The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[the last son]

I guess i'm just the only one here truly not a Nolan fan. I enjoyed begins, tdk, and inception. memento, prestige, and tdkr just didn't do it for me. Nolan movies are usually snorefest

 

[Kane52630]

Wow. You really rate Batman and Robin.

Yeah I know, happens sometimes when you like something that's apparently not popular to like.

 

[BatLobster]

I guess i'm just the only one here truly not a Nolan fan. I enjoyed begins, tdk, and inception. memento, prestige, and tdkr just didn't do it for me. Nolan movies are usually snorefest

Lol, you realize you just said you enjoyed 5 out of 7 of his Hollywood films right?

 

[kvz5]

Before this thread gets too heated....

Just curious, where would you guys rank all the Bat films?

Batman Begins
Mask of the Phantasm
The Dark Knight
The Dark Knight Rises
Batman Returns
Batman Forever
Batman 89
Batman 66
Batman & Robin

 

[shauner111]

TDKR (sometimes I swap the first and second spots)
TDK
BB
B89
Batman Forever
Batman Returns
Batman & Robin

Mask of the Phantasm and both parts of The Dark Knight Returns are some of my favs as well. But I wont throw them into the list.

I'm glad people are criticizing the acting. Hardy was nowhere near as good as people say. Anne was miscast and couldn't sell me on her character. Caine, bale, and Levitt were ok.

Caine and Bale were just OK? Especially Caine? Yikes. If Caine's acting was just OK for a small role like Alfred, then I wonder what your standards are for such a role.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Ranking the Batfilms again? Lol.

Live-action:

1.) The Dark Knight Rises
2.) The Dark Knight
3.) Batman Begins
4.) Batman '89
5.) Batman Returns
6.) Batman Forever
7.) Batman & Robin
8.) Batman '66

Animated:

1.) The Dark Knight Returns I & II
2.) Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
3.) Batman: Under the Red Hood
4.) Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero
5.) Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
6.) The Batman vs Dracula
7.) Batman: Year One
8.) Batman: Gotham Knight
9.) Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman

You said, and I quote, a good chunk of the people who were unhappy with TDKR disliked it because it wasn't TDK 2.0. Considering how polarizing TDKR is that is loads of people.

Unless you're going to argue TDKR doesn't have lots of detractors.

A good chunk of the few people that disliked it. I will have to remember that I'm going to have to be as detailed as I can towards you now

Oh it was only in one thread now? I thought it was happening everywhere when the movie was released. You change your story as much as Joker does about his scars

Oh, good Lord

When I started to take notice of the comparisons, it was one thread.

Comparisons. Now that is something entirely different. Drawing comparisons between the sequels is very normal. That doesn't mean people want a carbon copy of the previous movie.

TDKR being a TDK 2.0 wouldn't be an EXACT carbon copy either since you're doing a sequel as well as using different villains, but the idea of a '2.0' would mean storywise to be somewhat similar and not be so big on scope.

People have bent over backwards to list and explain the flaws and problems they had with this movie. The last several pages of this thread alone are a beautiful example of some of it. It's fine if you don't agree with their views, buy you have the gall to say they're basing it on nothing.

That's ignorance.

What's ignorant is not understanding the topic at hand anymore. Listing complaints and their views is far from stating Nolan had no heart when working on TDKR. Spider-Man 2 has problems as well, but it would be as ignorant to say Raimi had no heart in S-M 2 as it is to say Nolan had no heart when working on TDKR.

For the umpteenth time nobody is stating it as an undeniable fact. It's an opinion based on the lower quality of the movie. They look at the flaws, how the movie falls short of it's predecessors, and they feel Nolan was not as invested in it as he was in the previous two. That's what you can't seem to comprehend.

Ahh, you finally say that is opinion as well, and just as mine was as too. Good job, Joker. Now if you can just relax and be fine with the idea that I and others, like Kane for example, have the opinion that some wanted a TDK 2.0 without trying to make it a big deal. Because it's really not. Just as your opinions doesn't cloud my views with TDKR, what I say shouldn't get you in such a tussle.

Your second sentence voids the first, but anyway, we are basing our opinions on observations. That's what criticism is. There is no 'concrete evidence' other than what is in the film itself. We have all seen it, so we all have the same material 'on the table' as it were.

As for 'wishful thinking'...that is just an odd thing to say. Is there anyone who really 'wishes' they found a film more disappointing than it actually was? It is more likely that someone who is determined not to be disappointed by something will blind themselves to its obvious faults.

Saying how they try to think of concrete evidence when it's just wishful thinking voids my statement? Huh?

I think I get what Anno meant by that. It's like certain people who have made that claim have difficulty accepting that perhaps, this is the movie Nolan wanted to make and was invested in making...so they come up with the rationalization that he didn't care as much. It explains why someone they respect put out something "subpar". I guess I get it, I just don't even remotely agree with it whatsoever.

As I've said, not every bad or mediocre movie is a result of not caring. It's reductionist to say a movie turning out good is as cut and dry as simply "caring more". I know Nolan has made it seem easy, but making even a halfway decent movie is no mean feat. A lot goes into what ultimately makes a movie good or bad. Sometimes things seem amazing on paper but don't translate. There's plenty of reasons other than Nolan not caring that it could have led to it being disappointing, if you found it to be that.

See, BatLobster gets it...well, he tends to understand my posts most of the time.

Gracias

I guess i'm just the only one here truly not a Nolan fan. I enjoyed begins, tdk, and inception. memento, prestige, and tdkr just didn't do it for me. Nolan movies are usually snorefest

You don't make it seem like his films are a snorefest if half of his films you like.

 

[The Joker]

A good chunk of the few people that disliked it. I will have to remember that I'm going to have to be as detailed as I can towards you now

A good chunk of the "few" people? So let me get this straight. Now you're saying only a "few" people disliked it, and a good chunk of them wanted a TDK 2.0 movie?

Side stepping the fact that you're wrong about only a few people disliking it, if your hearsay was even to be believed that would mean only a few dissenting voices wanted a TDK 2.0

When I started to take notice of the comparisons, it was one thread.

So you noticed it in one thread, then saw it everywhere else? All from only a few people, too?

That's the line you're spinning now?

TDKR being a TDK 2.0 wouldn't be an EXACT carbon copy either since you're doing a sequel as well as using different villains, but the idea of a '2.0' would mean storywise to be somewhat similar and not be so big on scope.

So you're saying these "few" people were saying they wanted the same story as TDK but with different villains?

Do you even believe what you're saying yourself?

What's ignorant is not understanding the topic at hand anymore.

Where's the lack of understanding about the topic at hand?

Listening complaints and their views is far from stating Nolan had no heart when working on TDKR.

What do you mean it's far from stating that? That is exactly what they were saying, in an opinionated, not factual way.

Spider-Man 2 has problems as well, but it would be as ignorant to say Raimi had no heart in S-M 2 as it is to say Nolan had no heart when working on TDKR.

Considering Spider-Man 2 is one of the most popular and beloved superhero movies out there, and the one that pleases the fans most of all when it comes to the Spidey movies, it's no surprise Raimi was never accused of that.

Cannot say the same for TDKR.

Ahh, you finally say that is opinion as well, and just as mine was as too. Good job, Joker.

Before you trip over your own ego, I challenge you to show me where I said it wasn't opinionated. I'm blue in the face telling you that they never stated it as a fact, and you coming back saying the opposite.

Now if you can just relax and be fine with the idea that I and others, like Kane for example, have the opinion that some wanted a TDK 2.0 without trying to make it a big deal. Because it's really not. Just as your opinions doesn't cloud my views with TDKR, what I say shouldn't get you in such a tussle.

You can have what ever opinion you want, even if you can't back it up. That's where this whole discussion stemmed from. I challenged this and you argued yourself into a corner with a bunch of hearsay. The easiest arguments to shoot down are the ones that are baseless.

 

[milost]

Caine was over doing it in TDKR. I never felt any emotion when the character was on screen. In fact, when he abandons Bruce to "save him" I was hoping he'd get the axe, which is unfortunate because I loved the guy in the first two. Then there's that whole deal with the flashback *shudders*. Yeah, that's not Caine's fault, it's the scripts but Alfred is just so unlikeable throughout TDKR in what little he's in. It's a shame.

Caine and Alfred were much better in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight in my opinion. All the characters and actors were. Is there really any debate that Gary Oldman was better as Gordon in the first two films? Or Bale as Bruce Wayne and Batman respectively?

Freeman was fine though, he didn't really change.

 

[shauner111]

Caine was over doing it in TDKR. I never felt any emotion when the character was on screen. In fact, when he abandons Bruce to "save him" I was hoping he'd get the axe, which is unfortunate because I loved the guy in the first two. Then there's that whole deal with the flashback *shudders*. Yeah, that's not Caine's fault, it's the scripts but Alfred is just so unlikeable throughout TDKR in what little he's in. It's a shame.

Caine and Alfred were much better in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight in my opinion. All the characters and actors were. Is there really any debate that Gary Oldman was better as Gordon in the first two films? Or Bale as Bruce Wayne and Batman respectively?

Freeman was fine though, he didn't really change.

 

[regwec]

Here's another question: which was the most satisfactory sequence in the whole trilogy? Oddly, I think the moment where I most felt that I was seeing what I had always wanted in a Batman movie was in BB when the Batmobile jumped the river into the narrows, delivering Batman to Gordon as the last vestige of hope.

 

[milost]

With Loeb's line especially. Yeah that's a good one.

 

[milost]

. . .

 

[The Joker]

Most satisfactory sequence for me is the interrogation room scene with the Joker. It was the perfect clash between Batman and Joker. Good vs evil. Sanity vs insanity. Black vs white. Watching Batman beating the hell out of Joker, and the harder Batman hit him the more Joker laughed. "You have NOTHING! Nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength".

Sheer class.

 

[milost]

Mine is either the interrogation scene for the Batman/Joker interaction alone or the Bank Heist prologue. Everything about it from the dead silence in the beginning with the blue bat logo flames to Bozo being revealed as the Joker just really struck a cord with me.

I remember how breathtaking it was gliding over those buildings approaching the glass windows and the clown thug blowing that one out. I've watched it so many times I know exactly which window is going to get knocked out. The entire sequence building up to the Joker reveal was just really exciting to me. It was a great way to start the film.

It also wasn't a bad way to get me hyped that December for the long months ahead. I watched the bootlegs almost daily.

 

[Snow Queen]

Caine and Alfred were much better in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight in my opinion. All the characters and actors were. Is there really any debate that Gary Oldman was better as Gordon in the first two films? Or Bale as Bruce Wayne and Batman respectively?

Caine: Batman Begins
Oldman: The Dark Knight
Bale: The Dark Knight Rises

Here's another question: which was the most satisfactory sequence in the whole trilogy? Oddly, I think the moment where I most felt that I was seeing what I had always wanted in a Batman movie was in BB when the Batmobile jumped the river into the narrows, delivering Batman to Gordon as the last vestige of hope.

Bruce escaping the pit/well at last. After following the character in this trilogy for two and a half movies, it felt so rewarding to see him rise above his pain and set out to live his life as Bruce Wayne, the man.

I can only really think of three parts I didn't find satisfactory (Blake's explanation on how he knows who Bruce is, Talia's death - mostly just the performance in that scene from Cotillard - and the whole bullet reconstruction in TDK).

 

[milost]

Bale: The Dark Knight Rises

I much prefer seeing Bale in Begins, from a world weary college student to drunken playboy to the side Alfred and Rachel see. No contest really.

Batman is also superior in terms of appearance and voice. Everything about his performance as Batman feels right. It's like night and day compared to Batman in TDKR, they're almost two different characters. Bale didn't ham it up then.



And I agree about the pit, not about it being the most satisfying, but it being a good scene. TDKR has it's many faults, but I did like him climbing up that final time and embracing his fear when the bats hover around his face. It was a good moment with the music and everything. The cave sequence in Begins where he goes down there and the bats swarm him is still superior though.

 

[Snow Queen]

I much prefer seeing Bale in Begins, from a world weary college student to drunken playboy to the side Alfred and Rachel see. No contest really.

Batman is also superior in terms of appearance and voice. Everything about his performance as Batman feels right. It's like night and day compared to Batman in TDKR. Almost two different characters. Bale didn't ham it up then.

Fair enough and I would say Begins is Bale's second best (though none of them are bad, it's splitting hairs for me) but I was just riveted by the character arc and performance in Rises.

 

[The Shape]

Most satisfactory sequence for me is the interrogation room scene with the Joker. It was the perfect clash between Batman and Joker. Good vs evil. Sanity vs insanity. Black vs white. Watching Batman beating the hell out of Joker, and the harder Batman hit him the more Joker laughed. "You have NOTHING! Nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength".

Sheer class.

Hell yes. Amazing writing, acting, and direction in that the scene literally builds intensity as each moment progresses.

 

[Kane52630]

Here's another question: which was the most satisfactory sequence in the whole trilogy? Oddly, I think the moment where I most felt that I was seeing what I had always wanted in a Batman movie was in BB when the Batmobile jumped the river into the narrows, delivering Batman to Gordon as the last vestige of hope.

This scene right here....


[YT]8_pLh171d30[/YT]


Nothing has ever topped this scene in the trilogy for me. Pretty much the essence of Batman was shown here.

 

[kvz5]

This scene right here....


[YT]8_pLh171d30[/YT]


Nothing has ever topped this scene in the trilogy for me. Pretty much the essence of Batman was shown here.

That scene is flawless. Everything about it was just amazing to me. It's probably my re-watched scene in the trilogy.

 

[Kane52630]

That scene is flawless. Everything about it was just amazing to me. It's probably my re-watched scene in the trilogy.

Before my new smartphone, I always had Batman Begins on my old blackberry. Every time I go to lunch during work, I almost always watch BB and most times I usually start with that scene.

 

[Anno_Domini]

A good chunk of the "few" people? So let me get this straight. Now you're saying only a "few" people disliked it, and a good chunk of them wanted a TDK 2.0 movie?

Side stepping the fact that you're wrong about only a few people disliking it, if your hearsay was even to be believed that would mean only a few dissenting voices wanted a TDK 2.0

Of course only a few people didn't enjoy TDKR. That few counts as fanboys that didn't want a retired Batman from the beginning, because for the most of it, people did enjoy TDKR. The general audience surely enjoyed the film greatly and that's why it's only a polarizing film from CB fans. And seeing as fanboys only fill out a small demo, saying "a few" fits.

And that few wanted a TDK 2.0

By the way, I will continue to say this even how much you'd like to disown my opinion, lol.

So you noticed it in one thread, then saw it everywhere else? All from only a few people, too?

That's the line you're spinning now?

No, that's the line you're spinning because you seem to enjoy twisting words around.

So you're saying these "few" people were saying they wanted the same story as TDK but with different villains?

Do you even believe what you're saying yourself?

Yes I do believe it. And it doesn't really bother me if one poster doesn't agree, because there has been some already that HAS agreed

Where's the lack of understanding about the topic at hand?

You trying to compare posters listing complaints of the film to Nolan having no heart in TDKR when the two do not go hand in hand. If Nolan dealt with concepts you do not enjoy does not mean Nolan had no heart when working with the film.

What do you mean it's far from stating that? That is exactly what they were saying, in an opinionated, not factual way.

And so have I. An opinionated, not factual way. But, read above reply.

Considering Spider-Man 2 is one of the most popular and beloved superhero movies out there, and the one that pleases the fans most of all when it comes to the Spidey movies, it's no surprise Raimi was never accused of that.

Cannot say the same for TDKR.

Of course you can't, lol. I bet you hate the idea that both are two of only four CBMs to be acknowledged by AFI, huh? Or that the audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes is higher with TDKR, lol.

Before you trip over your own ego, I challenge you to show me where I said it wasn't opinionated. I'm blue in the face telling you that they never stated it as a fact, and you coming back saying the opposite.

Did I state such that you said it was based on fact, no I did not. Only once again using sarcasm that you continue to call out some posters' believes on opinion and yet you continuously claim what I am trying to say is fact when that is just...well, wrong.

You can have what ever opinion you want, even if you can't back it up. That's where this whole discussion stemmed from. I challenged this and you argued yourself into a corner with a bunch of hearsay. The easiest arguments to shoot down are the ones that are baseless.

Hey, I agree. As most of the posters who claim Nolan had no heart...they have nothing to back it up except for storylines and et cetera they just don't agree about.

Always the perfect reply, lol.

Here's another question: which was the most satisfactory sequence in the whole trilogy? Oddly, I think the moment where I most felt that I was seeing what I had always wanted in a Batman movie was in BB when the Batmobile jumped the river into the narrows, delivering Batman to Gordon as the last vestige of hope.

Just because of Batman: The ending to Batman Begins with the meeting of Batman and Gordon, the batsignal in shown, the reveal of the Joker card. Could really tell what's about to happen in Nolan's series.

Because of what Nolan was trying to create for his version: The ending to The Dark Knight Rises where the mantle is passed on to Robin John Blake while Bruce Wayne has his happy ending by moving on from his dark past of Gotham City.

 

[Kane52630]

I feel like there should be a 3 way battle royale thread between the BB (me and kvz), TDK (Joker and Shape), and TDKR (Anno and shauner).

 

[milost]

TDKR would be a goner. The Begins and Dark Knight teams would simply gang up on them.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Don't make me laugh bud.

That sounds like a great idea though...Team TDKR would dominate like the Miami Heat.