wayne. And it comes to bit him in the ash.

It isn't about ego unless he puts his name on the thing. Bruce Wayne Fusion Energy.

I always did say that if I got super-rich, I'd built a hospital (or university) and name it after myself. That way I get to do the charity AND stroke my ego.

 

[Anita18]

It's a shame too. They'll be like one page of good conversation, followed by seven of pointless arguments over the most obscure aspects imaginable.

Then when you point that out everyone goes "humph, you're just angry because I disagree with you!" No, I'm angry because its dumb topic regardless.

I thought NolanFans had some good discussion going on for TDK, but it went thoroughly downhill after Inception came out. For such a thinking-man movie, it sure attracted the stupid.

 

[CConn]

Coming from you, this is quite ironic....

Eh, it's a different kind of obscure though. When I really dig into a movie, I look for things that add to the overall emotional/intellectual experience of the film. It's subtleties that actually change the meaning and the method behind the film.

When people really dig into discussing minuscule plot points, I just don't see the purpose. For instance, if you don't like TDKR all that much, Batman's absence being 8 or 2, you're still going to dislike the movie. Which is fine. I'm not trying to knock that. I'm just saying, if its not going to alter the overall quality of the film, I don't see the point in digging into it too deeply.

 

[TheBat812]

For eight years tho? No. A year. Yeah. A couple. Maybe. I just have a hard time believing Bruce would become a recluse for eight years. Actually I have a hard time believing anyone would do that, let alone Bruce. Perhaps I should blame alfred for letting him stew. It was the butler's fault as usual.

Going back to the problem with no one discovering Bruce is Batman but Blake. Bruce, who is a major figure in gotham, conveniently disappears from life when Batman disappears.

I dont understand. Who are you to define how long he would be affected by it? The fact that he WAS affected by it for a long time tells you how much of an impact it had on him. You don't get to create the rules on this... Once again it's a story, it's all meant to serve and strengthen the characters and themes. The fact that people consider basic story convention to be 'convenient' and therefore unbelievable is boggling to me.

How many classic stories have basic things you have to suspend your disbelief for because in the end it is stronger for it? The answer is most of them.

 

[bane]

WOW so much nitpicking over a movie...

 

[Deserana]

My computer would only load the odd other post so sorry if some of these arguments have been resolved but here is my take on some that would load

Im still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Nolan spends two films on bruce only to give us another origin story in the third and make a self created character batman. I like the film but its still a wtf.

I didn't get this vibe at all. If anything this was a complete no win situation for Nolan. If Blake barely got any screentime we'd all be screaming "He isn't worthy for the cowl we know nothing about him!" yet if he had too much we'd all be saying "where the bad place was Bruce who is this kid?" this was my top worry for the film (and turned to be true for most people) and IMO Nolan handled it almost perfectly.

He had just enough screentime to me and I felt he was a worthy replacement for Bruce.

Definitely.

It makes no other sense for Bruce to fix the Bat signal.

Just because he has Robin in his name or the fact that Robin soon becomes Nightwing as he's older doesn't really add to anything when this story is about Batman and passing the mantle down. Robin John Blake HAS to still be Batman for the story to make any sense.

Blake doesn't have to be Batman he could be anything. There is nothing clear cut that says he IS going to be Batman. We see him go into the batcave that is it. Bruce wanted to inspire to do something he didn't want to inspire to become Batman. He could just use his gadgets for all we know.

Did you even read what i wrote. Creating an 8 year gap that doesnt work within the characterization of batman so that a character can grow up so that said character can give bruce an ending. Naming him robin when he is batman. Having that character discover our heros identity from a single look and yet conveniently no one else can figure it out.
Blake says that Bruce came to see him when he was in the orphanage. We know he left the orphanage when he was 16. We also know that Bruce operated as Batman for around a year up until the end of TDK. This means that Bruce went to the orphanage at some point around TDK or a little after. Blake can't be a cop at that age so the character needs to grow up. Well how do you allow him to grow up and fullfill what is required in TDKR? Time gap inbetween TDK and TDKR. Eight year gap conveniently makes Blake 22-24. A believable age for someone to be a cop.
I didn't need to work on the script or be in the planning to figure that out. Without the gap Blake wouldn't be old enough to do what the plot requires.

I completely disagree with this. To say the only reason that the film passed 8 years was for Blake is just laughable to me. The 8 years done so much more than that. It showed Gotham in a better (fake) place, Bruce just lost Batman as hunted, Dent act... this film would have been a bad place of a lot different had it taken place a few months after TDK.

Blake was just a young cop inspired by Batman (well hinted at being inspired by Batman anyway) in BB and TDK Batman was around for a year if TDKR took place after TDKR Blake could easily have still been introduced, they'd only have to change a few things around in his backstory. 8 years just for Blake... nah.

I find it silly that some Russian guy writing a research paper caused Bruce to lock himself away from the world and lose his mind (even more) enough to be shooting arrows at the help. Rachel and Dent's deaths didn't make Bruce become a recluse, but Pavel did. It's wack.

It was a lot more than some Russian guy. We are never specifically told why he is acting the way he is acting why? Because its pretty obvious that it was the events of TDK that got him there. Bruce wanted to inspire people and stamp out corruption in Gotham and now its living on a complete lie I imagine he just wanted out of that world. Plus the deaths of Rachel and Dent and him losing whatever normal life he thought he could have.

For eight years tho? No. A year. Yeah. A couple. Maybe. I just have a hard time believing Bruce would become a recluse for eight years. Actually I have a hard time believing anyone would do that, let alone Bruce. Perhaps I should blame alfred for letting him stew. It was the butler's fault as usual.

Going back to the problem with no one discovering Bruce is Batman but Blake. Bruce, who is a major figure in gotham, conveniently disappears from life when Batman disappears.

Bruce was only a recluse for 3 years (Probably a resolved argument)

 

[Anno_Domini]

Blake doesn't have to be Batman he could be anything. There is nothing clear cut that says he IS going to be Batman. We see him go into the batcave that is it. Bruce wanted to inspire to do something he didn't want to inspire to become Batman. He could just use his gadgets for all we know.

"Anyone could be Batman."

Bruce Wayne created a symbol and that symbol has to continue; the symbol of The Batman. To say Blake could just use the gadgets is really tossing away what Bruce created in the first place.

 

[JackWhite]

Well, let's look at some stuff that got omitted from a later version of the script/from the movie. Changes are in red text.

The movie says:



The old script in the trilogy screenplay book says



The movie says



The old script says

Some of the stuff that was cut from this movie baffles me. The stuff about him failing as Bruce Wayne should have stayed in the film.

 

[Deserana]

"Anyone could be Batman."

Bruce Wayne created a symbol and that symbol has to continue; the symbol of The Batman. To say Blake could just use the gadgets is really tossing away what Bruce created in the first place.

A load of people dressed up as Batman in TDK and Bruce's reaction was that he didn't mean to inspire that, the point was that Batman could be anybody but not anybody could be Batman. All it takes is one person to step up.

There are many things Blake could do he could do ANYTHING the thing Nolan wanted to show was that he decided to do something.

 

[BlueLightning]

Yet all points to Blake being a future Batman. It just won't be the same as Bruce's. Think like when Dick Grayson became Batman on the comics. He was a different Batman, or Terry McGinnis in the DCAU.