The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[ThePhantasm]

It is bizarre. The explanation we get is that Bane is too psycho for Ra's LOS and that Talia just wanted revenge. Its a kinda meh motivation for the villains to be honest.

Sure, they preach a lot of crap about the corrupt rich but other than Dagget the "rich" characters in the film actually come across as rather noble. All that stuff was mostly posturing from Bane so he could attempt to create some sort of civil uproar. But the class warfare angle isn't really pursued in the film so it goes out with a whimper.

 

[BatLobster]

^ That has all been discussed and debated pretty thoroughly on here.

My answer has always been pretty simple: Decadence. The decadence of western civilization that Gotham is the ultimate symbol of. There's a reason Ra's calls it "the world's greatest city" in Batman Begins, and they invoke that again with the President in TDKR.

It's really not all that different to the ideals behind real life terrorism. No matter what, radical extremists are going to find a reason to justify their hatred. That's why Talia is doing this out of hatred and vengeance, but still cloaking it in the service of her father's ideals. And Bane certainly sees the supposed nobility in Ra's ideals, but he has his personal drive and ego in play too.

It's a concoction of a lot of things, maybe not as well defined as The Joker's philosophy. But it provides a great dark mirror for Bruce. Unlike Joker, Ra's, Bane, Talia and The LOS believe they are actually saving the world. It's all about that slippery line of taking extreme actions to right the wrongs of the world and how good and evil can quickly get mixed up in each other.

In fact there's a great character on the show Homeland that reminds me a LOT of Talia. She has that same blend of personal revenge and ideological reasons that drive her to assist in acts of terror, all while being a duplicitous double agent.

 

[The Joker]

Another thing that bothers the hell out of me: why the heck did League of Shadows attack Gotham again anyways? The only problem Gotham seemed to have was a lack of jobs according the goofy kid. A real problem and one that mirrors America today. But hardly the reason for LOS to be destroying it no? Crime seemed to be at an all time low thanks to the unconstitutional "Harvey Dent Act" that stripped the basic civil rights of every criminal down to their desperate minimum. The "Lie", the ultimate cover up of Harvey's true nature was only known to people you can count with one hand. Heck, it was so secret that not even the League of Shadows, of whom there are supposedly people in every level of every infrastructure, knew about it until Bane accidentally ran into Gordon. Other than that the police were well organized, if overpowered.


So......Talia attacked Gotham because of a lack of jobs, a slightly overpowered police force....and a law that they would actually support (that limits criminals' civil rights, Ras would love this.)? No wonder it all seemed hokey. Where is the iron conviction of Ras and the Joker?

Hear hear

I loathed the LOS plan in TDKR. It didn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Kane52630]

Wasn't it partially ...hell mostly vengeance as well?

"Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience. You see, it's the slow knife...the knife that takes its time. The knife...that waits years without forgetting...then slips quietly between the bones. That's the knife...that cuts deepest."

 

[kvz5]

It is bizarre. The explanation we get is that Bane is too psycho for Ra's LOS and that Talia just wanted revenge. Its a kinda meh motivation for the villains to be honest

That was just Alfred's version that he heard from the rumor mill. Bane probably just spread that rumor around. I mean who wants to let it out that the reason you were really kicked out was that your face just reminds the big boss of something that happened to his wife?

 

[ThePhantasm]

This gets to the issue. Is their plan vengeance? Class warfare? Decadence? Corruption?

Is the movie a new take on A Tale of Two Cities? Knightfall? The Dark Knight Returns? No Man's Land?

The answer is d) all of the above. And frankly, because all of these themes are present, no theme gets the attention it deserves. Its a mish-mash. The LOS, just like the film, are attempting too many different things at once.

 

[ThePhantasm]

That was just Alfred's version that he heard from the rumor mill. Bane probably just spread that rumor around. I mean who wants to let it out that the reason you were really kicked out was that your face just reminds the big boss of something that happened to his wife?

I think Alfred's version holds true. Ra's was always about "restoring the balance." Bane was about totally obliterating the city with a nuke, balance be damned.

Ra's was about a purging fire allowing the forest to regrow. Bane was about burning the forest down completely.

 

[BatLobster]

I think Alfred's version holds true. Ra's was always about "restoring the balance." Bane was about totally obliterating the city with a nuke, balance be damned.

Ra's was about a purging fire allowing the forest to regrow. Bane was about burning the forest down completely.

I agree with that, though I think they both believed the rest of the world would improve as a result. They were looking for the same result, but with different levels of extremity.

Joker was the only one who truly wanted to watch the world burn and didn't even think it was worth fighting for in any way.

Wasn't it partially ...hell mostly vengeance as well?

"Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience. You see, it's the slow knife...the knife that takes its time. The knife...that waits years without forgetting...then slips quietly between the bones. That's the knife...that cuts deepest."

Depends on how much you want to take Talia at her word. If it's true that it's "simply a reward for her patience", that means it's just a bonus and this is mostly about finishing her father's work and honoring his ideals. Though given the lengths they go to in punishing Bruce, I think it's more of a motivating factor than she'd like to admit.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

If the answer is 'that's what real terrorists do' then that's the problem. Real terrorists have laughably irrational reasons to mount attacks on the west. That does not a good movie and villain make. A good villain should have conviction and motivation that makes sense to himself. If he/she does indeed have pathetic as their character, then make it cinematically interesting. Talia is neither. I don't think Talia's league's motto is neither consistent with Ras nor compelling and interesting enough within the story being told.

 

[BatLobster]

Irrational or not, that's exactly the world we're living in today. Having that element in the movie helps a villain get under your skin a bit more. Again, I point to the show Homeland which deals directly with the issue of terrorism in every episode, and it's hugely compelling drama. In many ways the whole TDK Trilogy is very much dealing in a post 9/11 world. Goyer was drawing comparisons between Al Ghul and bin Laden back in 2005.

Ra's al Ghul himself was not entirely rational if you really look at what he was trying to do. It only seemed rational to him. And terrorists most certainly believe what they're doing is entirely justified and rational.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The problem is that Talia receives almost zero character development due to her late introduction in the film. Its hard to get a feel for her motivations, her relationship with her father, or even her relationship with Bane. Is her relationship with Bane that of lovers? Or a father / daughter thing? Or does she simply love Bane because he was her savior? Its all very confusing.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The League's goal is pretty simple to me: attack x to create change in the rest of the world.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Irrational or not, that's exactly the world we're living in today.

It's a film though. I want to see decent antagonists with logical motives.

It only seemed rational to him.

Good. That's the mark of a decent villain. Talia's personal feelings on Bruce wasn't given any time to bloom so I didn't care. And the reason of her broader plan was unconvincing.

And terrorists most certainly believe what they're doing is entirely justified and rational.

And they don't have a camera shoved to their face when they are internalizing their motives though. So it's irrational to us. If a film villain seems as irrational within a film as a real terrorist does through his broad actions you have a bad villain.

 

[Tequilla]

They attacked the city based on the same assumptions they had in Begins. The decadence of Gotham's society. Something Thomas Wayne and many other disagreed and fought back (the crippled city trying to lift by itself). Bruce is one of many during the city's history.

Papering over the cracks (dent's act) didn't hide Gotham's real problems , as we can see in the movie. From the major youth unemployment putting kids in the hands of terrorists , to the class warfare derivated from a highly unequal social stratification , to Dagget's intrusion in the city , and how people react to Bane's plan. It's exactly the same. Decadent. Corrupted. Waiting to be reseted , so that the New Man can be born.

It's also the city where the man who killed their leader was.

They basically had ever reason to attack it (please dont confuse me with a terrorist This is all based on their assumptions , not mines

)

 

[ThePhantasm]

I don't think rationality is the standard by which we should judge a villain. If it is, then the Joker falls under that same knife.

Rather, coherence and consistency are better standards. Is the villain's motivation coherent? Does it make sense, or is is confusing / underdeveloped?

 

[georgec]

 

[BatLobster]

The problem is that Talia receives almost zero character development due to her late introduction in the film. Its hard to get a feel for her motivations, her relationship with her father, or even her relationship with Bane. Is her relationship with Bane that of lovers? Or a father / daughter thing? Or does she simply love Bane because he was her savior? Its all very confusing.

I interpret it as more of a big brother/savior thing. Though in this case, I actually enjoy the ambiguity. Sometimes leaving a few things to the imagination adds to the wonder of it all.

Talia's goodbye to Bane is oddly emotional for me.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I interpret it as more of a big brother/savior thing. Though in this case, I actually enjoy the ambiguity. Sometimes leaving a few things to the imagination adds to the wonder of it all.

Talia's goodbye to Bane is oddly emotional for me.

This is how I interpret it as well.

I dislike the "Bane was just a lovesick puppy" critique, if only because it has no basis in the film.

 

[StarLord]

That was just Alfred's version that he heard from the rumor mill. Bane probably just spread that rumor around.

Talia also tells Bruce that he was excommunicated when she reveals her true identity.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Talia also tells Bruce that he was excommunicated when she reveals her true identity.

kvz5 mentioned that...

She wasn't saying Bane wasn't excommunicated, just challenging Alfred's interpretation of "why."

 

[kvz5]

Talia also tells Bruce that he was excommunicated when she reveals her true identity.

I was referring to the reason why he was. Alfred heard it was because he's too radical even for the LoS while Talia said it was because Bane reminded Ra's of what happened at the pit. The reason could just be one of the two or it could be both.

ETA: ThePhantasm is a much faster typer than me.

 

[StarLord]

My bad.

 

[shauner111]

Absolutely. This is where things start getting highly subjective though.

I go back and watch TDKR Trailer 3 fairly often, and feel it spectacularly represents the film in a nutshell.

 

[JackWhite]

It's funny because the Talia character has actually grown on me with repeat viewings of TDKR. But seeing how she is practically killed right after her brilliant reveal and then she has that death scene, it's just such a drag.

It would have been cool to see Talia and Bane directing the troops together, just to hammer the point home that they were indeed a solid unit.

 

[Isearch4dope]

It's my honest interpretation of the scene. It goes back to the whole issue of the kind of story TDKR is. You say it's superficial. For me it's highly symbolic. Things aren't always spelled out, but there are bucketloads of symbolism and subtext.

The entire pit is one giant metaphor for the well Bruce fell down as a child. The thing that represents where he was right before tragedy struck his life. The thing that defined fear for him. It's almost impossible to miss (they make sure of it by flashing back). It's impossible for me to see him climbing out of the pit as not representing the return of a man, and a man discovering the will to live again.

Bruce's motivation is to get out and save Gotham, yes (the fact that he calls it "my city" shows that he's still in touch with the Wayne legacy, and has been the whole time even as Batman). But it's the fact that he has to let go and embrace the thing he's been pushing back and trying to manipulate the whole time (fear) that makes him whole again.

I really don't feel I'm making stuff up. That is the movie I saw, that is why I get emotional when I watch the scene.

Symbolic indeed and I will agree that when he scales the pit he represents a young Bruce Wayne full of life but he didn't die after his fall into the well. Bruce Wayne died the night his parents were murdered and bats are what truly defined his fear (bats are also partly responsible for the death of his parents) which he already conquered (BB) and not the well directly. See for me the well and pit are only symbolic in that they represent the fall into darkness/defeat and not the fear. He was frightened from the fall and being alone in the darkness down there but the bat is what truly struck fear into him and they were flashed on screen when he begged to leave the theatre which led to the murder of his parents and him dying as Bruce. For me he was already pass fear from BB and having him want to live again by finding it the way they did wasn't appropriate. You can say Bruce did not lose his will to live and kill himself because of the bats...it was because of losing his parents so to properly make him want to live again by finding fear (remember he already conquered it) they should have made him come to a realization that he can't directly find fear again by making a simple jump without rope. The way he would achieve this is by realizing that Bruce full of life died the night his parents died and the only way he can become alive again (normal person with fear) is to let go of the pain of their deaths and let their memory live on through him not as batman but as Bruce Wayne. He will don the suit to save Gotham one last time in a way to clean up the consequences sprung from that fear.