The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 145

[georgec]

Dude:

-Unconfirmed= suspicion.

-Vanished= ceases to exist.

I mean, do you understand what "vanishes" means? Nobody can make any kind of claims, cause there wouldn't be anything to claim, cause he...vanished. There would be no rumors or unconfirmed sightings, again, cause he vanished.

LOL you're arguing it's impossible that even one person in Gotham would ever claim to have seen Batman after TDK.

So, in human history, when someone has disappeared nobody has ever claimed to later see that same person, even though they're considered to be "vanished"? Never?

What if right now I claim I just saw the boogeyman outside my window? Does that mean the boogeyman was actually there? Does making a claim = indisputable truth?

This appears to be your internal logic. Therefore this discussion is pointless.

Oy vey, why did I bother?

I saw a few TDKR fans brainstorming and having a little fun with their imagination to think about what Gotham was like in the immediate wake of Batman's disappearance, and it turned into another poo-flinging fest.

 

[Travesty]

So, in human history, when someone has disappeared nobody has ever claimed to later see that same person, even though they're considered to be "vanished"? Never?

No, I think they're called "missing", not "vanished", like you keep trying to spin it. I've never heard of a "vanished person report", but I've heard of plenty of "missing persons reports". And again, "missing" means there is suspicion. It's not the same thing as vanished. Jesus!

This appears to be your internal logic. Therefore this discussion is pointless.

No, you're just coming up with loose examples that don't even make sense. Hoffa isn't filed under "vanished", lol.

Oy vey, why did I bother?

I'm asking myself the same thing.

I saw a few TDKR fans brainstorming and having a little fun with their imagination to think about what Gotham was like in the immediate wake of Batman's disappearance, and it turned into another poo-flinging fest.

I'm sorry, I can't read all of this post, cause there is too much **** in the way.

 

[georgec]

Your semantics prove nothing. Blake himself used the word 'vanished', meaning 'disappeared'. People often use 'vanish' to mean symbolic disappearance rather than an actual instantaneous physical act of ceasing to be.

My "lose" examples make perfect sense. You think that one second after TDK ended every citizen of Gotham was made aware Batman was gone for good.

It would have taken days, mabe weeks, until the police finally said, "Okay, he's gone. No confirmed sightings since ____."

It's not difficult to understand, but you guys are muddying up the discussion and making fallacious counterarguments to things never remotely suggested (that a false sighting directly implies Batman was somehow not retired).

 

[Travesty]

Your semantics prove nothing. Blake himself used the word 'vanished', meaning 'disappeared'.

Yup, which doesn't leave room for suspicion of any kind. I guess now "disappeared" means "sightings".

Definition of VANISH

intransitive verb
1
a : to pass quickly from sight : disappear
b : to pass completely from existence

2
: to assume the value zero

transitive verb
: to cause to disappear

My "lose" examples make perfect sense. You think that one second after TDK ended every citizen of Gotham was made aware Batman was gone.

No, just that Batman wasn't sighted after Dent's murder. That doesn't mean every citizen was made aware that he ceased to exist, just that there were no more sightings. I don't even understand how or why you came to that conclusion, but I guess that seems to be the pattern with your posts, so far.

It would have taken days, more likely weeks, until the police finally said, "Okay, he's gone. No confirmed sightings."

Ok, who cares about that? The point, is that there were no more sightings after Dent's death. Who cares when something was made official?

It's not difficult to understand, but you guys are muddying up the discussion and making fallacious counterarguments to things never remotely suggested (that Batman was somehow not retired).

Well then, show more proof that suggest otherwise other than your wishful thinking. I have quotes from Nolan saying he directly hung up the cape and cowl, Blake in the movie saying he vanished(not just missing or having some sightings), and also him having a direct injury from Dent's death.

And what do you have again? Suggestions that go against those things? Cool.

 

[shauner111]

Trav, cmon seriously. It's coming from Blake who is speculating (he has no proof, nobody does. especially since he wasn't a cop then) that Batman just disappeared that night because there were no confirmed sightings. What aren't you understanding? It sounds like you're reaching waaaaay more than we are to win your argument.

 

[Travesty]

Trav, cmon seriously. It's coming from Blake who is speculating (he has no proof, nobody does. especially since he wasn't a cop then) that Batman just disappeared that night because there were no confirmed sightings. What aren't you understanding? It sounds like you're reaching waaaaay more than we are to win your argument.

Then where is your proof to suggest otherwise? How is that reaching when you have the director and actors in the script saying exactly that?

Again, I would love to see how this is "reaching". Do you have quotes from Gotham citizens(besides Blake now, how foolish could I be to trust him) that say otherwise?

 

[BatLobster]

The point is, the reasons in favor of Batman being retired the entire 8 years since the night Dent died are pretty self-evident. It makes sense to believe that. No one would call you crazy for accepting that at face value.

I think I speak for everyone speculating here that we're just trying to play devil's advocate and look at the possibilities left open by things that were said and not said. It needn't be taken so seriously.

 

[shauner111]

When it comes to the word and use of "vanished" yes you're reaching.

Here's that quote again from Nolan

And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl.

In a sense?
Yes, he says that he's hung up his cape and his cowl during these 8 years. He's not being that specific. He doesn't say he hung up his cape and cowl immediately after TDK.

 

[georgec]

Nice try turning things around.

First, you missed my point once again that people sometimes use the term 'vanish' symbolically. Have you ever heard a sportscaster say, "That player vanished from the game." It means they didn't have an impact. It doesn't mean they literally disappeared. It's a colloquialism people use, even if a bit different from the strict definition.

You conveniently omitted the word "confirmed" from "...no more sightings." Hmm, I wonder why? Because it refutes everything you're trying to argue?

Robin Blake himself used the word "vanished" to mean that Batman disappeared that night. But it would not have been established that Batman disappeared until some time later.

It's not wishful thinking at all. You're hung up on the notion that people are trying to convince themselves Batman wasn't retired, when all they're doing is imagining how people reacted to it. This could very well involve people making false, unconfirmed claims of having seen Batman even though they didn't.

And now you've resorted to the straw man counterargument about someone trying to argue that Batman wasn't retired. Nobody has said that, for the millionth time LOL. You keep insisting otherwise. Your entire argument is established upon deliberate misinterpretation of what has been clearly explained and laid out over and over.

You're clinging to the idea that someone's saying Batman didn't retire and turning the discussion into something completely different. You're making a mountain out of a molehill and kicking up a fuss because you think someone is claiming Batman wasn't retired after all.

I'm not sure why the idea others put forth ruffled so many feathers. It doesn't conflict with any established facts at all. It's people using their imagination to fill in the gaps. I saw Anno and others' posts being twisted around for people to drudge up age old arguments about things not in dispute. All I've done is clarify what they were saying so that people wouldn't get so worked up over thinking that someone's trying to claim Batman wasn't retired.

Yet, I see now what I have to become to dispel these fallacious counterarguments. Today I found out what I can't do.

For the last time nobody is saying Batman didn't retire at the end of TDK. They're saying it's possible people thought they saw Batman...in a dark alley...on a rooftop...etc. Their imagination. That's it.

Now if you'll excuse me I just saw Gandhi walking down the street. I guess he's not dead after all? Because we all know that when someone claims they saw something, it's 100% accurate. Nobody has ever claimed or thought they saw something that wasn't actually there.

 

[ThePhantasm]

"In a sense" means "not permanently." I.e. he could take up the cape and cowl again, which he did in TDKR.

It doesn't mean "oh I did some stuff after TDK and fought Mr. Freeze."

 

[Snow Queen]

This entire conversation..................just when I thought the most pointless discussion to ever exist would be the ten or six one.

Blake says that the last confirmed sighting of Batman was the night Dent died then he vanished. Is it so hard to believe in the possibility that the media or random people seeing things would say that they saw Batman. Unconfirmed, untrue, sightings. Blake may not believe them, hence "vanishing".

 

[Travesty]

When it comes to the word and use of "vanished" yes you're reaching.

Here's that quote again from Nolan

In a sense?
Yes, he says that he's hung up his cape and his cowl during these 8 years. He's not being that specific. He doesn't say he hung up his cape and cowl immediately after TDK.

Dude, you do know that you're quoting 2 different people there?


Blake said he vanished in the script. That's that.

Nolan said he he hung up his cape and cowl. Again, that's that. The "in a sense" is probably referring to Bruce still working on the free energy project, but again, even with that quote, it's blunt that he didn't put on the cape and cowl, which is exactly what this guitared debate is about. How can you suggest otherwise, when it's right there in black&white?

And who is reaching now?

 

[ThePhantasm]

This entire conversation..................just when I thought the most pointless discussion to ever exist would be the ten or six one.

"This entire conversation is so pointless!

...

Let me add my opinion on this pointless conversation!"

 

[Travesty]

You keep insisting otherwise. Your entire argument is established upon deliberate misinterpretation of what has been clearly explained and laid out over and over.

I would love to say how "ironic" this is, but I'm sure you wouldn't understand what that definition means, either.

 

[Snow Queen]

"This entire conversation is so pointless!

...

Let me add my opinion on this pointless conversation!"

Precisely!

Also, Joker said six, Elvis is living under a beach and Big Foot passed by my bedroom.

 

[georgec]

Is it so hard to believe in the possibility that the media or random people seeing things would say that they saw Batman. .

For some people, apparently so.

 

[BatLobster]

The funny thing about Nolan's quote is it that it was in the December 2011 issue of Empire. Yet even after reading the article, everyone was still debating whether or not Bruce would actually be retired for all of the 8 years or not prior to the film coming out because of the vagueness of that quote. I remember there were a lot of theories that he'd be active for 4 and retired for 4 after that article.

But yeah, I don't see what's wrong with georgec's claim that there could have been unconfirmed sightings by people who were mistaken or paranoid or w/e. Makes sense to me.

 

[georgec]

I would love to say how "ironic" this is, but I'm sure you wouldn't understand what that definition means, either.

Cool, petty personal jabs. The sign of not having anything substantial to say.

You keep insisting on things nobody has claimed. You keep pointing at the Nolan quote as if anyone is disputing Batman was retired.

So yes, by simple observation you have deliberately misinterpreted most of the discussion points to support your fallacies.

 

[Travesty]

Cool, petty personal jabs. The sign of not having anything substantial to say.

Right, I just learned tonight that when someone says "vanishes" they mean "sightings" and when someone says "hangs up the cape and cowl", that means "putting on the cape and cowl".

Thanks for the lesson. College was a mistake, apparently.

 

[georgec]

Right, I just learned tonight that when someone says "vanishes" they mean "sightings" and when someone says "hangs up the cape and cowl", that means "putting on the cape and cowl".

This is laughable. Show where I posted that 'vanishes = sightings'. Show where I said Batman wasn't retired.

It's funny, I said in almost every post that it's about people making false claims of sightings, not Batman actually being active. Yet you keep ignoring it and claiming nonsense like above.

This is amusing.

 

[Travesty]

This is laughable. Show where I posted that 'vanishes = sightings'. Show where I said Batman wasn't retired.

Good, it's supposed to be, cause I'm clearly not serious.

(but maybe from your perception, I am serious. Wouldn't surprise me)

It's funny, I said in almost every post that it's about people making false claims of sightings. Yet you keep ignoring it and claiming nonsense like above.

Right, and your claim was based on missing persons reports, which is not the same thing as someone vanishing. Again, missing=suspicion. Vanish=no suspicion.

I can't make it any easier for a 2 year old to understand, so I hope you do.

This is amusing. I clarified these points to prevent such hollow counter arguments, yet that didn't stop them.

Hollow? As what, saying that Hoffa is under some sort of "vanishing person report"(which isn't real, mind you), and equating it to Blake saying "vanishing"? LOL

 

[georgec]

Good, it's supposed to be, cause I'm clearly not serious.

(but maybe from your perception, I am serious. Wouldn't surprise me)

More personal attacks.

Right, and your claim was based on missing persons reports, which is not the same thing as someone vanishing. Again, missing=suspicion. Vanish=no suspicion.

I can't make it any easier for a 2 year old to understand, so I hope you do.

Erm, no. I never used the phrase "missing persons reports". I made a simple point that just because someone is considered missing or vanished doesn't preclude people from claiming to see that person. This is a very simple concept. Read Gotham Knight's post from above. Seriously, try it.

Hollow? As what, saying that Hoffa is under some sort of "vanishing person report"(which isn't real, mind you), and equating it to Blake saying "vanishing"? LOL

Please show where I used the words "vanishing person report". LOL what are you even talking about at this point?. You're making up things that nobody has said and using them to support erroneous claims while making the discussion personal . What was once about the idea of Gothamites making claims of false sightings is now about something else entirely. At this point you're just being rude and illogical with the words you're putting into others' mouths.

 

[The Shape]

If someone like the Batman "vanished" from the public eye, would we all automatically assume the dude retired? Nope, especially not right away and not after this person had been outed as a killer. Think back to when that cop killer (Dorner) was on the loose in LA recently. Literally hundreds of people were calling in, claiming (and often believing) they had sighted this man. I don't think anyone really did. At least no one reported anything substantial or "confirmed" until this guy took some people hostage or stole a car or some **** like that. He was obviously eventually cornered and killed, but if he was never seen again, would all of us have just assumed he gave up his tirade right away? I think time would need to pass before the paranoia subsided.

The script identifies the night Dent died as the last "confirmed" sighting of the Batman because it was. Dozens of cops literally watched his cape billow as he ran away from them into the night. These officers could easily corroborate each other's stories, that they saw the Batman. From that point on, however, I'd imagine there would be plenty of unsubstantiated claims coming from Gotham citizens while this cop killer (Batman) was still on the loose. "911? I was walking home tonight and I swear that I saw the Batman in an alley down here"...**** like that. Happens all the time in reality. People are paranoid when large-scale tragedies hit. I'd imagine the situation would be even more extreme if we were talking about a masked vigilante who had become somewhat of a "myth". These unsubstantiated claims clearly are different than "confirmed sightings".

So while WE know Batman really did hang it all up after that, it's safe to safe citizens of Gotham did not, at least not until things died down. I don't understand what's so crazy about georgec's speculation. Seems completely logical, if you stop focusing on semantics.

 

[BatLobster]

If someone like the Batman "vanished" from the public eye, would we all automatically assume the dude retired? Nope, especially not right away and not after this person had been outed as a killer. Think back to when that cop killer (Dorner) was on the loose in LA recently. Literally hundreds of people were calling in, claiming (and often believing) they had sighted this man. I don't think anyone really did. At least no one reported anything substantial or "confirmed" until this guy took some people hostage or stole a car or some **** like that. He was obviously eventually cornered and killed, but if he was never seen again, would all of us have just assumed he gave up his tirade right away? I think time would need to pass before the paranoia subsided.

The script identifies the night Dent died as the last "confirmed" sighting of the Batman because it was. Dozens of cops literally watched his cape billow as he ran away from them into the night. These officers could easily corroborate each other's stories, that they saw the Batman. From that point on, however, I'd imagine there would be plenty of unsubstantiated claims coming from Gotham citizens while this cop killer (Batman) was still on the loose. "911? I was walking home tonight and I swear that I saw the Batman in an alley down here"...**** like that. Happens all the time in reality. People are paranoid when large-scale tragedies hit. I'd imagine the situation would be even more extreme if we were talking about a masked vigilante who had become somewhat of a "myth". These unsubstantiated claims clearly are different than "confirmed sightings".

So while WE know Batman really did hang it all up after that, it's safe to safe citizens of Gotham did not, at least not until things died down. I don't understand what's so crazy about georgec's speculation. Seems completely logical, if you stop focusing on semantics.

That is completely sound logic. I can't see why anyone would try to argue against that.

 

[The Shape]

And I could be wrong here, but when I hear "missing person's report", I think of something filed on behalf of a victim. A missing child. A family member who hasn't been seen for several days. A teenager who disappears while on spring break. Things like that.

How can there be a missing person's report for the Batman, since he was never in custody and was also never even identified? There would be a "Wanted" posting, but the guy wasn't missing. The act of "vanishing" can also be willful. He vanished, because he WANTED to disappear, much like a magician can make things vanish. That is a part of the definition of the word, as well -- "become invisible or unnoticed" "to cause to disappear"