The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 146

[Carnotaur3]

That whole "gradual" process got hugely accelerated when Batman, Gordon and Dent hatched a plan to convict hundreds of mobsters all in on fell swoop. That was an endgame. That was a plan Batman was willing to hang up the cape for in the first place. The trials were still pending when TDK ended.

Absolutely! Dent was no White Shining Knight for nothing.

 

[The Joker]

It wiped out Organized Crime, not crime in general.

Really, so why was was Gordon getting dumped? Does regular crime not warrant a Police Commissioner on the force all of a sudden?

If you wanted to see the gradual effects, then you wouldn't have had the outcome of how Dent stamped out crime.

Sounds good to me.

Look, you have to give Dent's death weight in the sequel, otherwise, just framing Batman at the end of TDK is just a nice ending that goes no where.

I was all for Dent's death having some weight in the sequel. Just not THAT much weight. Nobody was. I'd rather have seen more of an uproar over the Dent lie being exposed, instead of the only reaction to it being Blake giving Gordon some harsh words about having dirty hands.

The Dent Act (as crazy as a concept it was) makes sense if only because Dent was doing crazy acts like that in TDK - The Rico case that brought 200 high level and mid level mobsters to court being virtually unprecedented. By not offering parole, these guys will never walk the streets again.

Yeah, but that makes sense in Nolan's world because he at least explained how it worked. He told us the premise of it and how they were going to use it to nail these guys.

How did the Dent Act work and so swiftly, too?

Absolutely! Dent was no White Shining Knight for nothing.

He had the White Knight nickname before he even made any multiple arrests.

 

[regwec]

I'm not ignoring anything. I got that Batman wanted Dent to be Gotham's new hope and hero with a face, but not to an instantaneous effect that Batman was suddenly useless the night Dent popped his clogs. Dent's rise to martyrdom, and the eventual decrease in crime should have been a gradual thing, where Batman was still active and needed, on the run, and not have been rendered unneeded that very night.

Nolan was never that sloppy. He didn't make Batman's effect on crime take instantaneous effect the night after he appeared in Gotham. Even after he took down Falcone, the underworld adjusted to his absence by filling the void, and adjusting their methods to avoid Batman.

That's one of the great things about TDK. It shows the gradual effects of Batman on Gotham. TDKR just skips ahead 8 years and drops some ridiculous bombshell that Batman has been gone 8 years because he wasn't needed thanks to Gotham being a utopia because of Dent and some phony baloney law called the Dent Act that magically wiped out crime lol.

Total BS.

Exactly. It was a huge contrivance devised in order to precipitate Batman acting out of character. It was also unnecessary.

 

[Ryan]

I guess we all just see things differently. Without the benefit of TDKR, I would have never have assumed that Batman would have quit after Dent's death. Its been done in other movies and comics (like Spidey) where the hero believes that they should quit for the betterment of all. The words that resonanted with me were Alfred's "endure, they'll hate for you, but that's the point of Batman"....and Gordon's "we''ll hunt him, because he can take it, the silent guardian, the watchful protector".

 

[Carnotaur3]

Really, so why was was Gordon getting dumped? Does regular crime not warrant a Police Commissioner on the force all of a sudden?

The Mayor thought he was no longer necessary. So they were dumping Foley into the mix. He was probably cheaper and easier to manage.

I was all for Dent's death having some weight in the sequel. Just not THAT much weight. Nobody was. I'd rather have seen more of an uproar over the Dent lie being exposed, instead of the only reaction to it being Blake giving Gordon some harsh words about having dirty hands.

So what would you have done with Dent's death. How would it have inspired and changed Gotham for the good?

Yeah, but that makes sense in Nolan's world because he at least explained how it worked. He told us the premise of it and how they were going to use it to nail these guys.

How did the Dent Act work and so swiftly, too?

What's there to explain that isn't already either explained in TDK or pretty heavily implied in Rises? The Dent Act was obviously something proposed and voted on. I would assume that's how laws and acts that are put into place work. And who would want to propose and follow through with an act like that? Try angry, upset, and justified citizens of Gotham speaking out and inspired politicians and lawmakers. If it weren't for the escalation of TDK and Dent's hope for the future, I don't think these people would be quite as willing to take those risks, but it happened. I don't know how else you could continue to explain it.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Stellar posts on this from The Joker.

The 8 year gap and John Blake are probably my two primary issues with TDKR.

 

[BatLobster]

I think the Dent Act fits in nicely with the whole "escalation" concept at play in the movies.

As a result of Batman's actions, first we see an escalation in criminal response in the form of The Joker. Then, we see an escalation in the law/system itself as a reaction to everything that's happened. If you think about it, none of the havoc The Joker wreaked in TDK could've happened if it weren't for such a corrupt system. Corrupt cops in Gordon's MCU enabled a lot of his schemes (including the one that wrecked Dent's life) to happen. It does make sense that there would be some sort of extreme response from the government in the wake of all of this, and that Dent's martyrdom would help further galvanize that type of response.

I was all for Dent's death having some weight in the sequel. Just not THAT much weight. Nobody was.

I beg to differ there. It's not that I wanted or expected an 8 year gap with retirement, it's just that I found it to hit the spot for me in terms of how I wanted TDK to be treated. One of my biggest concerns after TDK was that Dent's legacy wouldn't have enough importance going forward, so I was really glad to see that it remained important. If Gotham was still basically the same city with a nice Dent memorial, I'd be left to think Bruce made a huge miscalculation to take the blame. Because he'd still have a lot of work to do, and he would've made it that much harder on himself to have to take on the police and criminals all at the same time.

It's illogical. If after, say 3 years, the plan wasn't any closer to working, things were getting worse in Gotham and there was more escalation...at that point, it'd make sense for Bruce to contact Gordon and tell him that they need a new patsy for Dent's murder, that Batman needs to be cleared of the accusations due to some new "evidence" that comes to light. It wouldn't be all that noble, but it'd be the practical move if Batman was truly needed. They lied once, so why not again?

 

[shauner111]

I think others are forgetting that in order for TDK's ending to make sense in the context of where TDKR starts that the Dent lie would have had to have a positive effect on Gotham City.

If you recall, Dent was responsible for a huge Rico. It's only natural that after his death an even crazier act would follow by the authorities and politicians that were inspired by him. So the Dent Act was created.

Logically, the Dent Act made a killing. It would have to be if Batman and Gordon's plan for making Dent The White Knight at the end of TDK wasn't pointless.

And because Batman took the fall for the murders, that made him the last and only villain at the end of TDK's events and all through his retirement. That meant, before Bane showed up, Batman became the last known fugitive.

So the Dent Act works. Batman becomes unnecessary. Bruce sees this as his out, not because of Rachel, but because all the events that transpired led him to this decision with Gordon. Joker could not win, even if that meant he had to go away as Batman and let Dent take over.

And I assure you, if the beginning did not hit it home, Bruce still wanted to be Batman for years, it's just he was devoted to keeping the lie intact because he thought it better served Gotham more than Batman ever did ("Blood on my hands").

TDK's theme of escalation ends with the movie because Batman realizes that even though Dent did kill those people, Joker was right about one thing... it would not have happened if it weren't for him. Batman disappears, the escalation stops. With the mob taken care of, Batman is no longer needed.

So TDKR opens with the lie still in effect. And Bane is the answer to unsurp the lie, which is why he is put in place as reading the note instead of Gordon. Many had problems with this, but this was all about punishment. To have had Batman or Gordon tell the world that 8 years was all based on a lie, that Dent ended up becoming the bad guys he was fighting, wouldn't be quite the shame necessary to get them out of their heads and rise to be heros.

None of this contradicts Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

So the fans expected Batman to be hunted between TDK and TDKR but not realizing that if Batman ain't there, he's not being chased. Now, I'm sure police were following leads all through those 8 years. It was certainly now much less of a Joke(r) than it was in TDK where "the investigation was ongoing" with pictures of Lincoln and Bigfoot as suspects.

Dent was an honored man, for sure. The movie happens to open with the anniversary hosted by Wayne. People adored this guy 8 years on. So, it's only natural that the people that believed the lie, also believed Batman was a murderer. That would probably be the entire police force. And as soon as Batman reemerges, guess what happens? They forget about Bane and start hunting the Batman because they view nobody else as a villain. With the Dent act, they've taken out so much crime and built up so much confidence, that they consider Bane as nothing, which puts them in the hot seat later. Batman also undersells Bane, which is why he's beaten within an inch of his life.

None of this contradicts Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

"Gotham needs a hero with a face. Dent is that hero."

"Because I'm not a hero. I'm like Dent. I killed those people."

Batman is setting himself up to quit throughout the whole film. It's in the film. You can't just willfully ignore it. You can't name a successor and KEEP GOING.

Exactly!!

 

[Tequilla]

I think others are forgetting that in order for TDK's ending to make sense in the context of where TDKR starts that the Dent lie would have had to have a positive effect on Gotham City.

If you recall, Dent was responsible for a huge Rico. It's only natural that after his death an even crazier act would follow by the authorities and politicians that were inspired by him. So the Dent Act was created.

Logically, the Dent Act made a killing. It would have to be if Batman and Gordon's plan for making Dent The White Knight at the end of TDK wasn't pointless.

And because Batman took the fall for the murders, that made him the last and only villain at the end of TDK's events and all through his retirement. That meant, before Bane showed up, Batman became the last known fugitive.

So the Dent Act works. Batman becomes unnecessary. Bruce sees this as his out, not because of Rachel, but because all the events that transpired led him to this decision with Gordon. Joker could not win, even if that meant he had to go away as Batman and let Dent take over.

And I assure you, if the beginning did not hit it home, Bruce still wanted to be Batman for years, it's just he was devoted to keeping the lie intact because he thought it better served Gotham more than Batman ever did ("Blood on my hands").

TDK's theme of escalation ends with the movie because Batman realizes that even though Dent did kill those people, Joker was right about one thing... it would not have happened if it weren't for him. Batman disappears, the escalation stops. With the mob taken care of, Batman is no longer needed.

So TDKR opens with the lie still in effect. And Bane is the answer to unsurp the lie, which is why he is put in place as reading the note instead of Gordon. Many had problems with this, but this was all about punishment. To have had Batman or Gordon tell the world that 8 years was all based on a lie, that Dent ended up becoming the bad guys he was fighting, wouldn't be quite the shame necessary to get them out of their heads and rise to be heros.

None of this contradicts Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

So the fans expected Batman to be hunted between TDK and TDKR but not realizing that if Batman ain't there, he's not being chased. Now, I'm sure police were following leads all through those 8 years. It was certainly now much less of a Joke(r) than it was in TDK where "the investigation was ongoing" with pictures of Lincoln and Bigfoot as suspects.

Dent was an honored man, for sure. The movie happens to open with the anniversary hosted by Wayne. People adored this guy 8 years on. So, it's only natural that the people that believed the lie, also believed Batman was a murderer. That would probably be the entire police force. And as soon as Batman reemerges, guess what happens? They forget about Bane and start hunting the Batman because they view nobody else as a villain. With the Dent act, they've taken out so much crime and built up so much confidence, that they consider Bane as nothing, which puts them in the hot seat later. Batman also undersells Bane, which is why he's beaten within an inch of his life.

None of this contradicts Batman Begins or The Dark Knight.

Fantastic post

If anything Rises amplifies the great foundations of the last two movies.

I'm not a liar and say i expected this after TDK's ending...but the moment Dent's act is created (and as you brilliantly reminded , the rico situation was a typycal case preceding that possibility) the settings makes perfect sense. I love that the director didn't just follow everyones expectation , and actually amplified the reaction of the events in our main character.

Looking back at it , the 8 year gap was an amazing choice.

 

[The Joker]

Exactly. It was a huge contrivance devised in order to precipitate Batman acting out of character. It was also unnecessary.

Exactly. Nobody, and I mean nobody was walking out of TDK and thinking Batman had just rode off to retirement on the Bat-Pod.

I guess we all just see things differently. Without the benefit of TDKR, I would have never have assumed that Batman would have quit after Dent's death. Its been done in other movies and comics (like Spidey) where the hero believes that they should quit for the betterment of all. The words that resonanted with me were Alfred's "endure, they'll hate for you, but that's the point of Batman"....and Gordon's "we''ll hunt him, because he can take it, the silent guardian, the watchful protector".

Great minds

The Mayor thought he was no longer necessary. So they were dumping Foley into the mix. He was probably cheaper and easier to manage.

I know the Mayor thought he was no longer necessary. That's what didn't make sense. What kind of idiot mayor thinks a city that still has crime doesn't need a Police Commissioner unless the crime is so low that he really is surplus to requirements.

It's not like the movie didn't say that was the case with the crime levels.

Senator: "Has anyone shown him the crime stats?"
Foley: "He goes by his gut and it continues to bother him no matter what the numbers"

Blake: "When you and Dent cleaned up the streets you cleaned them good. Pretty soon we'll be collecting overdue library books"

So what would you have done with Dent's death. How would it have inspired and changed Gotham for the good?

The same way they did Batman's effect of Gotham. A gradual thing. Don't just jump head long into it 8 years later.

What's there to explain that isn't already either explained in TDK or pretty heavily implied in Rises?

Everything lol. TDK showed how Dent got his convictions, with the aid of Batman and Gordon I might add.

All we're told about the Dent Act is it gave law enforcement teeth in it's fight against the mob. Could it be more vague? And that Batman was able to hang up the cape the night Dent died. How in the hell did that happen, too?

Stellar posts on this from The Joker.

The 8 year gap and John Blake are probably my two primary issues with TDKR.

Thanks man

 

[kvz5]

Posted already?

http://blog.livedoor.jp/falcounderground-3rd/lite/archives/6654647.html

I think I saw the Heath one but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[ChrisB]

Posted already?

http://blog.livedoor.jp/falcounderground-3rd/lite/archives/6654647.html

I think I saw the Heath one but I'm not 100% sure.

I've seen a Heath picture with that guy from that same day/location, but this one is new to me. Thanks!

 

[BatLobster]

Anytime I see a new candid shot of Heath in Joker makeup but out of costume, it's really jarring and creepy to me. Like, I just associate that face so strongly with the character that it weirds me out to see him just being relaxed Heath while under the makeup.

Dunno if it's just me.

 

[JackWhite]

Posted already?

http://blog.livedoor.jp/falcounderground-3rd/lite/archives/6654647.html

I think I saw the Heath one but I'm not 100% sure.

Those are awesome pics.

I'd feel pretty awesome yet intimidated at the same time standing next to Bale in the bat-suit. Dude looks like a boss.

I love when more photos of Heath in costume pop up over the years. I really miss that guy.

 

[JackWhite]

Anytime I see a new candid shot of Heath in Joker makeup but out of costume, it's really jarring and creepy to me. Like, I just associate that face so strongly with the character that it weirds me out to see him just being relaxed Heath while under the makeup.

Dunno if it's just me.

Yeah, it is very jarring.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I've seen a Heath picture with that guy from that same day/location, but this one is new to me. Thanks!

Heath always looks like he was having a ball in the BTS pics. t:

 

[BlackFox]

Just watched TDKR again, damn that ending is perfect to the trilogy. The way Bats leaves a little clue to each of his friends so they know he's still alive, so good.

Not sure theres a better or at least more fitting end to a trilogy ever.

 

[The Joker]

I've seen a Heath picture with that guy from that same day/location, but this one is new to me. Thanks!

He so should have made a facial expression like that in the movie lol.

I love these kind of behind the scenes pics.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I've seen a Heath picture with that guy from that same day/location, but this one is new to me. Thanks!

Ha, that's great.

Was there ever any word about more behind the scenes stuff on the special uber trilogy release?

 

[Deserana]

Wow. That truly is not Ledger that is The Joker. Even off set and out of costume I still just see the friggin Joker.

 

[AnneFan]

Wow. That truly is not Ledger that is The Joker. Even off set and out of costume I still just see the friggin Joker.

This pic oozes Joker and it's just Heath off set. Pulling a funny face on clown make-up that looks chilling.

 

[Shikamaru]

Found this over in the MOS boards. Didn't know where to post it so decided to leave it here :

 

[Kane52630]

eh, that pic still irritates me.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It annoys me too.

 

[The Joker]

What does it annoy you guys?